Nissan BRZ competitor?

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flohtingPoint
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Hijacker wrote:I'm still trying to wrap my head around how people consider the S-chassis' suspension design to be poorly made...the fronts are budget minded, yes. But that's pretty standard for entry level Japanese cars. Even Mitsu used McPherson for the Evo. It's not as radically awesome as a wishbone setup, but it's not exactly the worst design ever made. Nissan did err on the side of ride comfort when the engineers were selecting bushings. The rear suspension is the exact same as a Z32 or a Skyline, so I'm kind of dumbfounded how those cars could be considered poorly designed too when that design was created to win AJGTC races. heck, the S13 replaced the R32 in AJGTC when the R32 was regulated out, and it still took podiums.
Full blown race cars have NOTHING to do with production models, there is nothing in those cars that confine to what you can get from Nissan themselves, so any relation to actual race cars is terribly moot. Those cars have 20 hour motors and drastically altered suspension geometry, the only thing they have in common with what you get from the factory is the name.
And I come from an autocross background as well. My only regret with my S13 in autocross is that a a turbo car wasn't an ideal choice for my old region's track setup. But every S-chassis I tracked in autocross were competitive in street mod, and while I wasn't the best driver, my racing partner would consistently take 1st in class with the same car. All we did for the suspension was stronger springs and T/C bushings. Power wise, we had a stock SR20 with the turbo pushing 12 psi. Not exactly a powerhouse.
Your competition sucked horribly, plain and simple. I beat up on local chumps in my Corolla all the time, even went to Philly and beat up on them, but in national level competitions the car was always several seconds off the pace. We have garbage cars winning local crap almost every week, it doesn't mean the cars are good, it just means the people they're facing are that bad.

Look, for getting to work or 7-11 the car is fine. For anyone looking for a competent vehicle in motorsports, its anything other than such.


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themadscientist
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Having the benefit of owning a 180SX and an R32 Skyline at the same time, I can offer some critique. I don't run around cones in a parking lot jammed in second gear, I drive all types of roads and conditions at various speeds. the S-chassis was an effective suspension and indicative of its time and its peers. It was not a high-rank car so its suspension was not nissan's best effort.

The S chassis comes loose very easy. That can be a benefit if you are into sliding around, but can be a bad thing if you are trying to get as much go to the ground and maintain your chosen lines. One good thing about the s chassis' behavior, it comes loose very linearly. You can feel a lot through the wheel and your butt and it's an easy car to learn and drive consistently.

The Skyline was of a higher rank and was much more planted than the S chassis. It stays stuck for a very long time and inspires great confidence. Front upper control arms were known to have a high failure rate, but when they worked, they worked well. If you goal is to get around a track as fast as possible, the R chassis is far superior. Now, since it likes to stick, when you lose traction you lose it significantly and without the gentle nudge the S chassis gives you. It's a harder car to learn, but has more potential.

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flohtingPoint wrote:[
Look, for getting to work or 7-11 the car is fine. For anyone looking for a competent vehicle in motorsports, its anything other than such.

Jim: That's right.The majority of the folks here fall into the first category. Their cars are mostly DD's. You are among the few in the second category (motorsports). Nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's cool. :dblthumb:

But if you're chatting with a roomful of proud cat owners, for example, would you agree those owners might get a bit offended if you harshly proclaim their cats suck because they can't be trained to perform in a circus as easily a dog? It might be true, but given that this audience will likely never use their cats in a circus, perhaps if a less blunt delivery of your view might work better. Make sense?

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alphapig
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Wow I'm so very tired of hearing about GLORIOUS AUTOCROSS and how it solely defines a cars quality.

Dude, you're nailing it around a parking lot with cones, it's very cute but it does NOT warrant the massive ego.

Go out on a real track day.

I apologize ahead of time for my rage.

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themadscientist
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Wear your helmet kids.

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PapaSmurf2k3
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Autocross is fun, but it definitely isn't my end all be all make or break when buying/judging a car.

Fortunately the 240 has such strong support, you can change out whatever component you don't like and essentially set it up for whatever the heck you want. It's the only platform I've ever owned 3 of. It's like my Cadillac if you were comparing me to Jesda.

Its cheap RWD fun. Period.

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themadscientist
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Exactly what it was designed to be. Mission accomplished Nissan. It's the Nissan equivalent of the hachiroku. The Skyline is the 5.0 Mustang of Japan.

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themadscientist
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I kind of like that actually. Nissan doesn't have the cajones to execute, though, so it's as useful as a centerfold when you want to get wet.

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Hijacker wrote:Even Mitsu used McPherson for the Evo.
I don't disagree with your overall point, but the Evo is NOT the posterchild for proper engineering. It's a great example of doing the most with the cheapest parts available, but it is NOT how you're "supposed" to build a performance car. Tuner compacts are not sports cars. They're s*** cheapmobiles with lots of power, tweaked suspension, and sometimes an extra driveshaft or two. How THEY do things is not "right" and certainly should not be held as an example of the proper way to do things. It's merely affordable. It is DESIGNED to be affordable.

The fact that one particular performance car based on the cheapest POS cheapmobile in all the cheapmobile universe uses MacPherson struts does not make it a desirable attribute. Doesn't make it bad, either (The new 991 911 uses it up front, for instance). It's completely irrelevant.

Note:
My hostility is directed at the Evo, which I detest. Not at you, Bart. :)

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themadscientist
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I'd take the EVO over the WRX, but it's like choosing between gonorrhea and herpes.

