Running Lean

[Mustangs_Suck]

Ok - so my car is finally mostly all fixed - still needs new tie rods and tie rod ends, but whatever..nothing that needs immediate fixing.

The shop says the car has great power, and drives great, except I'm running a bit lean. He says at about 5000 rpm's the car stutters a bit and backfire's.

Now - i'm running SR injectors (370cc i believe), and a Apex'i SAFC. Stock ECU, Stock MAF. No boost controller.

Is it possible to solve this problem, with what I have, or will I need to get a boost controller/ECU/MAF (either/or) to solve my problem?

He said it's great for a daily driver right now, but i really won't be able to "get on it" until this problem is fixed.

Any suggestions?

Thank you

[Red-KAT]

Get a wadeband and check to see if its lean for sure. Stop before the popping!

My car would lean at 5k. With the Walbro pump I could make it to 5800. After the Aremotiv FPR (At 43psi) I could red line no issues. (I now run base pressure of 50 somthing psi)

Thats just my guess.

[fiznat]

studdering and backfiring sounds like its rich to me, not lean.... I donno though I guess it could be lean. Check the color of your plugs, smell your exhaust etc etc, see what you find out... A wideband would be helpful too

[Structure240sx]

yea definitly doesnt sound lean to me, either rich or loosing spark right around the peak power, most likely spark at that rpm. it would have to be running sub 10:1 afr's to felling bogging and backfiring. tell them to gap the plugs down

[nissanfanatic]

lean popping occurs around 17:1AF. One run on that and you would prolly be walking home. Gap the plugs. What coil are you running? What wires?

For future reference, adding more boost rarely solves problems. But it can def make some.

[fiznat]

At how many pounds of boost is this? Not sure what the BD system runs "stock."

Like Structure mentioned I would be thinking spark as well... Your plug gap should probably be in the .025-.028 range, and everything else needs to be in good condition. Depending on how much boost you want to push, you should think about upgrading the spark as well-- although its probably not entirely necessary for you right now.

How is this shop tuning your car without a wideband?

[Mustangs_Suck]

stock SR boost - it's a t25 turbo. I believe it's 7psi.

NGK plugs and wires.

They aren't tuning my car...they've just been fixing what's wrong with it and hooking some vaccuum lines back up.

They said they can look into the "running lean" problems, but i'd be charged by the hr..and they don't know how long it would take for them to figure out exactly what's causing it.

[Mustangs_Suck]

I just got off the phone and he said he doesn't see anything that gapping the plugs would solve...he said a new ECU would most likely solve my problems...so idk. I guess i'll be just taking it easy on her until I can start making a good solid income to start paying this thing and all it's repairs off..and then start looking into getting whatever it is I'll need to solve this problem taken care of. I know my time is limited though...I have about a month before this thing needs to be tested for emissions, and I don't want them gettin' on it if it's going to be dangerous for the car.

[fiznat]

so wait, the car isnt tuned yet??

what the hell... do some pulls with the SAFC and see if you can even things out. How can your mechanic complain about the car running crappy when it hasnt even been tuned yet?

[HolyShiznit]

The mechanic is an idiot. I would suggest going somewhere else. Pretty blatantly stupid things done by the shop:

1: Claiming that spark plug gap wouldn't solve anything.2: Not even tuning the car with a wideband.3: Blaming the ECU

Get a wideband on that thing and make sure the plug gaps are fine. Your mechanic doesn't sound very intelligent when it comes to turbo set-ups.

[Mustangs_Suck]

name of the shop is "Import Minded" they've been around a long time, and do any and everything to cars. The shop has about 40 cars inside it, some of them are old muscle cars that have been stripped to the frame for full restoration, others are civics getting "JDM" motors swapped into them.

I think they know what they are doing.

I have no boost controller, I have the stock ECU which wasn't meant for a turbo - I'm assuming they know they aren't going to be able to 100% tune the car without these things, so they've done the best as they can for now, until I decide to go further on getting all the supporting mods needed.

He said the car runs great - just when you hit 5k it sounds like it's not getting enough fuel....which he said a proper ECU and a boost controller would solve the problems, and/or be alot easier to tune properly if I had them.

So..I know where to get boost controllers and stuff - but where would a good ECU place be, and what ECU do i exactly need? I know I can send mine into places and get it redone or whatever..is that my only option?

I really don't have much time to have this car in this condition...and I guess I just need to start getting all the parts I need to do this.

