Q45 TURBO PROJECT

[perana]

thanks for the pictures mate his motor sticks out as much as mine.as for the manifolds if i had more time i would supply the world but i have recently started my own bussines so all projects are on hold.this is the main reason why i sold all my stuff.

[defrag010]

man, the only things I can say are WOW and OH MY GOD.. that is a super clean install. Not only to I totally love Q45's, but a clean install one like yours is just the icing on the cake. VERY well done!!

Are you going to do anything with your transmission or torque converter?

[tight240]

Ok koo, if you dont mind me asking how much did that welder run you? And whats the specs on it? O yeah one more question, do you have any pics of the front of the Q wit the intercooler showin .

[sijoko]

man, the only things I can say are WOW and OH MY GOD.. that is a super clean install. Not only to I totally love Q45's, but a clean install one like yours is just the icing on the cake. VERY well done!!

Are you going to do anything with your transmission or torque converter?

Thanks for the kind words defrag. I hope my project will motivate others into turboing their Q45s. These cars are too nice to just end up in a junkyard.

The transmission in the car is a Level Ten rebuild with a Pro Torque modified converter. Both have over 100k miles and are getting tired. I'll have to R&R them soon but I don't want to spend the outrageous loot that Level Ten is asking for their rebuilds. Once was enough.

I'm thinking of going with Phoenix Transmissions. http://www.phoenixhardparts.co...D=349

They also offer a racing valve body option. http://www.phoenixhardparts.co...D=507

[sijoko]

Ok koo, if you dont mind me asking how much did that welder run you? And whats the specs on it? O yeah one more question, do you have any pics of the front of the Q wit the intercooler showin .

I picked up the welder from Ebay for around $240 shipped. The brand is called "ArcWeld" which is part of Lincoln Electric. It runs on 115v and can be converted for gas shielding. If you shop around, you'll find something. For welding exhaust pipes you don't need a big machine.

I'm away from the car at this moment and won't have a chance to take any pics for at least two weeks, but I'll tell you this, the intercooler is pretty well hidden. You really have to pay attention to notice it.

[defrag010]

These cars are too nice to just end up in a junkyard.

I totally agree.. my donor car was a wrecked hunk of junk, but even so, when driving it home I was loving it. Some day, I will find me another jade green/tan interior 91Q in mint shape to keep. I ended up cutting mine up, and I know pretty much every nut and bolt on a 1st gen q45 now for when I find my perfect Q.

thanks for the link to the phoenix valve body, I think I might get that for mine

[sijoko]

Master and Commander........ Aye, matey! LOL.

Looks like you had fun tearing up that Q. At least, you got a chance to see the work they put into the design and build.

[Unnatural1]

Thanks for the kind words defrag. I hope my project will motivate others into turboing their Q45s. These cars are too nice to just end up in a junkyard.

The transmission in the car is a Level Ten rebuild with a Pro Torque modified converter. Both have over 100k miles and are getting tired. I'll have to R&R them soon but I don't want to spend the outrageous loot that Level Ten is asking for their rebuilds. Once was enough.

I'm thinking of going with Phoenix Transmissions. http://www.phoenixhardparts.co...D=349

They also offer a racing valve body option. http://www.phoenixhardparts.co...D=507

You've been keeping me motivated. At one point, I had thought about selling my Q and getting something like a 240SX or 300ZX, but this car is so nice. I still really want one of the other 2 cars listed above but maybe in addition to my Q45. I just need some time to plan and saving some $$$.

I friend of mine had a Phoenix Transmission built TH200-4R in his 10-second Grand National. It lasted much longer than the other transmissions he ran in that car. He would beat on that car so if anything would last more than a few months it was a miracle.

You also might look into IPT Transmissions. They appear to have lots of Nissan/Jatco street/race transmission experience.

[darinz]

I had mine on the dyno last week, for a short time. Discovered a couple of problems, fixed them and them put it back on yesterday.The oil drain was to restrictive so was causing lots of smoke, so changed that (now 5/8). Had a problem with the Link computer so sent that back to Christhurch to be fixed. As thecouldn't fix it, it has been removed and a Autronic SM4 has been ordered, but that is another story.The turbo is a To4z with .96 (I think). What we could learn from it was very limited as we couldn't control the boost. No electronic control so waste gate was opening at 6psi and slowly increasing to 10psi by 5000rpm so that was as far as we could take it. We were unable to do anything with timing and basically it was just running too much fuel and I had my 35.5" offroad competition tyres on and we still got about 220kw (300hp) at 5000rpm at rear wheels. The big problem is what size waste gate to fit?????? It had a 45mm but it just isn't doing the job. I'm thinking 60mm or maybe 2x 45mm but th experts reconded the 45mm would do it, but it didn't. The plan is 8 to 10psi and somewhere between 500 and 600 hp (flywheel). Anyone got some ideas?

