poor design aspects

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i thought it'd be interesting to hear some of your experiences with poor design on vehicles. now i'm not talking faulty things or the such, but little things that do their job, but have an adverse effect on you or the car's performance. stuff we might not notice when searching for new vehicles. example...

i was driving my mom's 9th gen lancer today. it was low to mid 50's outside hvac off, yet while driving my face was stupid hot. i could feel my skin drying up and getting tight. what could be causing this? that stupid 10' deep black dash. now i have to turn the air on which bogs the engine and makes it even more of a dog than it already is.

also, absolutely NO comfortable place to rest your arms. center console is small and pushed towards the back, the door panel arm rest is too far to rest your elbow without reaching, and the damned window is too high to be comfortable (i'm a HUGE fan of driving with my left arm hanging out the window).

IF i were considering a lancer ( :eek: ) this would be something i'd like to know about before-hand. i like to be comfortable when i drive casually. i know that most of us focus on the mechanics while test driving and would ignore these types of quirks while trying to listen closely to the engine/exhaust or fiddling with electronics or crawling underneath.

so...whatca got?


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numbnuts240 wrote:i thought it'd be interesting to hear some of your experiences with poor design on vehicles. now i'm not talking faulty things or the such, but little things that do their job, but have an adverse effect on you or the car's performance. stuff we might not notice when searching for new vehicles. example...

i was driving my mom's 9th gen lancer today. it was low to mid 50's outside hvac off, yet while driving my face was stupid hot. i could feel my skin drying up and getting tight. what could be causing this? that stupid 10' deep black dash. now i have to turn the air on which bogs the engine and makes it even more of a dog than it already is.

also, absolutely NO comfortable place to rest your arms. center console is small and pushed towards the back, the door panel arm rest is too far to rest your elbow without reaching, and the damned window is too high to be comfortable (i'm a HUGE fan of driving with my left arm hanging out the window).

IF i were considering a lancer ( :eek: ) this would be something i'd like to know about before-hand. i like to be comfortable when i drive casually. i know that most of us focus on the mechanics while test driving and would ignore these types of quirks while trying to listen closely to the engine/exhaust or fiddling with electronics or crawling underneath.

so...whatca got?
If we're brainstorming, some thoughts on the cause of your discomfort:

1. you're feeling the after-effects of a Taco Bell meal
2. The seat heaters might have been accidently turned on.
3. It could be the bi-level outlets that normally blow air at the windows are aimed at your face, and it's possible the HVAC doesn't turn off completely which would result in a slight dry warm breeze espeically if the warm/cold setting is on warm
4. We're talking a mitsubishi, so there's some built in stress to expect something is going go sproing with it. ;)
5. A black interior can conduct heat on a sunny day making it warm inside even if the outside temperature is in the 50's.You didn't mention if the window was ope while you drove, just that you can't rest your arm out the window.
6. Nala was in the backseat blowing sweet nothings into your ear.

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I rode in a friends chevy HHR SS the other day. Several complaints from that.

1. The "cool" red mesh trimmed cloth seats and door panels reminded me of a highschoolers eclipse. They were the ghey
2. The "chopped top" made 6 "3 me feel like a gorilla and I know it blocked his view of traffic lights in the city. ( I actually tried to view the light through the sunroof)
3. Although I didn't drive it, the 5spd transmission sounded like a POS. not the transmission itself but rather the shift lever and archaic noises it made as he shifted. ( he knows how to drive stick no grinding, just cheap sounding components.
4. The dash was fully plastic with shorty overlaying panels with GM's 10 yr outdated green backlit display in 8 bit fashion on the stereo.

I said nothing to him about my dislikes, just commented on the low mileage and kept my negative comments to myself as he drove us to the show.

Next vehicle :06 SAAB 9-3 2.0T ( my wife's ride)

The armrest is equipped with a sliding armrest topper. Which never stays in place. Upon any slight forward pressure it rips forward clicking cheaply. The dash and seat make plastic squeaking. I must compliment them on the premium choice in leather which in comparison makes the leather in my SE-R look like a homeless mans coat.

