NRRB: The Curse Continues.....

[Shocker]

Well as some might know I've been building a rb25/26 Hybrid. 87mm JE pistons, Eagle Rods, ACL Race Bearings, ARP studs everything, N1 pump's, Cosworth HG....

Well anyways I got my engine assembled and built at a local REPUTABLE shop. Paid 700 dollars for it all in the end. Well I spent my whole spring break after work piece my pile back together, well today was the day for a cranking.

1st issue, FP not working. Fixed it loose ground ok easy.

Next motor sounds very weird while cranking, like its not doing anything. But it is the cam gears are rotating, okay sweet, maybe no spark or fuel? Check both by rotating CAS manually yup both spark and fuel, plugs are wet.

Some more cranking, this ****ing motor hasn't even made a pump, and the starter sounds like an electric drill as if there is ZERO load on it. So we next to do a compression check.

1st cylinder NOTHING.2nd cylinder NOTHING.

we continue to check them all and yes, ZERO, I mean ZERO compression on all 6, not even a single PSI, hmmmm maybe gauge is wrong?

So we test it on a working car, and yup it works.

Next we removed the valve covers to inspect the lifters, all are still solid as can be, we check the timing marks, they all line up still perfectly.... next we do a leak down...

I tested 1-3 oh yes it seems that basically all the valves are leaking.... I was so ****ing pissed I didn't even check 4-6 because most likely it would be the same result.

How does this happen? I have no idea, but I have a bill right here in front of me saying all 24 valves were inspected and shown to be holding vacuum. I haven't the slightest clue. The timing belt is perfect, everything is how it should be....

So I'm going to the shop Monday after work and between class to have a chat with the owner, I want him to personally come to my garage and have a look see because this is ****ing ridiculous. I've got 6 weeks to vacate my **** from this garage, and running low on funds, and I have little to no time to work on my car now.

oh yeah, its becoming a hate to remove and reinstall my engine....

heres some pics anyway, I was pleased my my oil cooler, that makes me happy.

[onepuff]

Is the engine even cranking? Sounds like maybe the starter isn't engaging the flywheel.

[Darius]

Do you have the lifter lash adjusted/shimmed properly? The valves could seat fine, but if the lash is off, they will stick out. I agree with you that it is probably the valves leaking. When you did the leakdown, was it the intake or exhaust valves leaking? Was it consistent or one or the other or both??

Who did the head assembly? If the shop did it, I would go chew the owner's a$$. If you assembled it yourself, I would double check the valve lash first. I don't think a valve job could be that botched to cause zero compression reading.

Did you count the teeth marks in the belt between the tick marks on the cam gears to make 100% sure that it is timed right?

[StricNyne]

damn bro !! soo CLSOE we are one in the same !!! good luck man 2 rb27 on the road soon !!! good luck !!

[Shocker]

Do you have the lifter lash adjusted/shimmed properly? The valves could seat fine, but if the lash is off, they will stick out. I agree with you that it is probably the valves leaking. When you did the leakdown, was it the intake or exhaust valves leaking? Was it consistent or one or the other or both??

Who did the head assembly? If the shop did it, I would go chew the owner's a$$. If you assembled it yourself, I would double check the valve lash first. I don't think a valve job could be that botched to cause zero compression reading.

Did you count the teeth marks in the belt between the tick marks on the cam gears to make 100% sure that it is timed right?

To answer the first question the starter is engaging, the cams are moving while cranking, along with all 6 coils firing in proper sequence along with the injectors.

They assembled the rotating assembly, then fixed a few leaking valves, checked the whole head for leaks, said it was fine. The installed the cosworth gasket at ARP head studs, placed the head on the block, and I picked it up that way.

All I did was place the lifters back in, installed my cams, timing belt and so forth.

Yes Matt I'm 100000000% sure the timing is spot on. I checked it about 5 times meticulously counting every tooth according to the FSM, along with insuring the marks were on, before I even turned the motor over by hand. After I did that I turned the motor over about 20 odd times to insure EVERYTHING was dead on.

I take it shimming is something they would have done? How do you even check the valve lash? You saying the springs might not be pressing up on the cap or retainer w/e the hell its called causing the leaking?

