NRRB: The Curse Continues.....

[Shocker]

wait a second. They took valves from another head and implanted them in yours?

IF so, Darius hit it on the nose most likely. The lengths of the valve stems result in different hight valves. One being too tall with the wrong size shim makes it a cluster **** and clearances go out the window!

Then again I'm probably hungry

s1 head to s1 head.... um well with the shim its possible, I take it they make them valve specific for EACH head?

They only used 8 valves total 4 of which are on the #6 cylinder.... but every single cylinder has no compression.... I will be talking with the builder tomorrow afternoon hopefully I'll find some sort of answer.

[Carl H]

sounds like mismatched valve seats to me...

[Shocker]

sounds like mismatched valve seats to me...

as in the seat in the combustion chamber itself? With the back of the valve head pressing against the cylinder head?

they guy claimed they didn't leak when he tested them.. now the cams are installed and they are leaking...

[omgsky]

I second that notion. Doesn't sound like they're seating right.

[Carl H]

its possible that they were ground wrong and its not seating completely causing it to leak compression...its really the only thing that could do this as hydro lifters are conformational to valve clearance...no shims needed on hydrolifters.

[Shocker]

these seats actually the head and just the surface they call a "seat" or are they removable I've never looked really close.....

[Coolwhip]

thats the thing, if he checked them while the cams were out then he didn't check them properly.

Once the cams are in they make contact with the lifters. And if the valve stems are longer now, due to either different valve installed. Mismatched valve, not seating correctly, etc.

Usually, to compensate the difference that is needed for lash they would grind down the valve stem down a fraction.

The cams must be installed when checking this so hopefully they did that atleast.

I'm still hungry

[Shocker]

The cams must be installed when checking this so hopefully they did that atleast.

I'm still hungry

No they didnt, I had the cam shafts. I told them if they needed anything to call and let me know, which they never did......... I guess they might have just assumed it would work? They mainly do built v-8's and very few imports, but NO one around here does imports so I had little options....

quit eating popcorn on my expensive, you haven't got your 26 running yet.

[Darius]

With hydraulic lifters, there is no need for shims because oil pressure pumps them up to take up the slack between the lifter bucket and the cam lobe. Now If Ferrea cuts your valves too short and the lifter can't extend far enough to bring the bucket up to the cam lobe resulting in slapping, then you have to buy valve stem caps for a ton of dough. Ahh yes, another fun path my NRRB brought me down.

Sounds like the shop ground the valve seats too deep. Did they take any pictures of the head before they assembled it to the block? If you got valves from another S1/S2 head, there shouldn't be any length variation besides intake to exhuast. Exhaust valves are 2mm longer but 5mm less in diameter than the intake, so there is no way they could possibly mix them up unless they have Down's syndrome. Now if you got NEO valves, they are about 15mm longer so it would be an obvious mismatch and they would have to call you and ask WTF? What cams do you have installed? Stock?

[S14-NEO]

i also agree...i had a similar problem when i had a shop do my head when i had an SR..they cut the seats and did a radial cut on my valves...but they didnt compensate the valve tip height..so i had to take it all apart and cut the tips of the valves to get the valve stem height close enough to shim properly..

[Shocker]

i also agree...i had a similar problem when i had a shop do my head when i had an SR..they cut the seats and did a radial cut on my valves...but they didnt compensate the valve tip height..so i had to take it all apart and cut the tips of the valves to get the valve stem height close enough to shim properly..

Sounds like I might have a similar issue here....

This is really starting to piss me off, I hope the shop is reasonable with me here.... Because not to mention all the time I've wasted, I've gotta replace a HG and intake manifold gasket now.... if the head is the actual case, which I'm 99.99% sure it is.

Matt, I've got stock re-ground colt cams in my head. Theres no ferrea valves in my head, I only bought one from them and they didn't use it. They are all stock s1/s2 style valves.

[S14-NEO]

yeah if you have access to a FSM , check in the valvetrain section under specs and it should give you the info you need...come to think of it if i can find it for you ill post it up with pics if i can find it.

[Shocker]

yeah if you have access to a FSM , check in the valvetrain section under specs and it should give you the info you need...come to think of it if i can find it for you ill post it up with pics if i can find it.

Yeah if you could, both of my FSM's dont have the 25 head in detail, but they have the 26's in very big detail.

[Darius]

After sleeping on this, I am wondering if the lifters have room to shorten, but haven't gotten enough oil pressure to release the ball check valve in each assembly?? How long have you cranked the motor while trying to start it? Try disconnecting the injector harness and turning the motor over with the starter (~15 seconds at a time) to build oil pressure to the head.

For the Colt cams, do they weld on the entire cam area and then regrind the material off? Or do they just weld on the top of the lobe to get more lift? There would only be an issue here if the closed part of the cam (can't remember the proper term right now) was thicker than stock.

[Shocker]

I was wondering that to about the bleed off, but I'm afraid to **** with it more until I talk with the builder. The engine has probably turned over less than 40 times since being installed, maybe not even that. Total cranking time is most likely about 30-45 seconds....

As for the colt cams, I'm not exactly sure how he does it, I never asked specifics, but Minivan Don has the SAME cams with ZERO issues. So I'm ruling them out. Not to mention when I had just their exhaust cam installed previous on my other block it had compression.

thanks for the chart. where did you find it?

[Darius]

Ok, I agree with you on the cams. I was just fishing for another possible explanation for the valves not closing. This narrows it down to your lifters not adjusting due to no oil pressure yet OR your valve seats were ground too deep and/or your valves were back cut too agressively and you'll have to disassemble the head.

