Ok "independent", "traditional conservatives"

[ishkabibble]

Why are you supporting McCain (who is now pretty much a neocon) over Barr (who, despite running as a Libertarian, is a traditional conservative)?

[OriginalWheelman]

I will not vote for someone who has not served in the military.

[Cold_Zero]

Apparently, he spent 8 years in the CIA? Doesnt that count? I will have to do some more research on Barr, for some reason he looks familiar.bud

[AZhitman]

Your definition of neocon is flawed.

If you'd been around J-Mac for any length of time, you'd know the traditional GOP hates him.

Voting for Barr is a vote for Obama, and I can't in good conscience do that.

[Cold_Zero]

It should be pointed out that John McCain represents Greg's home state. I would think if someone would know McCain well, it would be Greg.bud

[AZhitman]

I don't know him per se, but I have witnessed his effect here at home, and the support he seems to garner from people like me.

[ishkabibble]

Your definition of neocon is flawed.

If you'd been around J-Mac for any length of time, you'd know the traditional GOP hates him.

I don't see the correlation between the two. For example, a hated Dem is still a liberal.

Show me how the John McCain of 2008 is not "pretty much a neocon".

Voting for Barr is a vote for Obama, and I can't in good conscience do that.

Fail. A vote for Barr is a vote for Barr.

And this is why we'll always have to choose from more of the same... on both sides.

[srellim234]

A vote for Barr is a vote for Barr. It is NOT a vote for Obama. It does not add a single vote to Obama's total number of votes on election day. Just because someone doesn't vote for the candidate running in your major party it does not add it to the other party's vote count. It might mean exactly what it is. A vote for Barr. Or, possibly, a vote against both major parties regardless of the outcome.

The Repulicans and Democrats have brainwashed a lot of people into your line of thinking. "A vote for anyone but our guy us is a vote for the other major party's guy and beliefs." NO IT ISN'T.

If people would start voting for candidates and getting away from your "you're either for us or against us" attitude you might find the country in a lot better, less polarized place. Wwe might finally get to have a choice other than one corrupt party or the other in this country.

[Cold_Zero]

I don't see the correlation between the two. For example, a hated Dem is still a liberal.

A liberal is a person who embraces the liberal ideology and politics. A hated Democrat is just that, a hated Democrat. No different from a hated Republican.

Quote »Show me how the John McCain of 2008 is not "pretty much a neocon".[/quote]McCain Kennedy is a perfect example. The approach totally pissed off the Neo-Conservatives in this country, mainly by insulting and putting at risk this country's Sovereignty.

Also and someone please correct me if I am wrong. John McCain favors shutting down the detention center at Gitmo. Most Neo-Conservatives are not in favor of this action.

[ishkabibble]

A liberal is a person who embraces the liberal ideology and politics. A hated Democrat is just that, a hated Democrat. No different from a hated Republican.

Ok fine. But your comment also goes against Greg's statement.

McCain Kennedy is a perfect example. The approach totally pissed off the Neo-Conservatives in this country, mainly by insulting and putting at risk this country's Sovereignty.

One failed project from 2005 does not prove that McCain 2008 is not largely a neocon.

[WDRacing]

Fail. A vote for Barr is a vote for Barr.

And this is why we'll always have to choose from more of the same... on both sides.

It's not a fail it's fact. That is the system we have...period. The entire process would have to be restructured for an independant to actually win.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to vote for another person/party. But I can't...simply because Barr has no chance of winning...ever. So a vote for him IS a vote for Obama. So in the end the smart person decides between the two obvious choices and makes a the choice that is best for him/her.

WD

[Cold_Zero]

One failed project from 2005 does not prove that McCain 2008 is not largely a neocon.

I tend to think that McCain really only looks Neo-Conservative with it comes to the War in Iraq (aka Foreign Policy). He is not an Evangelical (not that you have to be an Evangelical) and on social issues has been pretty left of center. I just see this attempt to paint McCain as a Neo-Conservative as another attempt to make him look like GW Bush Jr. If you want to talk about Neo-Conservative candidates, talk about Hunter, Tancredo, Huckabee and Brownback. They fit the bill better than McCain.