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Bubba1 wrote:1. you're feeling the after-effects of a Taco Bell meal
no taco bell in my diet.
Bubba1 wrote:2. The seat heaters might have been accidently turned on.
no heated seats, and i only felt the heat on my face. swamp a** was non-existent.
Bubba1 wrote:3. It could be the bi-level outlets that normally blow air at the windows are aimed at your face, and it's possible the HVAC doesn't turn off completely which would result in a slight dry warm breeze espeically if the warm/cold setting is on warm
vents were actually closed. i had to open them and aim them at my face when i turned the air on.
Bubba1 wrote:4. We're talking a mitsubishi, so there's some built in stress to expect something is going go sproing with it. ;)
i'm not a fan of them. my mom likes them, despite my constant griping about how i hate them. her last four cars have been mitsus (mirage, then 3 lancers).
Bubba1 wrote:5. A black interior can conduct heat on a sunny day making it warm inside even if the outside temperature is in the 50's.You didn't mention if the window was ope while you drove, just that you can't rest your arm out the window.
window wasn't open (open windows on this thing create a horrible vortex inside and stupid noise). like i said, i only felt it on my face. all the panels were cool to the touch except the stupidly deep dash. it wasn't too hot to touch, but it was stupid warm, so i ruled that to be the culprit of the emanating heat.
Bubba1 wrote:6. Nala was in the backseat blowing sweet nothings into your ear.
i don't own any guns, but i am puerto rican, i have blades everywhere. nala would be sporting a glasgow grin in no time. wanna know how he got those scars?

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No offense mean to your mom, Tito, but Lancers are absolute trash. I've never understood why anyone would buy them. The previous generations were so mindblowingly ugly that I can't even imagine anyone walking into a car dealer with their vision intact and saying "Why, yes! I'd love to give you money for that!" And that's ignoring the terrible engineering, crummy reliability, and spectacular cheapness of the car. I cannot fathom the idea of CHOOSING to own a Lancer. It's like choosing to buy a Cavalier. It's beyond comprehension. There are exactly eleventybillion compact cars available in North America and the only one that even approaches the Lancer's level of terrible is the one that shares engineering with it: The Caliber (and its ugly Jeep cousins).
One of the highest things on the List of Stuff that makes MoD Want to Unleash a Universe-Collapsing Primal Scream is douchebags who drive around in OZ Rally edition Lancers like they've got the baddest piece of motor engineering on earth. My brain simply shuts off to avoid the possible disaster. I cannot cope with the...indescribable terribleness of it all.
numbnuts240 wrote:(i'm a HUGE fan of driving with my left arm hanging out the window).
Me too. Yet another (add to the huge list) reason I hate modern high-beltline car design. The LS8's windowsill is fortunately low enough to rest an elbow on for me, but I'm friggin' tall. It's also really narrow, but not so narrow as to be uncomfortable to rest your arm on. My dad's Ram drives me nuts because the sill is at the perfect height, but the actual lower rubber seal for the glass protrudes above the plastic, making it a very uncomfortable place to rest an arm.

I also find that far too many cars have center arm rests that are placed too far rearward. I blame the prevalence of Fail-O-matic transmissions. One more reason I love my LS: sliding adjustable arm rest that moves forward to be EXACTLY where I want it, with my hand resting comfortably on the leather-wrapped shift knob. My dad's Maxima has an adjustable arm-rest, too, but it only has two positions and they're both wrong. One is too far back, and the other is too high. Neither lets my hand rest comfortably on the shifter.

My LS actually doesn't have many of those little things that get in the way. It's the BIG things (lack of LSD, lack of a clutch) that get in the way. Ergonomics are great, visibility is generally good unless you're tall (I can't see the top ~1/8th of the speedo through the steering wheel while seated comfortably), controls are well located... My biggest gripe, honestly, is that I have to remove nine screws and a plastic aero panel every time I change the oil. The panel removal takes as long as the whole damn oil change. The filter and drain plug are both well-located and easy to reach without the need to lift the car. But I spend ten minutes taking that damn panel off and ten minutes putting it back on every effing time I change the oil. Are passthrough ports REALLY that much to ask?!

