S12 VH45DETT Build-Up

[Ezekial]

I own a Nissan S12 Gazelle

My plan is to build a TT VH engine

I know the VH41DE engine fits ...

I am still unsure whether the VH45DE engine will fit but this is the engine of choice given the slightly lower compression and obviously increased displacement!

The plan is to make 2 custom exhaust manifolds most probably running up in front of the engine and have the turbo's mounted there.

That way i don't have to worry about clearance around the steering ...

I am retaining the factory 10.2+:1 compression and most probably using a Microtech LT16s or Autronic SM2 ecu.

What ecu i choose will depend on what the go is with the factory ecu and what controls the auto transmission?

The engine is in a half cut so i will try make the entire dash unit fit and the selector etc ...

Given the high compression, the turbo choice is 2 x GTiR T28 ...

They are rated around 400 hp and i figure it should give a very smooth power band given each bank is around the 2 litre mark ...

I was enquiring if anyone knows a place that sells modified cams for either engine? Otherwise I will send them to a Engineering place i know of and most probably get regrinds on the standard camshafts.

My tuner seems to think 10psi should be enough to get around the 500 rwhp mark with the high compression

However, I really don't care about what peak hp it makes ...

After the car is running, tuned and the usual problems sorted out, the engine will be pulled out and a set of forged pistons static comp 9.0:1 and billet rods put in so as to get the motor really goin with 20psi or so up it!

Thats enough talk for now I guess ...

My questions to those in the know are ...

What is the story with the factory auto trans? Will i have to retain the standard ecu to control some things? Wiring is 2nd nature for me so i am not concerned about it but my first preference is to always run a stand alone ecu and remove any un-necessary items.

What are the weak points of the motors? I read about weak timing chain guides? From what i have read I am confident the bottom end will hold up no problems.

I also read that the head being alloy cannot stand alot of heat and someone said 1 bar/15psi was the limit ... I find this a little hard to believe given my runaround car has an alloy head and i have run up to 26psi without any problems ... 200 fwhp 1 litre ... surely 900 rwhp 4.5 litre isnt too much to ask

Thanks in advance

[Ezekial]

The VH45DE engine will fit so that decision is made!

Anybody have any ideas on the rest?

[PoorManQ45]

I am retaining the factory 10.2+:1 compression and most probably using a Microtech LT16s or Autronic SM2 ecu.

I havn't heard from anyone on here about using either of those ECUs for the VH. They usually suggest a MOTEC ECU.

What ecu i choose will depend on what the go is with the factory ecu and what controls the auto transmission?

There is a seperate TCU for the transmission. Jim Wolfe has a "performance" replacement for the stock TCU.

Also, if you are planning on feeding that much power into the Auto transmission, it would be wise to have it rebuilt to sustain the added power. Most people suggest Level Ten, I think they are based somewhere in New England. They have, I think, 3 stages of upgrades for the transmission. I think that you would need the stage 3, as that one is rated to 800+HP.

I was enquiring if anyone knows a place that sells modified cams for either engine? Otherwise I will send them to a Engineering place i know of and most probably get regrinds on the standard camshafts.

The members here have been unable to find an aftermarket company that sells cams for the VH45DE. The main problem that you are going to run into is the VVT (Variable Valve Timing). A regrind of the factory cams would be a wise choice.

My tuner seems to think 10psi should be enough to get around the 500 rwhp mark with the high compression

However, I really don't care about what peak hp it makes ...

That sounds about write. I think someone on here was feeding the engine 6PSI and getting 400RWHP!

Like you said, peak HP doesn't really matter. It sounds like you want a nice linear torque and HP curve. That is imperitive for a daily driver.

What are the weak points of the motors? I read about weak timing chain guides? From what i have read I am confident the bottom end will hold up no problems.

Someone on here said that the Rods are the "Weak" link. They are good up until ~400HP.

I also read that the head being alloy cannot stand alot of heat and someone said 1 bar/15psi was the limit ... I find this a little hard to believe given my runaround car has an alloy head and i have run up to 26psi without any problems ... 200 fwhp 1 litre ... surely 900 rwhp 4.5 litre isnt too much to ask

Your main concern will probably be with cooling. The stock cooling system was "only" intended to handle the stock output plus probably 100~200HP more. So, you will have to rework the cooling system to keep from melting the pistons and/or valves.

[Ezekial]

FOr a while there I thought i was the only member on this forum

I havn't heard from anyone on here about using either of those ECUs for the VH. They usually suggest a MOTEC ECU.

MOTEC is great if you an unlimited budget

Quote »There is a seperate TCU for the transmission. Jim Wolfe has a "performance" replacement for the stock TCU.[/quote]Jim Wolfe is located where? I am in australia ... any idea on the price of this upgraded TCU?