[Mustangs_Suck]

I guess the only thing that shop really can't do is dyno or wideband tune the car ...he said the closest one he knows of is in Madison - which is a good 2 hr. drive for me....so idk. He also said there really isn't a whole lot to tune on the car..it's just a SAFC...and that's it when it comes to any type of fuel etc management.

so...any suggestions on what I need to be able to get this thing tuned?

[Structure240sx]

a boost controller can only raise the boost which would help it lean out without proper tunning

how are they setting up the safc? with out a wideband they have no idea.

like nissanfanatic said you wont be able to feel, tell, hear you are running lean until 17:1 afr's, he is exactly right on with that.

you mentioned the experience and current work the shop has, you didnt mention a turbo once in that part. you also said they dont have a dyno or wideband so they definitly dont know forced induction/tunning to well

instead of paying them, im sure obscene amounts of money, invest in a wideband and tune it yourself. it really is not very hard and there is plenty of help around here

[Mustangs_Suck]

a boost controller can only raise the boost which would help it lean out without proper tunning

how are they setting up the safc? with out a wideband they have no idea.

like nissanfanatic said you wont be able to feel, tell, hear you are running lean until 17:1 afr's, he is exactly right on with that.

you mentioned the experience and current work the shop has, you didnt mention a turbo once in that part. you also said they dont have a dyno or wideband so they definitly dont know forced induction/tunning to well

instead of paying them, im sure obscene amounts of money, invest in a wideband and tune it yourself. it really is not very hard and there is plenty of help around here

The guy I bought the car from already had the SAFC set up...so it's supposedly all set up right...but then again, every thing this moron touched has been broken, so of course I have no idea if it's right or not.

As for Wideband tuning - I'm not sure how it works..so i guess i just don't understand..if I have nothing after market on this car as far as ecu's and **** goes, what the hell does the wideband tuning, actually tune?

You are right about them not tuning, they are great at vacuum lines and idle blah blah blah, and they can install any damn thing you want..but when it comes to the d!ck' around and doing +1 -1 stuff - nope they just don't have the capabilities to do it.

So it looks like I need to invest in a boost controller, and then go get this ****er on a wideband...

When I get my **** straight, I'll probably upgrade to a Z32 MAF, *maybe* up my 370cc's to 550cc's and just the JWT ECU stage II re-tune, and have everything all perfect then...but for now I just need something to make this so when I get it emissions tested, they don't blow my engine when they start taking the RPM's up.

[Mustangs_Suck]

oh and also - any recommended websites to purchase a wideband, for me to look into?

[WDRacing]

OK, stop and listen for one second. I'm only going to list straight facts here. Thinsg that you need to understand and then check on...period. This shop your with, appears very uneducated, thats fact.

Boost increases cylinder pressure to make more power. More cylinder pressure means you need to 1, change your plugs and add a colder heat range and 2, reduce the stock gap down to say .030. The increased cylinder pressure will seriously effect your ignition on boost at high rpms. Thats fact.

The SAFC is controlling your ECU in a way, so whether you have an aftermarket ECU installed or not, the SAFC is tuning the injectors up or down depending on how it is set. If the SAFC is set without using a wideband controller, then you have absolutly no idea what the actual Air Fuel ratio is on or off boost.

At idle you want a 14.7 to 15.5 AFR, the car will run fine at 12.8 and up, but it'll be so rich you'll lose power and get very bad mileage, somthing you won't know without a wideband to measure the AFR.

If your running very lean on boost, enough to make the car pop and studder, then your border line about to pop a piston, if you haven't already. True Fact

If your running rich enough to studder and backfire, then your fouling your plugs and losing power by the gobs. Not to mention you'll ruin your O2 sensor and clog your cat.

Here's the first thing I would do if I owned your car right now. Change plugs and regap down to .030. Check wires and make sure then ohm out, autozone or checker can do this for you.

Look at the SAFC settings, see what the TH point is set to, with that small of a turbo your probably in boost really quick, so the TH points should be like 20 and 35. Thats where the SAFC will switch from the low th map to the high th map. The set the SAFC to -25% accross the board on the low th map, its a rich but safe bet assuming your car us running correctly at this point. Then I'd switch the high th map to 0 across the board. Maybe take out a little fuel at 3500 or so, like a -5% to -10% since the stock FPR is adding fuel pressure with boost. But it's hard to say without having the actual AFR's to look at.

What are the settings on your SAFC right now?