[sijoko]

The big problem is what size waste gate to fit?????? It had a 45mm but it just isn't doing the job. I'm thinking 60mm or maybe 2x 45mm but th experts reconded the 45mm would do it, but it didn't. The plan is 8 to 10psi and somewhere between 500 and 600 hp (flywheel). Anyone got some ideas?

I'm running a 38mm Tial with a 6 psi spring and the boost will not climb above 5 psi currently. If you look at this picture, you can see that the wastegate mount is in a good location for max flow. It is the small pipe at the 90 degree turn.

If you can't place the wastegate in an optimal location, then you need to use the largest one you can or even use two units.

[Destroying_Q]

Nice work, sijoko. I just "inherited" my father's 93' Q45 and I'm really considering making mine a Q45T when I get out of basic. Of course, before I do that, I have a couple of questions for the guy who has actually done it.First off, do you think the Q's factory ECM and MAS could handle a turbo setup? I'll consider using aftermarket/tuned ECM's if I must, but I'm hoping it won't be neccesary with a turbo built for medium-high boost. That brings me to my second question. My goal would be an everyday driver with power mostly in the mid-range, with a bias toward higher RPM performance for the highway. I was considering using a smaller turbo than the T70, and I was wondering how you came to pick the one you did. Next, any idea how I could pick the right standard transmission to mate to this thing? Lastly, do you know of a good guide that explains turbocharging in general? I've got a 300-page book on the subject, but a lot of the information and practice are out-dated. Plus, an engineer wrote it, and its reading difficulty is proportional. I have a rudimentary knowledge of how a turbo systems works, but I really want more insight into the physics of the thing. Thanks for the help and inspiration, and be ready to see another Q45T out there!
Modified by Destroying_Q at 9:37 PM 8/24/2007

[sijoko]

Nice work, sijoko. I just "inherited" my father's 93' Q45 and I'm really considering making mine a Q45T when I get out of basic. Of course, before I do that, I have a couple of questions for the guy who has actually done it.First off, do you think the Q's factory ECM and MAS could handle a turbo setup? I'll consider using aftermarket/tuned ECM's if I must, but I'm hoping it won't be neccesary with a turbo built for medium-high boost. That brings me to my second question. My goal would be an everyday driver with power mostly in the mid-range, with a bias toward higher RPM performance for the highway. I was considering using a smaller turbo than the T70, and I was wondering how you came to pick the one you did.Next, any idea how I could pick the right standard transmission to mate to this thing? Lastly, do you know of a good guide that explains turbocharging in general? I've got a 300-page book on the subject, but a lot of the information and practice are out-dated. Plus, an engineer wrote it, and its reading difficulty is proportional. I have a rudimentary knowledge of how a turbo systems works, but I really want more insight into the physics of the thing. Thanks for the help and inspiration, and be ready to see another Q45T out there!

You've got a lot of questions. LOL! It isn't that hard to boost the Q45 if you know what you're doing. The first thing is to get a good understanding about turbocharging systems. The book that you mention sounds like "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. It is one of the best, even if it is sometimes a hard read. Also, there is good info to be found on Garrett's website.

The extra fuel needed can be handled by a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator like the BEGI FMU. This is the cheapest and simplest method of compensating for boost. If you design the system with a blow-through MAF, the ECU will compensate somewhat for the extra air but you will run out of injector at higher boost pressures unless you increase the fuel pressure.

As far as selecting the turbo size, I would not go below a T-66 on the VH45DE. I chose my turbo for growth potential. I've got plenty of reserve available for higher boost levels.

When you choose a turbo for an engine, you have to know some basic formulas. You've also got to learn how to read a compressor map. This info is found in Corky Bell's book or on Garrett's site. Learn the basics of turbo selection and things will start making more sense. Keep us posted on your turbo project.

[Destroying_Q]

Thanks for the advice! I hadn't thought about ensuring that my compressor won't be maxed out when I drive. Now that I've got a reference size, I can start picking apart Ford, Chevy, and Dodge diesels at the junkyard. I certainly didn't want to use a compressor too small for my application. I want that thing to last a little longer than a month.

I now understand that the FMU is a fuel pressure regulator, and that will narrow my search. I had assumed you were referring to electronic fuel management. Also, is there a place where I can find the duty cycles of the injectors and the fuel pump? I was considering replacing them with something higher duty, but I won't if the Q's can handle it without excessive stress.