Quote »Also, if you are planning on feeding that much power into the Auto transmission, it would be wise to have it rebuilt to sustain the added power. Most people suggest Level Ten, I think they are based somewhere in New England. They have, I think, 3 stages of upgrades for the transmission. I think that you would need the stage 3, as that one is rated to 800+HP.[/quote]Interesting ... out of interest, do the VG30DETT gearbox's bolt up? Any ideas?

Quote »The members here have been unable to find an aftermarket company that sells cams for the VH45DE. The main problem that you are going to run into is the VVT (Variable Valve Timing). A regrind of the factory cams would be a wise choice.[/quote]OK ... regrinds were looking favourable anyway! Both ecu's can control VVT so thats not a problem

Quote »That sounds about write. I think someone on here was feeding the engine 6PSI and getting 400RWHP![/quote]Very interesting ... makes you wonder why you'd build a 2 litre

Quote »Like you said, peak HP doesn't really matter. It sounds like you want a nice linear torque and HP curve. That is imperitive for a daily driver.[/quote]Thats it

Quote »Someone on here said that the Rods are the "Weak" link. They are good up until ~400HP.[/quote]Eagles will fix that ...

Quote »Your main concern will probably be with cooling. The stock cooling system was "only" intended to handle the stock output plus probably 100~200HP more. So, you will have to rework the cooling system to keep from melting the pistons and/or valves.[/quote]lower temp thermostat + davies craig electric water pump + nice big radiator should solve any cooling problems i run into ...

Thanks for your reply mate!!

Anyone else care to comment?

[PoorManQ45]

Ah, SO you're from "downunder"!.

FOr a while there I thought i was the only member on this forum

You have to be VERY VERY patient in this section.

MOTEC is great if you an unlimited budget

Agreed. If you can get either of those other ECUs to work with the VH, that would be cool. Also, if you get one of them to work, could you please post a writeup or something along those lines you show us how to do the same thing.

Interesting ... out of interest, do the VG30DETT gearbox's bolt up? Any ideas?

I think people have been able to get the gearbox from the 300zxTT to fit the VH. It requires an adapter plate between the bellhousing and the engine. Also, you have to change out the flex plate to a flywheel with a spacer to have it align properly.

lower temp thermostat + davies craig electric water pump + nice big radiator should solve any cooling problems i run into ...

Those upgrades will certainly make a difference. But when you start putting out the numbers that you are talking about, you may run into a problem with the cooling of the cylinders. The stock cooling sytem was not meant to transfer the excessive amount of heat that would be created, from the cylinders to the coolant, then to the radiator.

[s13sr20chris]

i think cams are a bad idea if you intend to run t28's. just stick with the stock cams for t28's as the 28 is small and the stock cams are pretty hot.

the water jackets can only transfer so much heat. solution is to not be on the gas for extended periods. i think corky bell reccomends under 20 sec per burst. think of it like duty cycle on a welder. you get on it for 20 sec cruise for 2 min.

[PoorManQ45]

the water jackets can only transfer so much heat. solution is to not be on the gas for extended periods. i think corky bell reccomends under 20 sec per burst. think of it like duty cycle on a welder. you get on it for 20 sec cruise for 2 min.

That's what I was thinking of. The Water Jacket. I just couldn't think of the word.

i think cams are a bad idea if you intend to run t28's. just stick with the stock cams for t28's as the 28 is small and the stock cams are pretty hot.

Well, I was thinking that if he were going to regrind the factory cams, that would decrease the lift. Is that correct? I mean, material would have to be removed, that would allow for less valve lift.

[s13sr20chris]

That's what I was thinking of. The Water Jacket. I just couldn't think of the word.

Well, I was thinking that if he were going to regrind the factory cams, that would decrease the lift. Is that correct? I mean, material would have to be removed, that would allow for less valve lift.

nope, a regrind of the factory cams usually involves decreasing the base circle. i generally think this is an inferior method and would only do it if the engine was just a goof off project. i would NOT do it on any q motor.

[Ezekial]

Agreed. If you can get either of those other ECUs to work with the VH, that would be cool. Also, if you get one of them to work, could you please post a writeup or something along those lines you show us how to do the same thing.

Will do mate ...

I will make a detailed website regarding the conversion.

Quote »I think people have been able to get the gearbox from the 300zxTT to fit the VH. It requires an adapter plate between the bellhousing and the engine. Also, you have to change out the flex plate to a flywheel with a spacer to have it align properly.[/quote]Yeah no dramas ... i think i would rather keep the auto ... 500rwhp with city drivability

Quote »Those upgrades will certainly make a difference. But when you start putting out the numbers that you are talking about, you may run into a problem with the cooling of the cylinders. The stock cooling sytem was not meant to transfer the excessive amount of heat that would be created, from the cylinders to the coolant, then to the radiator.[/quote]Something to take note of ...

