Q45 Brake Upgrade?

[MiniMan]

I'm not planning any track events, just trying to stay focused with this thing being a daily driver, not a race car.....this time.....no..I really mean it...this time it's just a driver.

Hahahaha.

What calipers is it you're talking about if you don't mind my asking, and what size rotors do they fit?

Larger vented front brakes with the J's rears would make for a good setup...

I wouldn't mind more info on the mustang conversion mentioned previously on NICO. Anyone have any more details?

Corey

[elwesso]

Here we go again. I guess it pays to wait until the ABSOLUTE best package has been made!

HEre we come... THE G50 vultures are now scouring for J30 brakes!!!!!

[maxnix]

Big wheels? Hmmm, now my brakes look little.

Big brakes? Need larger wheels to accommodate them.

I personally don't think I need to upgrade the rear too. Brembo makes too many kits that are front only for there not to be a reason for it. I'm not planning any track events, just trying to stay focused with this thing being a daily driver, not a race car.....this time.....no..I really mean it...this time it's just a driver.

No two ways about the fact that tires are, well, where the rubber meets the road. I just don't like the fading I get on my car on the highway, and that's with the 15" BBS's. Lord only knows what trouble I'll be in with the 18" OZ's.

HD, I think like you do, when except when it comes to kits and brake balance as expostulated here is why.

Ther are rear rotors, but they are not kitted together as most don't want to pay what it really takes. Look at Porsches, etc. No skimping there on rear brakes.

Now to get the $10K together.

Larger vented front brakes with the J's rears would make for a good setup...

Corey

The J rears are not larger, but are vented and probably heavier. Caliper and rotor should be a bolt up. I tried to get rear Stillen Brembos for the J from Joe, but they were not available.

[Jeff Williams]

ANY time you modify the original brakes, like add bigger front rotors, or change the calipers, you should have the brakes re-balanced. Unless you buy a pre-proven system, from a reputable company. You can luck into a balanced system, or just live with a un-balanced system, also.

A bias control is the best way for this.

The ABS will come into effect, when it senses lock-up, but you still want the car to be balanced, before lock-up, for best stopping results.

The bias control will help you adjust the correct front to rear ratio. It usually takes a full set of pads, to get the bias where you want, and each driver preferrs a different bias. The adjustments should be made on a track, or abandoned air strip, not on a public street.

[boomstriker]

Agreed- You can't just mix and match brakes from something else just to get bigger rotors, bigger calippers, bigger pads. It has to be a matched system - master cyl., fronts calipers and rears. When you change to someone elses front caliper, if the piston surface area isn't the same as OEM, you've changed the bias. Same goes with the rears.If you just want to fill the empty space that your 18's left, or you just have to have the cross-drilled & slotted look, spend the money and get a good matched kit.

The Q had a good system to begin with. If you use good pads, it will perform well enough for any street driving.

I have to wonder if the guys that complain of fade even know what kind of pads they have on there. If you go to Midas for brake work or you did it yourself with some Autozone generics with a lifetime warranty, I would expect them to fade after high speed stops. Even the best parts store pads aren't as good as the stock units and the chain stores use the cheapest junk they can get 'cause at $69.95 per axle, they make more money. Driving autobauhn speeds with cheap pads is just asking for trouble.

I've been using Axiss Metal Master pads for years on my cars. I just got a set of the new ceramic/metalics for the front of the Q -they don't offer rears yet- and I put them on all four corners of the Z. They are very resistant to fade, they have a better feel with less effort and don't create the dust the others do.Kirk

[AZ94Q]

They MAY be sufficient for street driving, and maybe not

In the AZ 110+ summers, they will fade fast, with anything but granny driving...

Sorry the OEM brakes arn't that great... The 300zx weighs 500+ pounds less then the Q.. The Q has less potent brakes...

What does that tell you? The skyline has better brakes then the Z, which makes it a nice upgrade for the Q.

1 piston calipers in the rear are weak...

Anyway the more potent brakes you have the deeper you can go into the corners, and more trailbraking can be used..

If the rears had more then 1 piston, and had some sort of venting, it would improve the whole braking system substanially.