I'm wondering if you couldn't machine the bottom of the lifters down instead of having to pull the valves and machine their tips.

Found the diagram in the back of the R33 FSM. I think I used to have a version that was missing that section so maybe you have that version.

[Shocker]

Ok, I agree with you on the cams. I was just fishing for another possible explanation for the valves not closing. This narrows it down to your lifters not adjusting due to no oil pressure yet OR your valve seats were ground too deep and/or your valves were back cut too agressively and you'll have to disassemble the head.

I'm wondering if you couldn't machine the bottom of the lifters down instead of having to pull the valves and machine their tips.

In the back of the R33 FSM. I think I used to have a version that was missing that section so maybe you have that version.

Think I should stop at my garage first give the oil pressure a shot before heading to the machine shop to talk it over with the builder? They are 5 minutes from eachother....

I'd just hate to make anything worse, not sure the safe amount of cranking on a new engine with no oil pressure that isnt about to fire....

[Darius]

The pump is a positive displacement pump so every time you turn the crankshaft it is moving fluid and building pressure.

Just be sure to pull off the injector harness clip because otherwise you'll dump a bunch of gas into the cylinders and into the oil. Not good. Run the starter for a few extended cycles. Then, reconnect the injector harness and try to start the engine like normal. If it doesn't fire right up or sputter, you know the lifters didn't adjust. Go talk to the builder.
Modified by Darius at 8:27 AM 3/17/2008

[Shocker]

Alright I shall give her a go, I get off work at 1, so I'll give you guys an update afterwards, I appreciate all the advice. A buncha heads are always better than one.

[Carl H]

hydro lifters will still work regardless of being flat or not, they just wont take up slack in the valve train when flat and will be noisy...worst case scenario is the valve WONT open because of the flat lifter but if that was the case then there should be compression.i say poorly ground valveseat/valve...but what do i know.

[Coolwhip]

think you were searching for the term "base circle" of the cam, something like that, no?

Anyways, would an aggressively cut valve cause it to sit further up into the seat causing the valve stem height to increase? Thus, reducing the lash clearance between the lifter and cam causing it to push the valve open a bit. Causing no compression.

With the cams out they would probably seat just fine, but with them installed they pushed open the valves.

Go build oil pressure, and check from there.

Skipped breakfast, so I'm still

[Darius]

Yep you're thinking clearly Coolwhip.

Carl, he said he rebuilt his lifters and after you do that, the lifter is set at whatever height you install them until oil pressure builds enough to push on the ball check valve and allow the lifter to adjust its height. If they were flat initially, you're right on. They'd just be noisy until pressure was built to extend them. If they were installed tall, they would prevent the valve from seating until pressure pushed on the ball check valve and let them bleed oil and shorten accordingly.

[Coolwhip]

yay, we're on track here!

LOL, watch we'll be way off. Spark plug holes leaking compression.

[Shocker]

yay, we're on track here!

LOL, watch we'll be way off. Spark plug holes leaking compression.

lmao, noo!

I have been taking both of those ideas into consideration, because either one of the two has to be happening. Both make logical sense when thinking about it.

Like Ricky said, I'll try to build some pressure and if that fails, head to the engine shop to see exactly wtf they did.

[Coolwhip]

pick me up a samich while your out, I'm hungry

(I'm interested in how this all comes out, and what exactly went wrong here)

[Shocker]

pick me up a samich while your out, I'm hungry

(I'm interested in how this all comes out, and what exactly went wrong here)

Chicken Fillet? mmmhmm..

As I am..... trust me....

[Shocker]

Looks like I cause my own problems...

After talking to my engine builder telling him whats going on his first response is "well your valves are bent"... I'm like NOOO!! thats not possible lol....

So then I proceed to tell him I rebuild my lifters... hes like ahhh. Well turns out I did it wrong according to him, your NOT supposed to refill them with oil before installing them. Which is what I did, so I placed them in fully solid, thus he feels they arn't compressing and overcoming the valve spring strength thus opening my valves.

He said the only cylinder they disassembled was the 6th. He said they checked ALL of the valves for leaks and none leaked without the lifters/cams installed.

I guess he has had the same issue with VW engines, their hydro lifters need to be completely squished when installing otherwise they pop valves open.

He said I shouldn't have used any oil other than some lubrication when I rebuilt my lifters and I should be able to compress them a bit by hand, he said of course I'll have lifter tick until the motor warms up and gets proper oil pressure then the lifters should hold their proper size and function properly.

So to check is theory he recommends getting my motor TDC, leak down test my 6th cylinder, then loosen the cam caps at the end of the block a bit and retest the 6th cylinder, if its sealing my valves are good and its the lifters problem.

Worst case is looking: cams are all going to need to come out, and I will have to smash down my lifters then reinstall everything. I'm testing this **** after class tonight and will update later.

[Darius]

That is what I am leaning towards too, but that is why I wanted to create oil pressure to get those lifters to bleed down and be shorter. You are supposed to put oil back in them or there will be air in the lifters. Did you fill the bottom part, then slide the top part in and push down the ball valve to get it to bleed? The lifter should be good to go if you did that.

I still suggest that you try turning the motor over like I described and then trying to start it. It is free and easy to do.

Is there any way to externally pressurize the oil system ahead of the lifters?

[DriftingisLame]

Loosen the cam caps on one end of the cam? Doesnt that sound sketchy to anyone else?

[Darius]

Yah I wouldn't loosen them too far or that biatch could snap. Good call DIL