Quote »i think cams are a bad idea if you intend to run t28's. just stick with the stock cams for t28's as the 28 is small and the stock cams are pretty hot. the water jackets can only transfer so much heat. solution is to not be on the gas for extended periods. i think corky bell reccomends under 20 sec per burst. think of it like duty cycle on a welder. you get on it for 20 sec cruise for 2 min.[/quote]GTiR T28 ... they are basically a T3 60 trim ... i think 2 of these will work well ...

You can never have too much mid range power anyway ... but if the cams are as hot as you say then regrinds may not be necessary ..

Quote »nope, a regrind of the factory cams usually involves decreasing the base circle. i generally think this is an inferior method and would only do it if the engine was just a goof off project. i would NOT do it on any q motor[/quote]This is generally the view of those who have never tried re-grinds ... My thoughts were the same until I tried a set in my daily ...

For example, I got a mild street regrind without the need for new valve springs and 15% more hp was achieved and ALOT more torque ... also, power band grew another 800 rpm

Yes they take some off the base circle and with modified shims this gives an increased lift ...

Thanks to both you guys for your inputs ...

Much appreciated!!!!

[DAEDALUS]

Shims? Where would they go in the VH? Under the lifters?

[Ezekial]

Shims? Where would they go in the VH? Under the lifters?

I havent looked at the valve setup on the VH engines ...

My daily has shim over bucket (solid lifters) so it was easy ...

Everyone's gettin in on this topic now ... thats what i wanna see

[s13sr20chris]

i agree that the gtir t28's will work well(having not bothered to check a compressor map, im just guessing here). i think i would stick with the stock cams though thats just me. either way i would be interested to see this happen. let me just say that many people talk about vh45 buildups but i have seen a precious few actually happen. if this all comes together i really hope you update us.

[Ezekial]

i agree that the gtir t28's will work well(having not bothered to check a compressor map, im just guessing here).

Well giving each bank is a 4 cylinder 2.25 litre ... The GTiR turbo is on the small side ... but in saying that ... i want power on tap throughout the entire rev range ... nice and smooooooth

Quote »i think i would stick with the stock cams though thats just me. either way i would be interested to see this happen. let me just say that many people talk about vh45 buildups but i have seen a precious few actually happen. if this all comes together i really hope you update us.[/quote]Well lets hope it all comes together ... my tuner is ready, my fabricator is ready ... only thing stopping me at present is that christmas has come at the wrong time of the year ... $$$$

I appreciate your input chris

[450zxtt]

dont let the $$ issue stop you,go for it.chris has a right to be skeptical.many people talk on and on about building something with this motor.i have been driving the 450zxtt for a few months now and i am having a blast.

450zxtt

[PoorManQ45]

Wait, you are driving the what? 450zxTT? Could you please tell us about it, or direct us to a thread in which you give details.

[Ezekial]

dont let the $$ issue stop you,go for it.chris has a right to be skeptical.many people talk on and on about building something with this motor.i have been driving the 450zxtt for a few months now and i am having a blast.

450zxtt

Is your car a 300ZX? If so what model?

I have worked on a Z32 i think it is ?? VG30DETT ...

There is absolutely no room between the engine and strut towers!

What problems did you come across with your conversion?

OR better yet ... what problems with turbo conversion?

What ecu are you running?

Any information would be great!

Also do you run the standard inlet manifold or twins with an equal pressure balance pipe like the VG30DETT?

[450zxtt]

there are a couple of teaser shots of my car athttp://www.freewebs.com/axepower/"absolutely no room between the shock towers!", you say?450zxtt

[450zxtt]

move over to the right and hit web albums...you guys should stop looking at projects like this in terms of difficulty.look at your skill level,and determine it based on your confidence.i am using the q45 ecu.stop overbuilding your cars in your dreams.FOCUS ON THE SWAP,not the built motor.use a running stock motor to complete your swap and then build your monster motor.use the stock wiring harness and ecu and crank the engine.if you can get the motor you can get the ecu and wire harness.KEEP IT SIMPLE.if you have never got more than knee deep in your car,swaps like these may be difficult.if you frequently dive in...well,like i said,i am having a blast.we are considering selling copies of the adapter plate to mount the vh45 to the z32 tt tranmission,as well as an entire 450zx/zxtt swap kit.oil pan,motor mounts,turbo exhaust manifolds,stuff like that.anyone interested?