[ishkabibble]

Ok, let's reword my original point and get away from singling out McCain as a neocon; that wasn't my reason for posting this.

I see lots of posts on this forum from people claiming to be "independent thinking, traditional conservatives". So where is the walking the talk? McCain is less of a "traditional conservative than Barr, so where is the support for Barr?

[ishkabibble]

Not true. While America has more or less had a two-party system all along, they have not always been the same two parties. All it will take is 5% voting for a third party for the third party to get their foot in the door... which would have a much greater impact on the direction our country heads than the status quo.

[srellim234]

So a vote for him IS a vote for Obama. So in the end the smart person decides between the two obvious choices and makes a the choice that is best for him/her.

Maybe the smart person doesn't vote to preserve the flawed system he complains about and actually votes his beliefs.

Please show me in the election laws of this country where it states, "any vote for a non-Republican candidate will be added to the vote total of the Democratic candidate instead of the person for whom the vote was cast."

You may say that at this point in time a vote for a third party may result in making it easier or harder for one candidate or another to secure the Presidency, but it is NOT a vote for anybody but the one the vote is cast for.

If I want to vote for Barr then I'll vote for Barr. If I want to vote for Obama then I'll vote for Obama. No citizen of this country will place a vote for Obama by voting for Barr.

[WDRacing]

Not true. While America has more or less had a two-party system all along, they have not always been the same two parties. All it will take is 5% voting for a third party for the third party to get their foot in the door... which would have a much greater impact on the direction our country heads than the status quo.

I know and agree...but right NOW there are two parties running and no Independent has a remote chance. So that is why I'm voting as I am. If he had enough backing to warrant my vote I'd consider giving it.

Maybe the smart person doesn't vote to preserve the flawed system he complains about and actually votes his beliefs.

Your first line insinuates that I'm uneducated... My lowest IQ score is 147 and I have had 12 years of Professional Military Education. I also FULLY understand how the electoral system works in the country I spent almost half my life defending. I have a family, I have children and I live my life the best way I can...

I have earned the right to complain about this system through deed and service...have you?

Please show me in the election laws of this country where it states, "any vote for a non-Republican candidate will be added to the vote total of the Democratic candidate instead of the person for whom the vote was cast."

You may say that at this point in time a vote for a third party may result in making it easier or harder for one candidate or another to secure the Presidency, but it is NOT a vote for anybody but the one the vote is cast for.

If I want to vote for Barr then I'll vote for Barr. If I want to vote for Obama then I'll vote for Obama. No citizen of this country will place a vote for Obama by voting for Barr.

Clearly you misunderstand how many of us think...let me rephrase that, that we have the RIGHT to think. If we understand there to be two people that have any chance of actual election, then we make a choice based on that decision. To me I consider McCain to be a better choice then Obama, some consider the opposite. So if I cast my vote for Barr, it does in fact hurt my candidate. To not see that is simply folly on your part. So stop with the slanderous comments. You can vote for anyone you wish, just like the rest of us.

WD

[themadscientist]

A vote for Barr is a vote not for McCain thusly for all funtional purposes a vote for Obama. Barr doesn't have a chance so it's a lost vote. Like a Nadar vote. Does it have to be explained, seriously?

[ishkabibble]

Sure, but apparently nobody can come up with a decent explanation.

Let's see:-unhappy with the current political system-"independent",-"traditional conservative"

Yet when it comes to walking the talk, the action taken is contrary to all of the above...

[srellim234]

First off, YOU were the one who insinuated that I wasn't educated or smart if I voted for Barr. You said it first; you slandered ME. I responded. BTW, I also am a 140+ IQ so back off.

As for service, the military refused to take me when I tried to join voluntarily. I was a world class track and field athlete but because I had previously had a knee surgery they wouldn't let me in. They told me I was physically unqualified although I was high jumping over 7', triple jumping over 46' and competing in decathlons. My son is USAF right now. My dad was USN in the Pacific in WWII. My brother served in the Army in the early '70s. I have been involved in many political campaigns since Goldwater was running while I was in grade school. So our family has served as best we can. You can get off your pompous high horse.