Oh, and I will also definitley check out Garrett's site and start figuring out comprssor maps. Do they make any recommendations on intercooler selection? I know that they follow the too big/too small rule that applies to pretty much everything.

And you guys will be kept up-to-date on the project when it begins, although that may be in a while. Navy basic starts Feb. 19th for me, and then I'll get the first part of my bonus that will fund this project.

P.S.- The book I found is called simply "Turbochargers" by Hugh MacInnes. It was copyrighted in 1984 by HPBooks. The Library of Congress number is 76-6002 for those of you who want to check it out. Watch out, though, this guy says turbochargers will probably lose out in the drag racing scene because they suppress noise.

[darinz]

When I was looking at turbo's we wanted at least 60lbs but didn't want any restriction at high rpm and also wanted it to boost at low rpm. We considered T66, Gt 40's etc. I ended up with a T04z with 1.15. With that we were seeing very good low end boost ie around 2500rpm and were losing control of the boost at 5000 so top end doesn't appear to be a problem! Going with a double ball bearing turbo enabled a larger turbo to be used with the same bottom end or a faster spool with the same top end. Double BB turbo's really make a difference, but do cost a bit more than 'T' series journal bearing turbo's.

[qsiguy]

I did a lot of research on picking the correct turbo when I was designing my system and read through all the Garrett info. I went with the Master Power T70 with a .68a/r turbine for my rear mount setup. Based on that information I made a Excel program to help picking the correct turbo. The link below has my blank spreadsheet you can use as well as the one with the data from my '94 Q45 already input.

There are lots of numbers but I tried to put explanations on each field to explain. The formulas from the Garrett information are already plugged in to simplify trying different scenarios. There is also a basic graph laid out like a compressor map so you can figure out where to plot the data on a particular map. Let me know if you have questions. I think it's pretty accurate but there are no guarantees of course! I compared the results to several different sources and they are pretty consistent.

http://www.c4caraudio.com/tech/forced_induction/

Here are a couple screenshots of the program

[elwesso]

shane I just tried it out, pretty cool..

I assume if you wanted to calculate something good for twins you would just divide everything by 2... meaning consider the motor a 137CI motor instead of 274ci.

[qsiguy]

I think so, haven't delved into twins yet but that seem logical.

Oh, another note on the program, there are 3 sheets used. When you enter the data into sheet one you can switch to sheets 2 and 3 to see high HP numbers that are automatically entered.

[darinz]

Nice work! There's a lot of info out there to digest to get it right. I looked at Masterpower as well. I figured if they are good enough to make turbo's for Garrett then they would be good enough for me. The reason I didn't was I wanted the increase that ball bearing would give. ie bigger turbo generating less heat for same lbs of air, with the same spool time. Obviously the calculations don't take into account the increased efficiency of a ball bearing turbo. I took the advice of the Garrett agent over what I could figure out and ended up with a bigger turbo than what I worked out. The results appear to be speaking for themselves, but that won't be fully proved untill I get it back on the dyno.

[qsiguy]

Yes, there is no consideration for ball bearing models. The numbers only show total air volume requirements, hp output, pressure ratios, etc. It won't tell you how quickly it'll spool up or where you'll have full boost. You have to look at the maps to pick the turbo that matches your needs efficiently. Total power would be about the same I think whether ball bearing or journal bearing but you'll get there quicker with ball bearings obviously. I would expect a longer lifespan with a ball bearing model as well. I was on a tight budget which was a primary factor in my decision.

When I initially started my forced induction plans I was quite uneducated about the various turbos and specifically the cheapo Chinese models. I saw the cheap $200 turbos on E-Bay and thought I could use them and get my turbo done for about $1000. Well, as I taught myself about turbos and did my research I ruled out those turbos and have since more than doubled my initial "budget". No doubt I'll be better off tho, as I can only imagine the possible problems I may have encountered. Now I consider myself quite knowledgeable in the ways of boost!

Now if I can just get my project done and on the road! Hoping to get quite a bit done on this long weekend coming up.

[sijoko]

I really like QSIGUY's turbo calc. It takes almost all the factors into consideration. A lot of people don't realize how much psi is lost through the associated plumbing of a turbo system.

About the Chinese turbos that you see on Ebay, it is a crap shoot. Some people have had great results, others have had catastrophic failures.

The biggest problems is that you have no idea which Chinese company made the turbo. Some are obviously better than others, but how do you know who is the manufacturer since they all are generic with no labels.

Garrett, Holset, Borg-Warner, and Mitsubishi turbos FTW!

BTW, ball-bearing turbos are not worth the extra loot, IMHO.