WD

[Mustangs_Suck]

OK, stop and listen for one second. I'm only going to list straight facts here. Thinsg that you need to understand and then check on...period. This shop your with, appears very uneducated, thats fact.

Boost increases cylinder pressure to make more power. More cylinder pressure means you need to 1, change your plugs and add a colder heat range and 2, reduce the stock gap down to say .030. The increased cylinder pressure will seriously effect your ignition on boost at high rpms. Thats fact.

The SAFC is controlling your ECU in a way, so whether you have an aftermarket ECU installed or not, the SAFC is tuning the injectors up or down depending on how it is set. If the SAFC is set without using a wideband controller, then you have absolutly no idea what the actual Air Fuel ratio is on or off boost.

At idle you want a 14.7 to 15.5 AFR, the car will run fine at 12.8 and up, but it'll be so rich you'll lose power and get very bad mileage, somthing you won't know without a wideband to measure the AFR.

If your running very lean on boost, enough to make the car pop and studder, then your border line about to pop a piston, if you haven't already. True Fact

If your running rich enough to studder and backfire, then your fouling your plugs and losing power by the gobs. Not to mention you'll ruin your O2 sensor and clog your cat.

Here's the first thing I would do if I owned your car right now. Change plugs and regap down to .030. Check wires and make sure then ohm out, autozone or checker can do this for you.

Look at the SAFC settings, see what the TH point is set to, with that small of a turbo your probably in boost really quick, so the TH points should be like 20 and 35. Thats where the SAFC will switch from the low th map to the high th map. The set the SAFC to -25% accross the board on the low th map, its a rich but safe bet assuming your car us running correctly at this point. Then I'd switch the high th map to 0 across the board. Maybe take out a little fuel at 3500 or so, like a -5% to -10% since the stock FPR is adding fuel pressure with boost. But it's hard to say without having the actual AFR's to look at.

What are the settings on your SAFC right now?

WD

thanks for the info - i appreciate it

I will do everything you mentioned in order to get this thing safe - even if it means running rich...i'd rather gunk up my spark plugs than blow a piston.

As for the SAFC settings right now - you'll have to wait until I get the car back..It's a good 45 min. drive from the shop to my house..so I'll be taking it easy and making sure to not get up to 5k rpm's just incase if I am running lean. I'll post up the numbers I get on the SAFC as soon as I get the car..it should hopefully be today...I think they are just putting my cat on, and attempting to raise my suspension...so i should get the call soon, I hope.

[WDRacing]

Keep us posted man...

[Mustangs_Suck]

Keep us posted man...

will do.. I just hope the ride home is safe

[Mustangs_Suck]

Ok quick little update. The guy at my shop said he d!ck with the SAFC a little bit, and got it to run much better, but says it still breaks up a bit.

I guess the SAFC was set to -27 all the way around...idk what he set it to, I'll put up the numbers when I get em.

[Mustangs_Suck]

Ok..got home with the car. some dumb little issues - speedometer wigs out at times, my brake lights don't light up when i step on the brake...oh well...easy fixes.

Still have a bunch of blue smoke coming out of the exhaust. The car hasn't been run in awhile, it JUST got a fresh new oil change from the shop. It still most likely has some gunk in it from sitting for awhile at the douchebag i bought this thing from's house, and the shop poured some stuff in it that seals up little things that may be causing oil leaks - so I'm thinking some of it might because of that, but i'm sure the rest of it is because it's un-tuned.

When I let off the gas - there is usually one loud pop at about 2k rpm's.

The engine and turbo sound/feel great - but yes it stops pulling at about 4500rpm's (i took it up to about there just to feel it kinda die out once)...which again - probably has something to do with the tuning.

The car idles nicely, and there are no ticks or sputtering at all.

The suspension is shot to hell it starts bouncing so bad i feel like the front wheels are gonna get off the ground sometimes, and it also needs an alignment terribly. So there's more money i get to shell out soon - but i'll be worrying about the tuning and whatnot first of course.

Tomorrow I will be buying new NGK plugs and having them gapped at .030 like WD said.

As for the settings on my SAFC - they are as follows:Hi:1000 +12000 +33000 +54000 +95000 +116000 +127000 +128000 +16

Lo:1000-8000 all are 0

TH Point:Lo: 10%Hi: 35%

Dec. Air:Thr. 1.0%Ne1 1.3%Ne2 1.0%

Sens.Check: In-1: .230VIn-2: .010VThrt.: .440V

All the mods dealing with my engine,air,fuel:

-xspower t25 bottom mount manifold-sr20det t25 turbo -cheapturbo lines oil line kit-sr 370cc injectors -safc-sr20det fuel pump-fmic with custom piping-blitz bov-jwt pop charger-ngk plugs-ngk plug wires-3inch divorced turbo elbow, downpipe, testpipe -gt spec catback

Let me know what's up and what settings I should try out on the SAFC.