I could go on and on about the little crap that bugs me about my sister's C-class, though. I never liked the C-class before, but driving and working on one has increased my dislike substantially. The gauge cluster is a mess. Huge instruments crowded together awkwardly, with the focus on a pointless backlit dot matrix multi-function display. The Check Engine light is positioned PRECISELY so that it is obscured by the turn signal stalk, which itself is positioned way too low (close to 8 O'clock). And where the signal stalk should be is the awkwardly-sized cruise control stalk, which is too far forward and too short in length to be easy to flick and which has labelling printed at obscured angles.
Then there are the interlocking panels of ballistic-grade plastic which must be removed to access the oil drain plug. Like the LS, they're tedious as Hell to remove. But these are more tedious because they're thick, heavy, and the two of them have to come out together. Ever wonder how a tiny little 2-door with no butt manages to weigh 3500lb? I have your answer: half a ton of plastic protecting the bottom of the engine from road debris. You could sell these things to developing countries as modular building materials and they'd last generations with absolutely no upkeep.
Oh, and why are the seat controls so stupid? Spin a knob to adjust seat recline angle? YES! EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED. I TOTALLY WANTED TO SPEND TWENTY MINUTES TURNING AN AWKWARDLY-POSITIONED KNOB SO MY SEAT COULD RECLINE 3 MORE INCHES! I'M SO GLAD MERCEDES-BENZ ENGINEERS CAN READ MY MIND!!!!.

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The F150's I drive at work:

Can't use the windshield washer with the windows down or it'll get all over the interior. -_-
Very unresponsive transmission, If I'm cruising and hit a yellow, I'll floor it, and it won't kick down to 2nd until I've crossed the traffic lights, which are now red, and then when it does kick down, you need to slam on the brakes.

The off button for the HVAC is in the wrong spot, it's with the vent controls, not the fan speed. WTFFF

The brand new F350's I drive at work:

Very sharp edges on the interior trim panels. Ex. The lower steering column cover and the lower part of the arm rest on the doors. Banged my knees on them so many times, it KILLS!.

Clunky suspension and s*** steering ratio.

The 3rd gen Hyundai Accent's I also drive at work:

CHEAAAAAAAAP Plastic dash and interior bits.

Slow responding tachometer and speedometer. When you stop, at 0 KM/h, the needle is still slowly making its way down from 20KM/h -_-.

The hood shakes during idle, and can somewhat feel it in the interior. The fleet Accent's have an average of 50 000 KMs on the clock, shouldn't be happening.

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asoomal wrote:The off button for the HVAC is in the wrong spot, it's with the vent controls, not the fan speed. WTFFF
Ford has done this for ages and I've never met anyone who isn't baffled by it. I complained about this constantly with my Ranger. Fortunately my current Ford has digital climate control rather than knobs, so Ford wasn't able to curse it with such backwardness.

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brake levers that are on the passenger side

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alms24sebring wrote:brake levers that are on the passenger side
is that necessarily a bad thing when you have an attractive female date in passenger seat? Oops, sorry babe, I was reaching for the brake. :cool:

I dunno, I can find gripes with just about any car, but I kinda take them into account with the positives. Some of the ones that stand out to me include:

BMW' i-drive. should be more like i-suck. The newest generation is tiny bit less awful, but if you want to change a radio station, it takes 23 movements of the knob to do it. As opposed to pushing a single button on my Toyota.

Fords: infotainment system. "Outta Sync". A Lincoln salesman went thru it all with me (received a $50 offer to test drive a Lincoln). Overly complex, and took him a few tries to get it to work. While bragging that the system's design involved Microsoft, it balked. So I asked him, does that mean each time it catastrophically fails, I have turn the whole car off and then turn it on?

Lotus Exige: A lotta guys love them, and I like how they drive, assuming you fit, but there's no dignified way to get in/out of them. The normal places you'd grab onto are carbon fiber, so you can't put any pressure on them. Of course, as an optimist, I can see that difficulty getting out being a plus if you have a date. She can get in, but she ain't gettin' out without an assist. Also you can't see behind you without the side mirrors in those cars.

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MinisterofDOOM wrote:No offense mean to your mom, Tito, but Lancers are absolute trash.
lol, no offense taken. i hate the cars. she claims she's had good luck with them, i just tell her that's because she doesn't keep them long enough for s*** to go bad. she recently mentioned she wants an outlander :facepalm:

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Name a car, and I can give you a list of annoying oddities.

Lancer. Teriicle ergonomics, flat useless seats, giant dash. The B pillar is too far forward, so open windows create terrible noise/wind. Though this last part is true of many sedans. One of my beiggest peeves about them. They have terrible cheap front suspension/braking systems. They chew through tie rods, ball joints and brakes. This is made 100 times worse by the fact that, on any given day 1 of 5 different suppliers of parts may have been used by chyrlser/mitsu so getting the correct parts is a nightmare. Selling year, build date, plant location, and I swear car color all take part in deciding whats needed, but nothing is set in stone. This is also true of the Dodge caravan/Chrysler Town & Country.