[darinz]

Masterpower turbo's are made in Brazil and they also make turbo's for Garrett so some of the turbo's (journal bearing only) are made by Masterpower. If I was going journal I would have used a Masterpower as a lot cheaper but still with good history and after sales.

[sijoko]

Masterpower turbo's are made in Brazil and they also make turbo's for Garrett so some of the turbo's (journal bearing only) are made by Masterpower. If I was going journal I would have used a Masterpower as a lot cheaper but still with good history and after sales.

Yes, I would include Masterpower in the group. The country of origin is not the concern for me but what kind of engineering and design went into the product. A lot of the major turbo companies have overseas manufacturing facilities such as Holset (India) and BorgWarner (China). Probably, Garrett also does most of their stuff overseas.

[sijoko]

It's been a while since I updated this project. I was away taking some classes for a few months so I couldn't do anything with the car.

Now I'm back on the project. The car was mostly done. I still had to do the tuning. So I hooked up the NGK Powerdex AFX and started checking my a/f ratios.





For fuel enrichment, I am using a BEGI FMU only with the stock Q45 ECU. The car is setup to run as a blow-thru MAF. After some tweaking with FMU, I got the car to run full throttle with a bit less than 11.5:1. The wastegate is set for 6 psi currently. I ordered another spring so that I can turn up the boost to 8 psi.

The car runs good with boost coming on at 3.5k rpm in first gear. After that it pulls hard to redline. In the higher gears, boost starts at 3k rpm. Power wise, I would say that it is generating around 420 hp at the crank. All I can say for sure is that the car is a lot faster than before.

[craigztoyz]

Dyno!!! Dyno!!!

I would love to see the Dyno sheet when you get to take it.Really nice work, and thanx for keeping up the info on your build.

how are you liking the stock ECU with the Adjusting regulator? How consistent is the a/f ratio? does the boost hit like a freight train, or is it managable?

Nice work, I will sit back and watch n wait to see those dyno #'s n its curve.

[darkengineer]

After all your custom work and tight tolerances, would you go about boosting the same way if you had to do it over again? Have all the difficulties been worth it or would you consider Qsiguy's rear-mount setup?

I know the Z32 engine bay is already tight, so I'm looking through all the options in regards to power (including usability and reliability), price, quantity of custom work, and ease of maintenance.

[sijoko]

After all your custom work and tight tolerances, would you go about boosting the same way if you had to do it over again? Have all the difficulties been worth it or would you consider Qsiguy's rear-mount setup?

I know the Z32 engine bay is already tight, so I'm looking through all the options in regards to power (including usability and reliability), price, quantity of custom work, and ease of maintenance.

Hmm.....that's a good question. In retrospect, I'm glad I put the turbo in the front for the simple fact it makes the oil drainage so much easier. Plus, I like to see the turbo when I pop the hood.

That being said, I very much want to do a rear mount on my 95 Q. It is the easiest way to boost the Q. I think I can build it in 1/4 the time that it took for my front mount. Plus, it would be much cheaper.

Spool-up shouldn't be a problem as long as you keep the tubing size down and wrap everything like I did. If you look at the total length of my tubing before the turbo, it is almost as long as a rear-mount.

So, in the end, I would not hesitate to do a rear mount if you don't have the space. They work. The biggest problem is that some people think they are not real turbo systems. LOL. Who cares what people think anyway? They ain't paying the bills.

[sijoko]

Here's a vid of the car in action. It was drizzling so I had to lift after the 1-2 shift so it could be faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW8DGEQDqoY

[sijoko]

Dyno!!! Dyno!!!

I would love to see the Dyno sheet when you get to take it.Really nice work, and thanx for keeping up the info on your build.

how are you liking the stock ECU with the Adjusting regulator? How consistent is the a/f ratio? does the boost hit like a freight train, or is it managable?

Nice work, I will sit back and watch n wait to see those dyno #'s n its curve.

Hopefully, I'll have the chance to dyno the car one day. Not really in a big hurry.

The stock ECU with the BEGI FMU is not bad for a low boost setup. Once you start getting over 10 psi, then I would look at other methods. The a/f ratio stays pretty consistent under full throttle. It leans out for a second after the car shifts but then goes back to approx. 11.5:1.

The boost is coming on the scene at around 3.5k in first gear. After that it shows up at 3k in the other gears. It is a gradual build-up. Once the car is on boost, it feels like a plane taking off. There is no let up in the surge. But it is very driveable at part throttle.

[craigztoyz]

Thank you for the info, I am considering going rear mount turbo after I get this swap up and running, if the power is not satisfactory. I have been wondering how drivable it would be, a VH with 8lbs or so.

[sijoko]

Here's another vid with a 50-100 pull at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24xi5YPR5Ts