I appreciate all your help

[fiznat]

If you were running rich before, like WD said you could have easially fouled your plugs in just a little bit of idling. Replace the plugs, regap them, check your other ignition stuff and you should be a lot better off.

Also, get a real tune. Having your shop "d!ck around with the SAFC a little bit" isnt good enough haha as you can probably imagine.. Get it tuned right, with a wideband, and I bet the difference will be night and day.

Also consider doing some reading on your own and stop taking your car to a shop. I've found that very few places know the specifics on this kinda work enough to really do well with it... "vaccum lines" are one of the easiest things to set up on these cars, you really are wasting money on this shop when all it took was a single post here and we pretty much narrowed it down to what your mechanic (after charging you) also said was the problem.

Good luck with everything man, keep us updated on it!

[WDRacing]

Your settings are horrible at best...lol.

[Structure240sx]

you are running extremely rich on the high map and low.

for the low map it should be around -27% allt he way through and the high should be around -10% but prolly lower.

[Mustangs_Suck]

lol alright, I'll redo my SAFC settings. I'm gonna put -27 for all RPM's in the Lo.

And 0 for all Hi RPM's except -5% at 3500 as WD said. I'll also bump my Lo TH point up to 20% instead of the 10% like it's sitting at now.

Good to know I'm running rich - as I said - messed up spark plugs and a clogged cat is MUCH better than popping a piston .

Hopefully after redoing these settings and my spark plugs and letting it run for a bit, most of my problems will be gone, and it'll allow me to get it to a place that does wideband tuning - or I'll do one myself.

Anyone have a link for me to a good enough wideband???

Thank you everyone!

Oh and yes Fiznat - The shop i took it to does great with installations, and offers warranties on aftermarket parts...but when it comes to tuning - you are correct, they don't know what's goin' on hehe. thanks for your advice, I'll be reading more now

[Mustangs_Suck]

Alright, sweet. I re-set the SAFC to the setting you've recommended and no more blue smoke! ta'da! the car smells like ****, but I had an older used cat. put on yesterday - so who knows what has to be burnt up in there. The car will still pop loudly every now and then at about 2k rpm's like yesterday, and if i dont tap the gas after that pop, it'll die...so I'm assuming this is where my gunked up plugs come into play. I'll be getting new ones gapped at .030 today and installing them myself, and hopefully that'll take care of the backfire or whatever problem.

This car pulls, jesus..really not pushing it at all, as I don't want to until all things are tuned correctly, but just the little I'm givin' it - it really goes very excited to get this car 100% done.

Thank you all so much for your help

Now - two more little things - as I said - my speedo wigs out at times, and my brake lights don't work when I hit the brake (they light up when my lights are on, but won't get brighter when i brake)...so...looks like I might have to do some digging around to find these wires, I have the FSM - and I guess I can try to figure that out heh, unless someone knows where to direct me - if ya do - lemme know

Thanks again,M.S.

[Structure240sx]

thats good news.

i have the plx m-300 i bought at streetrays.com. i have always like it b ut at the point im at i would love some datalogging capabilities (just gets very hard to watch the wideband on the street wtih 350-400rwhp). for your needs it would do great. only has a power and ground wires you have to tap then plug the o2 sensor in and you are set. you might need an extra o2 sensor bung installed in your downpipe

[Mustangs_Suck]

it sure is good news

I'm currently looking for a place that does Wideband tuning here in Milwaukee, but idk if i'm going to find any...this place is right in the middle of Madison, and Chicago - where all the good **** is. If I can't find one, I'll consider picking one up, as I'm sure I'll be using it in the future. thanks for the recommendation.

[MarkEmark]

I had almost the exact same problem...gapped my iridiums down to about .30 or .28 (I forget), problem solved.

[wild_maxx]

the reasong i went withe the lm-1 wideband was cause it was capable of datalogging. it really helps when your trying to get a good reading of a/f. alothough you are screwed if you dont have the rpm converter ( 100 bux more) cause you kinda have to just watch your rpm's and the a/f at the same time to see how your running at that rpm.