If you believe a vote for Barr makes it easier for Obama to win, then say so. I would agree. But don't slander me for voting that way and don't say it's a vote for Obama unless you can back that up with an added number in the Obama column every time someone pulls the lever for Barr. If that's happening, then we have serious election fraud on our hands.

I've been involved in some third party campaigns attempting to help a third party become mainstream so we have more choices in this country. What have you done to change the status quo besides complain about it? And tell people they're not smart if they do try to change it? You've obviously given up. Some of us haven't.

[smockers83]

I'm starting to wonder if people really know what a neoconservative really is?

[themadscientist]

He said it to ishkabibble, not you. "he started it", where have I heard that before? Oh yes, a child trying to excuse bad behavior. I don't care what IQ you jokers have. I have known too many "smart" people that were as functionally stupid as one could get and not accidentally kill himself. IQ does not automatically equate to good judgement.

Don't be so touchy, life will be extremely frustrating for you.

[rn79870]

Actually, he said that to srellim234,

[AZhitman]

I should ban anyone in this thread who says stupid crap like "what have you done" or "why not try to change things" if they are NOT politically active.

Steve, I see that you have, so I'm not singling you out. But it's absurd how many people try to coach from the stands instead of getting a whistle and a clipboard and earning a spot on the sidelines.

I don't see the correlation between the two.

The big space between the two sentences indicates a disconnect - Two unrelated statements, with no intention of correlation.

I'm a pretty damn fart smeller too, y'know.

[srellim234]

I don't care what anybody's IQ is but the man seems to think that because he's got a high IQ and military service he's somehow better than the next American.

I still believe in America enough to believe that the only wasted vote is the one that isn't placed. Staying home on election day is absolutely the wrong thing to do. And every vote makes some kind of a statement. For someone, against someone. For a party, against a party. For a third party, against both major parties. And no vote is for anyone other than the person it is placed for. And no vote that is actually placed on election day is wasted.

Many Republicans are making the assumption that all Barr voters would be McCain voters if Barr wasn't there. Not so. Some voters would be looking for someone else simply because they will not vote for McCain and/or they don't like what the Republican Party has become.

Voting for the lesser of two evils will never change the fact that you wind up voting for an evil.

[ishkabibble]

Actually, he say that to srellim234,

... and WD was the one being touchy, not srellim.

I'm starting to wonder if people really know what a neoconservative really is?

So you think McCain is more "traditional conservative" than Barr?

This addresses your inquiry: http://www.carnegieendowment.o...=zusr

[ishkabibble]

The big space between the two sentences indicates a disconnect - Two unrelated statements, with no intention of correlation

Ah. Then point out the flaws in my definition.

My bad. Still, I don't see how the GOP hating him is relevant.

Voting for the lesser of two evils will never change the fact that you wind up voting for an evil.

Classic.

[rn79870]

... and WD was the one being touchy, not srellim.

So you think McCain is more "traditional conservative" than Barr?

Actually, it was Smockers83 who penned "I'm starting to wonder if people really know what a neoconservative really is?", not me, so I'll let him answer it.

[ishkabibble]

Sorry about that. I forgot to edit the tag when I was copying and pasting. (If NICO has a multi-quote feature, I'm unaware of it. )

[WDRacing]

Look...the both of you...Ish, Steve...whoever.

I'm not being testy or anything. I'm explaining my stance and I did so after what I felt was a slander. If I was in the wrong...so be it. But calm the hell down. For Christs sakes...who cares...really. I'm voting for McCain for the reasons posted, if you agree or disagree well, thats on you.

Quite being whiners. I mentioned the IQ cause you said I was stupid after I replied to ISH...no harm no foul.

I'm not better then anyone, nor have I said so...we're all equal when it comes to opinion and how we express it. If you guys want to take this thread and get all caught up in dramatics then feel free to do so.

Peace, I'm OUT.WD

[ishkabibble]

But calm the hell down.For Christs sakes...who cares...really.Quite being whiners.If you guys want to take this thread and get all caught up in dramatics then feel free to do so.

DoubleyewTeeEff

There is only one person in this thread causing a scene, so to speak... and it's not me or srellim.