Stock Q brakes just arn't adaquate under repeated hard stops, or just hard driving in general. If they were SO GOOD, they would have been used on the 300zx.. Most 300zx owners upgrade there brakes to the skyline kit or something more exotic like brembos.. The 300zx brakes arn't even that sufficient for a 500+ pound lighter car... the Q brakes which are less potent then the 300zxs are certainly not capable enough for a two ton + car, let alone a car like the Z..

Nissan equiped the 300zx anniversary edition with the skyline kit for a reason.

[Falkdesigns]

This is just my 02 cents on this. On a *mostly* street driven car, replacing the stock rotors with some Brembo OE replacements, some very nice pads and quality fluid like Motul, is gonna make a HUGE difference over stock. On my 2000 Civic Si I put Brembo slotted rotors with AEM/Nissin pads and a complete flush with MOTUL RBF 600 (600 degree boiling temp) and when I'd go on the infamous Southern Cal canyon drives (going from sea level to nearly 8000' and back down) I had virtually NO brake fade, whereas with the stock system - forget about it.

You'll be amazed at the difference in braking power by just pads and fluid, throw in some high quality rotors and you really don't need much more, unless you plan on doing lots of track time (which I can't really see happening in a Q).

Keep in mind, I may be new to Nissan/Infiniti, but I'm no newbie when it comes to cars, I've been modifying my own cars for about 17 years, I've worked as a mechanic, and I work for a racing company now.

[Q45tech]

"1 piston calipers in the rear are weak" tell them that on New BMW 745:Brakes, front Single-piston swing-caliper disc brakes (inner-vented) with 13.7" Rotors Brakes, rear Single-piston swing-caliper disc brakes (inner-vented) with 13.6" Rotors

[squeefoo]

If you put on 300zx aluminum calipers on the front, add in a set (10) of longer wheel studs (+13mm) to go with the spacers you'll need (also 13mm). Get them from NISMO - I couldn't find them anywhere else; and they don't make your pedal feel weird.I have the part# somewhere.

[HeavyDuty]

The brakes on my 95 R33 Skyline GTR front clip were Brembos. Are these the ones you guys are talking about?

The J30 rear upgrade sounds so similar to the B13 Sentra > NX2000 front brake upgrade. Not much larger in diameter, but much thicker (heavier & in the J30 case, vented). And, the swept area is larger, IIRC. Didn't Tech post that the pads were larger also?

Boomstriker, I like the Axxiss pads too. I chose stock pads when I bought my Q, they work OK. I also like the Performance Friction pads from Autozone, believe it or not. Light dust, no squeak, great street pads.

Brian, I understand your point, and agree a perfect setup would be what you referenced. What do you think about about the J30 upgrade for the rear to complement the front Brembos?

MiniMan, my calipers are from a >99? Naviagtor front only kit from Brembo. Supposedly, Stillen approached Brembo years ago to make 'street' kits for a variety of applications. They (Brembo) also supposedly didn't think there was a market for it. Now they do, if there's any truth to that story. The rotor dimension would be the same as the 90-96 Z32 front upgrade. 332 x 32mm (13.07" x 1.25"). Only the Skyline gets an option for a rear setup, not even the 300ZX gets an offering, nor the Sentra, 240SX, Maxima, 350Z.

From an extensive conversation with Schtealin', Brembo & from 911/Q45's post here in a previous thread, there's some work ahead of me to dispell the comment from Brembo that the 300ZX & Q45 rotor, and therefore caliper bracket would *not* directly fit on a Q45. I was told 911/Q45 had already been through this & therefore more inclined to ignore Brembo's comment. Hell, I wound up doing R&D for Brembo on one of (if not THE) first kit made for a 99 Civic Si. We spent a week futzing around with different brackets & rotor hats before we got the right combination from them. Don't get me wrong, we were happy to do it, but it was an expensive proposition having a lift tied up for a week with overnight shipping going back & forth. Point is, this was a freakin Civic Si kit, needless to mention something less popular that there is infinitely less experience with. ACK! I'm afraid of having very expensive paperweights sitting around.

Brembo GT kits (one piece rotor or two piece rotor) all use the same caliper. The older kits used F40's, the newer kits are from an F50 (Ferrari). Then they fabricate brackets & the appropriately offset center hat to locate the rotor as far inboard as possible to fit the largest range of wheels. There's little difference between the F40 & F50, according to Brembo & hard to tell them apart. I don't care which I have.