This brings me to the above vans. If thier terrible reliablity, and prevelance on the road didn't mean job security, I would be happy to see ever single last one of them burn to the ground. Hopefully with some of the stuck up bitchy owners trapped inside.

For any given model year, there are 4 different brake packages, 3 different engines, 2 drive layouts, 3 HVAC setups and 5 different trim levels. Not only that, but the model years bleed together. I have seen 10 of 01 vans packed full of 2000 parts, and 09 of 01 vans with mostly 2002 parts. 2 completely different generations, 1 year, endlessly annoying.

Nothing more fun then trying to replace a lug stud, and of the 5 studs specified by the manufacturer, NONE of them fit. I could go on and on about problems with these things. They are money pits once over 60,000 miles.

Chrysler 300/Dodge Magnum/Charger. Underpowered unrefined drivetrain. The cheapest interior of any car built this side of a yugo, its wrong on so many levels. The mega high beltline makes visibility nonexistant, and the windows are too high to rest your arm on. The suspensions fall apart, and make all sorts of horible noises after 30,000 miles. Did I mention how cheap/ugly/poorly designed the interior is? I can't say enough bad things about these cars. Except the SRT8s, they changed just enough to make them liveable. If it weren't for the ease of mounting a bently style grille, and 24" wheels, I doubt 8 of 10 would have ever made it off the lot.

Dont even get me started on the PT loser. Its one of the things that inferiates me about the gov bailout of GM/Chrysler. Chrysler DESERVED to die. They dug thier grave 100 times over over the last 20 years. They worked to alienate millions of car buyers from ever touching an american built car. Sadly, so many people are so poorly informed, and they would only keep cars for 20-30,000 miles and 3 years, that they would never notice the atrocious build quality/engineering, that they have no knowledge of just how bad they are. Because of this, the company dragged themselves on, keeping above water, by nothing more then sheer luck

//end I hate chrysler rant.

Seriously, name a vehicle.

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The gas pedal in my Saab is too far to the right. I have to rest my leg against the center console to reach it. I had to buy narrower sandals because they kept getting stuck down there.
Also, the accessories and belts are up by the firewall. This means that the transmission is in front of the engine. The positive is that the engine is mounted further back. The negative is that belt and pulley replacement is a bit of a nightmare.

I dont understand why the Corolla's CD-MP3 head unit has no shuffle mode.

The BMW E46 convertible I had was a pain in get in and out of unless the top was open. I literally rolled out of the car to get out. Of course, I was 35+ pounds heavier back then. I think the car was designed for skinny dudes wearing double-popped Lacoste polos. I learned to use the key to open the top before getting in.

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Alot of new cars dont have the cell phone holder as I like to call in the in the door panels. They are always just handles and I hate when I try to put something in there and it just falls to the floor.

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asoomal
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^

That reminds me, the CD holder area underneath the deck. (Single DIN system in a double DIN fitting).

The CD's shouldn't come flying out when you floor the car when it is stock...it just shouldn't.

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Speaking of your mom Tito... How is Daisy doing? I'm sure she's still looking fine. Tell her I said Hi.

So as far as poor designs,
Mercedes C300,

COMAND... This is a lot like iDrive in a Bimmer. It is a lot more user friendly than iDrive, but...
The memory card feature for the stereo uses a PCMCIA card. Most of you have preobably never even heard of one.
Rain sensitive window wipers. They're nice. You turn them on, and never touch it again. When it rains, they adjust their speed for the quantity of rain. Except for when the sun breaks through a cloud. Then the sensor goes haywire, and the wipers go into ultra fast mode on a dry window for 10 swipes.
Chrome trim... Why the hell do they put it on. Really, it's not attractive.
Glovebox and console. Both are too small. The glovebox is to small to hold the owners manual. It's too small to really be useful at all.

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I think almost everything currently made by nissan, less a couple cars, have terrible design aspects... :(

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Beancooker wrote:The memory card feature for the stereo uses a PCMCIA card. Most of you have preobably never even heard of one.
ROFL. I have a bunch of them. I even had a sleeve for my old iPaq so I could use a PCMCIA modem card with it. Handheld with WIRES YO!