The leak on #1 was coming out of the intake, the leak on 2 and 3 actually was spooling the ****ing turbo....

oh yeah one more thing, leak downs are done at TDC right for which ever cylinder you are checking?

[DriftingisLame]

Is this an rb26 or rb25 head? If its an rb25 head, do you have some tomei solid lifters or something?

[Shocker]

Is this an rb26 or rb25 head? If its an rb25 head, do you have some tomei solid lifters or something?

rb25 head/block , rb26 crank: rods and pistons. Stock Hydro lifters that I just rebuild, all are like new.

[DriftingisLame]

Those lifters are called "hydraulic lash adjusters" for a reason. You do not need to adjust them.

I've probably swapped cams 6 times on my motor. I've never adjusted lash. I believe I confirmed it the first time in the FSM, but it was a couple years ago.

[Shocker]

Those lifters are called "hydraulic lash adjusters" for a reason. You do not need to adjust them.

I've probably swapped cams 6 times on my motor. I've never adjusted lash. I believe I confirmed it the first time in the FSM, but it was a couple years ago.

That is what I thought too, apparently there is more? If not I don't understand what would be causing them to leak....

[Coolwhip]

the lash adjusters can only adjust to a certain range.

Did they do a valve job? Or disassemble the head? (maybe you covered it in a previous post)

[Shocker]

the lash adjusters can only adjust to a certain range.

Did they do a valve job? Or disassemble the head? (maybe you covered it in a previous post)

They hot tanked it so I think they might have. I know for sure the 6 cylinder all valves were removed..... Lash adjusters are where exactly?

[Coolwhip]

just as DriftingisLame noted, they are the lifters, the name use is interchanged alot.

But in order to hot tank they must of removed the valves. If any of the lash adjusters or shims were swapped around you can have yourself some headaches.

With the RB26 motors they have 70 different size shim sizes. Then again its a solid lifter setup.

I would believe they would reseat the valves and do a valve job with all the extensive work done to the motor at that time.

[Shocker]

Yeah I'm gonna have to have a talk with him on monday, see exactly what the deal is before I start tearing into my headache.

[Coolwhip]

So they disassembled the motor and reassembled it?

Or did you have a par-take in the festivities?

[Coolwhip]

BTW, I was searching for a Picture of a turbo today, and I came across a picture of your motor and I was like, "damn who's motor is this, I haven't seen this one before"

HAHAHA, good stuff, lets see this thing running!

[Shocker]

So they disassembled the motor and reassembled it?

Or did you have a par-take in the festivities?

No I was leaving it to the professionals to insure matters such as whats currently happening WOULDN'T...

thanks man, you have no idea how bad I want this ****er to move on its own power.

[S14-NEO]

just a thought but is it possible that the lifters arent pumped up yet...and im sure you know that if they arent pumped up those valves will never ever open up and make any kind of magic happen at all..just a thought

this is also one way to check it (messy)...while the valve covers are off, have a buddy crank over the engine and see if the lobs of teh cams are actually pushing the valves open. one other thing you could try tois, squirt a few drops of oil into each cylinder one cylinder at a time and check your compression again. if the compression jumps then you coudl have issues with the rings and not the valves at all...(not likely) though

[Coolwhip]

i think his leak down test determined the valvetrain. And eliminated the rings from the problem.

But if the lifters are calapsed as in not blead, they would make a whole bunch of noise but still create compression.

Must be with either the seat of the valve, or the lash clearance. If there is not enough the cam center lobe will slightly push down on the valve creating a leak when "suppose to be closed" position.

smells fishy

[DriftingisLame]

smells fishy

Indeed, smells so fishy in fact that it seems like this has to be something really simple. Think about it. The bottom end is really really hard to get wrong, so at the very least, you wont have to remove the motor again. Worst case scenario, you'll have to remove the head.

Dont get too bummed out, just keep chippin away at it.

Good luck.

[Shocker]

i think his leak down test determined the valvetrain. And eliminated the rings from the problem.

But if the lifters are calapsed as in not blead, they would make a whole bunch of noise but still create compression.