Sorry for such a long post.

[AZ94Q]

The skyline Kit comes off of a R32 GTR.

It is standard on the 300zx anniversary edition, and sold as a bolt on upgrade from nissan motorsports..

http://courtesyparts.com/Merch...brake

http://courtesyparts.com/Merch...brake

They are an UPGRADE ffrom z32 brakes.

9/11q45 has the skyline kit. Search the archives.

[AZ94Q]

from 911/q45

I bought the Skyline kit from Stillen. It included larger and thicker rotors front and rear. The rears are also internally ventilated like the fronts, not solid like factory. All are cross drilled. The calipers are similar to the 300ZX TT, but slightly larger to accomodate the larger than 300ZX rotors. 4 piston front and 2 piston rear fixed, as opposed to 1 piston rear and 2 piston front sliding factory. Installation was pretty much bolt on, the splash shields interferred and had to be chiseled off, tedious but not neurosurgery. I cut and spliced the sensor wires so the light would stay off. The Stillen pads include a noisemaker that lets you know when they're getting skinny. The pads are right on the limit of hardness for a street pad, I had to get the 300ZX shim kit and coat everything with gooey brake quiet to get rid of the squeal. Not too much dust. You can use any 300ZX TT pads, softer would squeal less and make more dust. I added the stainless brake lines at the same time, can't swear to their effectiveness, but they were easy to add at that point and relatively cheap. The kit didn't include the pins for the rear calipers, the shims for the pads or the clips that hold the pins in place in the calipers. I believe the kit was about $2100, subject to negotiation depending on how much stuff you are getting at once. I notice a firmer pedal, a more authoritative braking action and better pad wear. There may be some ride degradation due to increased unsprung weight, but I made so many suspension and wheel/tire changes at once that I can't say for sure what to blame. System works great with the ABS and clears 17" wheels with ease. My 16" spare clears the rears but not the fronts, so if I ever get a flat on the front, I'll have to swap back to front and put the spare on the rear.

The skyline kit is most proven front/rear upgrade for the Q, period. Everything else is speculation, or doesn't address the rear.

There are several members that report very nice decreased stopping distances. It was also used on a Q that saw track time in endurance racing.

Until someone purchases and can test out the wilwood kit, the skyline kit is the best compromise. A 6 piston front brembo kit just isn't happening, without addressing the rears.

Dgoodno has a custom 6 piston AP racing kit for the fronts, ask him about his track performance with the garabge OEM rear setup... I'll save you the time, it's lousy.

[maxnix]

The J30 rear upgrade sounds so similar to the B13 Sentra > NX2000 front brake upgrade. Not much larger in diameter, but much thicker (heavier & in the J30 case, vented). And, the swept area is larger, IIRC. Didn't Tech post that the pads were larger also?

Brian, I understand your point, and agree a perfect setup would be what you referenced. What do you think about about the J30 upgrade for the rear to complement the front Brembos?

I believe (but do not know for a fact) that the swept area and pad size for the J30 vented rear rotors are identical to the stock G50 solid disc rears.

As Dennis has stated before, brake dust is not a bad thing for the street pad, cosmetics be damned. If you are not getting much dust, you are probably not getting much cold braking force, which all daily driving involves.

[Q45tech]

If the rotor absorbs [by weight] and reradiates heat to the air the pads get cooler thus their hot friction above 600F gets better. That's were any gain comes from in the change.

[motorhead]

This is a great thread. Thanks for telling me so much. The reliable upgrades are more than I want to spend right now. I was hoping there was a less expensive solution. I am going with the quality rotors, pads, and ss lines for now. I am focusing on the LS1 conversion right now. If that works out I will be needing better brakes! Meeting with talented custom builder on Tues for the install plan. I will post findings.

[HeavyDuty]

One quick note;

The newer Dynalite calipers from Wilwood are supposedly better than the previous generation, which is what we had on the car I mentioned. I want to say the newer ones are billet.

Only fair to clarify, yet I have not seen the improved caliper.

[AZhitman]

motorhead - Were you able to find out about those brackets? They look SO simple.

I think I may go ahead and do the 12.5" upgrade, since I get the rotors wholesale.

BTW, those 3000GT rotors aren't cheap...

[AZhitman]

Whoops - never mind, just got an email reply from them...