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Beancooker wrote:Speaking of your mom Tito... How is Daisy doing? I'm sure she's still looking fine. Tell her I said Hi.
:argh

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Yeah, PCMCIA= F**king brick of Sh*t. Seriously, SD cards are a 2012 standard feature for Mercedes. Really? 2012? Should have been 2000. Douchebags.

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lets pick apart my old SVT Focus

1. The 2-Stage intake manfiold and the associated parts: The manifold opens up at higher revs by a actuator puling on a small lever when engaged. Now this small little lever is made of veeeeeeery cheap plastic and is held on by a metal washer and a small plastic nub that has the tendencay to break from stress. What i want to know is WHY THE HELL DID YOU USE PLASTIC FOR A PART THAT TAKES A LOT OF ABUSE! Luckily I had replaced mine just in time with a billet peice, if i didnt then what happens is the plastic lever breaks and the actuator unwinds itself and breaks costing a good $200 just for the actuator. Then there is the rubber couplings that are connecting the manifold to the head. Now youd figure they would dry rot and break over time right? no that would be to easy, the stock ones tend to just slip off and make your motor run like garbage.

2. Dual mass flywheel: .... enough said

3. The coilpack and alternator harness: GOOD JOB FORD, you managed to cut your harnesses so damn short that the wires eventually pull themselves out of the pins. Atleast they were smart enough to sell replacement pigtails with 6ft long wiring.

4. Oil filter: Loacted alllllll the way at the top of the back of the block which means when you unscrew it oil leaks all over EVERYTHING.

5. Seat Adjustment: Levers are something ford really isnt good at, so lets put knobs on the side of the seat that take a good 20 minutes to adjust.

In summary i should of just said the whole damn car

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You could have just said what was good about the car.....

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Plastic intake manifolds. I despise plastic intake manifolds.

They have a finite life before they inevitably crack due to heat cycles. This brings me to my next gripe. Plastic radiators. grrrrr...

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Yeah, I always got a chuckle out of climbing into an S-class and seeing a PCMCIA slot.

Next year, Mercedes-Benz is going to replace COMAND with MS-DOS.

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Jesda wrote:Yeah, I always got a chuckle out of climbing into an S-class and seeing a PCMCIA slot.

Next year, Mercedes-Benz is going to replace COMAND with MS-DOS.
7.0 baby! Scandisk! Native drive compression! FAT32! The future of tomorrow is 1995!

Please insert Disk 2...

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alms24sebring
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Great points. There is alot of bad uses for plastics, especially intake mani's as noted. Fords are epic for this. Ive seen an intake mani blow up on a Ford Escape and it destroyed the entire motor from plastic falling into the motor. Even though plastic may be lighter, it has noe use in a motor. Its ugly, strips and is un-retappable, wears out, and it breaks easier probly because it doesnt expand as fast/slow as metal does.

Oil filters are another good point. Canister filters are stupid. I never liked the automatic wipers either. How the f*** hard is it to flick a switch?! Same goes for DRL's. I hate inverted Torx bolt heads. Ill think of more..

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Functionally, composite (plastic) intake manifolds are very beneficial. They isolate the intake charge from ambient engine bay temperatures. Aluminum and steel are great heat conductors. Plastic is not.

Plus:
Image

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alms24sebring
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Yeah but alot of the lower grade just looks cheap as poop like in Saturns or Fords. Ive always had a hard time working with them too.

So I have heard that it doesnt really matter if its aluminum or plastic because the air doesnt even have enough time to raise in temp significantly as its being sucked through. Whether thats true or not I dont know because there will be radiant heat. I wonder what the difference in temp is from the interiors of a metal vs plastic, excuse me "composite" is after an 30mins of highway driving.

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MoD was talking about ambient temps, the temperature inside the engine bay.

Also, aluminum absorbs heat better than plastic, it's why it's used as heatsinks.
My stock intake was much cooler than the aluminum pipe of my friend's "cold air intake".

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Location: Merrimack, NH

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Agreed. Functionally, plastic intakes are better, but they don't last as long, don't hold up to boost, etc etc.

Plastic radiators just suck balls all around.

User avatar
Mr1der
Posts: 36020
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:35 am
Car: It's still not a Nissan...
Location: Lebanon TN

Post

and seat knobs for adjustment are infinitely better than levers. much more precise. f*** people that wanna ride in my backseat.


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