Must be with either the seat of the valve, or the lash clearance. If there is not enough the cam center lobe will slightly push down on the valve creating a leak when "suppose to be closed" position.

smells fishy

Exactly, even If I didn't have lifters in the head...

However every single one of my lifters has ZERO squish, I rebuilt all of them a few weeks back to insure this. I even inspected all of them yesterday with the valve covers off.

Your most likely right about that Ricky. That makes sense because if they tested the valves w/o the cam shafts, none of the springs would have been compressed in anyway other than what the valve's are preventing by being pressed in the head.

If they adjusted/changed any of this shimming/lash? and now my Cams are installed it is possible that even the roller part of the cam, not even the lobe I guess are opening all the valves.....

I know what you are saying about removing the head, I've done it before its still a ****ing pain. Big problem is I have a $200 cosworth headgasket that I do now believe is ruined.....

What do you guys think the best bet is? Give them the head back with the cam shafts so they can insure 10000% that there is ZERO leaks while the cams are installed in the head?

EDIT something I just thought of. Ok Hydro lifters... they are supposed to adjust to give the proper lash adjustment correct? The oil flowing into them allows this, granted there is proper oil pressure? Because there is no oil pressure yet since the motor has yet to be fired, will this have any bearing on them adjusting to the proper size?

[Coolwhip]

did you prime the oil system?

They sould of turned the engine to build compression before ever even giving it back to you the customer.

[Shocker]

did you prime the oil system?

They sould of turned the engine to build compression before ever even giving it back to you the customer.

prime? Didn't think we could even do that with our engines due to the oil pump configuration, I poured oil in both valve covers before I capped them. Thats about as much priming as I did.

[Coolwhip]

pulling fuel and spark, and turn key for a few seconds about 15sec, and then stop, and repeat the process over and over for like 2mins, to build proper oil pressure before anything starts spinning fast.

Dropping some oil into the oil fiter. Wetting the head with some oil. etc.

[Shocker]

pulling fuel and spark, and turn key for a few seconds about 15sec, and then stop, and repeat the process over and over for like 2mins, to build proper oil pressure before anything starts spinning fast.

Dropping some oil into the oil fiter. Wetting the head with some oil. etc.

I could stop at my garage later after work and give it a try see if I can build some pressure. I hate the sound of my motor turning over now, it doesnt even sound like an engine, just an electric motor spinning with no load lol.

[Coolwhip]

the starter is in FACT turning the flywheel? As in harmonic balancer and cams are turning when the key is turned?

I wonder if they forgot to torque the head down, :/ that would be ****ty

[Shocker]

the starter is in FACT turning the flywheel? As in harmonic balancer and cams are turning when the key is turned?

I wonder if they forgot to torque the head down, :/ that would be ****ty

lol, that was my first thought when I hit the key for the first time. It is in fact turning the WHOLE motor over....

I can check to see if its torqued, but yeah, it definitively should be.

So far the motor has only fired 2 times(as in 2 cylinders only...)... once when I was turning the CAS by hand, it actually was enough to get the turbo spooling fast lol...

It sounds so weired listening to my starter turning my motor over as if they spark plugs arnt even in the holes..

[Darius]

Shocker - Did you get new valves or reuse the stock RB25 valves that were in your motor?

The hydraulic lifters have nothing to do with the valves seating properly. The springs hold the valve closed. The lifter does not have anything to do with the valve staying open unless the valve stem is too long, compresses the lifter completely and there still isn't enough room for the cam lobe. The only way I see it being the valves is if you got new valves and they were wayyy too long.

[Shocker]

nope stock valves.... so attempting to build oil pressure in my block will most likely do nothing?

Matt any ideas on how the shop could have ****ed my valves up when placing them all back in?

[Shocker]

Ok well I just went to my garage to get my spare valve parts the shop removed out of my doner head....

I see how they go together for the most part, I take it these shims are the washer like things? Anyone of diagram of the section view of the whole assembly placed together?

[Coolwhip]

wait a second. They took valves from another head and implanted them in yours?

IF so, Darius hit it on the nose most likely. The lengths of the valve stems result in different hight valves. One being too tall with the wrong size shim makes it a cluster **** and clearances go out the window!

Then again I'm probably hungry