[motorhead]

What did you find out?

[AZhitman]

Didn't give me a price... Dammit.

Re-emailing...

I think the 12.5' rotors will be sufficient. I measured my 60-0 a few times, no fade, not too bad of a distance (avg of 135 over 4 stops).

NOTE: At least I think those are good numbers....

Big fat Q REALLY protests under maximum braking...

[AZhitman]

Also just found a "how-to" from another company that makes the Skyline upgrade adapters...

I may just go with the Z calipers in front and the bigger 12.5" rotors all the way around. Pads are critical, as are tires. Very little ABS action at threashold braking when i did my testing. Also, this was done in the heat of the day on old tired rotors (turned 3 times, ready for the garbage), 160 TW rating tires and Axxis MM pads on all corners.

Dennis, care to shed some light on the numbers for me?

[Q45tech]

It all depends on how much the rotors and calipers weigh [the fallacy of light aluminum calipers] [sure they help unsprung weight but they get hotter via the conduction path thru the hub.

90-96QFront Disc BrakeCylinder Bore Dia.1.685 in (42.8 mm)Brake Pad DimensionsLength 5.0 in (127 mm)Width 0.433 in (11.0 mm)Thickness 0.433 in (11.0 mm)

Rear Disc BrakeCylinder Bore Dia1.50 in (38.2 mm)Brake Pad DimensionsLength 3.835 in (97.4 mm)Width 1.335 in (33.9 mm)Thickness 0.39 in (10.0 mm)

A 12.5 rear rotor vs oem 11.5 should increase force = 8.7% in lb/ft whereas 12.5 vs oem 11.02 = 13.4%.......actually not bad with standard proportion valve and oem calipers.

Why not use oem caliper and larger rotors with adapter to move them out to fit.

In theory front calipers could probably be made to work with 30 mm maybe even 32 mm thick rotors.......actually brake pads could be ground thinner by a mm [fronts start out 11mm].......bet there is a 2 mm slack at least.......how thick are shims?

Same with J30 rears .

Have to have rotors drilled out maybe use LS400-430 front rotor----hub opening too small 60 mm vs 66mm Nissan.

Some where on some car is a 114.3 5 lug that is thicker.

That's what we need to find 11" x 114 with 5 holes x 32 mm.

[Q45tech]

http://www.ultimategarage.com/bbrotors.html

My kind of precision reworking of rotors he set thing to within 0.001" and marks notes on the rotor! but $125 eachThe lathe shown in pictures is what we use at T3.

http://www.ultimategarage.com/bigbrake2.html

[AZhitman]

Dennis - I've found it.

3000GT 12.5" rotors.

Gonna try to add those with some aluminum 300ZXtt calipers on the extension bracket...

[DAEDALUS]

The ultimategarage really is the ultimate garage. Facom makes snap-on look like a goodwill tool sale.

[AZhitman]

If you put on 300zx aluminum calipers on the front, add in a set (10) of longer wheel studs (+13mm) to go with the spacers you'll need (also 13mm). Get them from NISMO - I couldn't find them anywhere else; and they don't make your pedal feel weird.I have the part# somewhere.

Squee - think these will be necessary with an 18" wheel?

[Q45tech]

Remember a sliding caliper [oem] with 2 piston ACTS like it has the area of 4 pistions when calculating forces."The reason is because the piston presses directly on the inboard pad, but the caliper body itself acts as an "inverse" piston and pulls on the outboard pad via the pad frame (the part that arches over the top of the rotor). At any rate, there's a factor of 2 you have to remember if you want to compare sliding calipers to fixed calipers. "

"in order to use 300ZX calipers with larger rotors, they need to be moved outward more than just the diameter difference between the larger rotors and the stock Z rotors because the rotor channel of the Z has the wrong radius for the larger rotors. So you have to move the caliper outward a bit extra, so the top of the pad hangs off the edge of the rotor, meaning the center of the pad is now a bit further outward as well."http://www.sae.org/events/bce/tutorial- ... ch...3.PDF

[AZhitman]

Got it - Thanks Dennis.

Looks like I'll be doing the 12.5" rotors, the 300ZX calipers and the hawk pads. ALL for around $350.

[AZ94Q]

It will be interesting to compare our braking distances..

[AZhitman]

I posted my current distances above...