[PoorManQ45]

we are considering selling copies of the adapter plate to mount the vh45 to the z32 tt tranmission,as well as an entire 450zx/zxtt swap kit.oil pan,motor mounts,turbo exhaust manifolds,stuff like that.anyone interested?

Stop considering it!!! Just sell the darn things already. People on this forum have been searching for a way to make a Manual transmission work with the VH45DE for awhile. A few people would snap up the adapter plates if you sold them.

BTW, when I go to that website, I don't see any pictures of your car, all I see is a black screen with a drawing on it?

[450zxtt]

$485.if i am going to have this adapter plate built for you,i will need a deposit of 50%.please call me at (678)698-7426.my name is slim,i am located in conyers,ga.please do not waste my time if you are not serious.like i said,move to the right,and hit web album.

[PoorManQ45]

I'm sorry, I think you mis-interpreted what I said. I can't buy the Adapter plate and a new transmission because of financial reasons . But, I think that quite a few people over in the Infiniti General section would go for an adapter plate if you were to sell it for that price.

I suggest that you go over to Infiniti General and tell them about the items that you have made for the VH45DE. See there is enough support to warrant selling the stuff.

I'm sorry for wasting your time

[Ezekial]

move over to the right and hit web albums...you guys should stop looking at projects like this in terms of difficulty.look at your skill level,and determine it based on your confidence.i am using the q45 ecu.stop overbuilding your cars in your dreams.FOCUS ON THE SWAP,not the built motor.use a running stock motor to complete your swap and then build your monster motor.use the stock wiring harness and ecu and crank the engine.if you can get the motor you can get the ecu and wire harness.KEEP IT SIMPLE.if you have never got more than knee deep in your car,swaps like these may be difficult.if you frequently dive in...well,like i said,i am having a blast.we are considering selling copies of the adapter plate to mount the vh45 to the z32 tt tranmission,as well as an entire 450zx/zxtt swap kit.oil pan,motor mounts,turbo exhaust manifolds,stuff like that.anyone interested?

All i can see is a VH45 engine in a 300ZX ... nothing that shows it is twin turbo ... is there more than 1 photo?

[PoorManQ45]

HAve you made any progress yet? Please keep us informed.

[Ezekial]

Hey its been a while ...

The latest is ...

The car is fully prepped and is getting painted for the next 2 weeks ...

The C.A.S is being used to make up the ecu ... Full sequential Fire ... dual lambda function also

I have found a place in SA to modify the gearbox ecu and a 3000 rpm stall convertor ...

The turbo's are 2 x T3 50 trim ... rated around the 350 hp mark ... So theoretically 700 hp at flywheel isnt out of the question ... Although given the 10.2:1 comp, the engine's first dose of boost will be around the 0.6-0.7 bar mark ... 10psi max ... i estimate somewhere between 350 - 400 rwhp with the auto and a VERY conservative timing map ... (dont wanna jump in the deep end straight up)

I am using the standard inlet manifold to begin with ... that is until the motor is running and i buy the 2nd engine and use the throttle body off that to run 2 ...

There was a bit of a freeze on plans for a while but its all back on track now ...

Wish I had more to tell you's ... give it time ...

[PoorManQ45]

Wow, thanks for the update. It's good to see someone actually follow through with their plans with the VH45DE.

Good Luck. ANd if you get the chance, post some pictures please

[Ezekial]

Havent been able to get a hold of a camera yet ...

My girlfriend has one at work but she wont let me borrow it because she thinks the car looks sh*t

The car is in undercoat now!!

It has to be sanded again, few minor things fixed and then undercoated again and then next weekend is paint time!!

[skylndrftr]

I would defintiely say use the autronic over the motec. If for no other reason than the autronic is from australia and Motec is based in Cali... Personal expereience with both and i must say i prefered the autronic. maybe a little more complex but i thought it was more intuitive. Also has the cabaility to do launch control traction control and antilag...the Motec is significantly more expensive to

[PalmerWMD]

Some oen here aske dabout weakest part of engine.Answer:

Not rods but ringsFred..

[Ezekial]

I would defintiely say use the autronic over the motec. If for no other reason than the autronic is from australia and Motec is based in Cali... Personal expereience with both and i must say i prefered the autronic. maybe a little more complex but i thought it was more intuitive. Also has the cabaility to do launch control traction control and antilag...the Motec is significantly more expensive to

Motec and Autronic are both over-priced ...

OK so the car was painted last weekend ...

i have a few photo's but none with the car out of the shed in the light ...

The next big problem is that the engine hits the brake master cylinder

Does anyone know the dimensions of the VH41DE engine? ie. how much less is it in width compared to the VH45DE?

I know this fits in the S13 ... with JUST enough clearance from the master cylinder ... I might have to drop down in capacity

[Bart]

just move the master cylinder, remote master cylinder??