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Not gonna lie, I'd rock either one.
I'm still waiting for Nissan to drop the juke a few inches, bump the power to 300, and offer the awd with a manual. Then going evo/impreza hunting.

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MinisterofDOOM wrote:My hostility is directed at the Evo, which I detest. Not at you, Bart. :)
Awww! :) We can cuddle afterwards?

The Evo isn't the pinnacle of engineering, but given its "golden child" status, I figured pointing out that a company can take multiple world rally champ podiums using a McPherson setup would be a decent analogy. Now I'm contemplating retro fitting a Z32 wishbone front into my S13 when I do my major teardown/rebuild...

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themadscientist wrote:I'd take the EVO over the WRX, but it's like choosing between gonorrhea and herpes.

:spitout:

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themadscientist wrote:I kind of like that actually. Nissan doesn't have the cajones to execute, though, so it's as useful as a centerfold when you want to get wet.

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Come on, Nissan. I need some help over here. Give me a reason to not buy an FR-S this fall.

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flohtingPoint
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alphapig wrote:Wow I'm so very tired of hearing about GLORIOUS AUTOCROSS and how it solely defines a cars quality.

Dude, you're nailing it around a parking lot with cones, it's very cute but it does NOT warrant the massive ego.

Go out on a real track day.

I apologize ahead of time for my rage.
Look son, when you do ANYTHING at all noteworthy in the world of motorsports, then you can comment on what I've done.

A real track day hmm? How about the ring, which I've driven more times than I can count having lived in Germany for two and a half years? Here is a "cute" little photo from the Nordschleife webcam of my S13 staging to get onto to it.

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Or how about Hockenheimring, which I went to nearly every Thursday it was open? A little wheel to wheel action with a BMW captured in this photo.

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I think it's safe to say that I'm very familiar with all aspects of S13 performance and capabilities.

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themadscientist
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"son"
You old elder statesman you. Tell us about trading paint with Ayrton Senna, pop. that must be him in the ragged-out BMW. :lolling:

C'mere sonny, sit on grandad's lap, have a wherther's original and I'll tell you about when I was a racecar driver.

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flohtingPoint
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themadscientist wrote:"son"
You old elder statesman you. Tell us about trading paint with Ayrton Senna, pop. that must be him in the ragged-out BMW. :lolling:

C'mere sonny, sit on grandad's lap, have a wherther's original and I'll tell you about when I was a racecar driver.
Go ahead "Granddad", tell us about anything you've done aside from joyriding on public roads... You can't act above anything when you've done nothing. Look there "old timer" (since you can't understand that "son" is a colloquialism) call me when you turn a wheel in major regulated motorsports. I never have said "I'm the best" at anything (go ahead, search my posts), but when you're sitting there with no accomplishments at all, you have no room to critique anyone who is out there fighting for tenths of a second.

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themadscientist
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Hahaha. You cries are delicious.

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First, you make the erroneous assumption that my feeling license to critique you is predicated on you respecting me. It isn't. Your opinion is useless to me. Mine appears to bother you a bit, though, and I really enjoy that. ;)

While you have not said it in so many words, your attitude betrays your ill-conceived opinion of yourself. I hope you stretch before bending over to kiss your own a**. Don't want to pull a hammy.

I'm calling you right now, "son." I don't give two s*** what you have done. You might be as good as you think you are, but that still would not give you licence to strut around with your balls out like a baboon in heat. Inflated egos, much like bubble wrap, are so fun to pop. It's that that draws me to you like a fly to steamy s***, not whether or not you can back up what you say. I am sure the cones tremble in fear when they hear you coming. I, do not. Poke poke :poke:

I know you are near my old neighborhood. I think the next time I get the chance to go home we should definitely get together at a local kart track and run em. Take it easy on grandpa, though. After all, I don't know nothing because there wasn't a stopwatch around when I was doing what I was doing. :rotfl

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Cliff notes to this point:
Nissan should make a Toyabaru competitor.
Leave the Z alone and make a totally different chassis.
floahting point is looking silly and childish.

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themadscientist
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I was at Toyota today looking at one. I gave them a stern talking to about the Subaru engine and they actually did look embarrassed and actually apologized! :rotfl

Turns out the salesman, a little older than me which is still pretty old, used to own a hachiroku. He agrees it's no AE86. That being said, it's a viable car in its own right. While I am not fond of the Scooby motor and the rear comes off a bit stunted IMO, I think Toyota and Subaru have a winner here. It's got enough motor to get out of its own way that will probably accept upgrades with little protest, it's rear wheel drive and arguably affordable.

It was a real b**** to get into with the seat in the driving position. I would have to slide it back, get in, then slide it forward. The climate controls and gauge layout is pleasing, but the passenger side dash doesn't work aesthetically. Black interior with red baseball stitching, well played gentlemen. :dblthumb:

I won't ever want to own one, but in this market, I have to say they hit the mark.

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flohtingPoint
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themadscientist wrote: I don't give two s*** what you have done. You might be as good as you think you are, but that still would not give you licence to strut around with your balls out like a baboon in heat. Inflated egos, much like bubble wrap, are so fun to pop. It's that that draws me to you like a fly to steamy s***, not whether or not you can back up what you say. I am sure the cones tremble in fear when they hear you coming. I, do not. Poke poke :poke:

I know you are near my old neighborhood. I think the next time I get the chance to go home we should definitely get together at a local kart track and run em. Take it easy on grandpa, though. After all, I don't know nothing because there wasn't a stopwatch around when I was doing what I was doing.]
I dont strut around like anything. I pop in from now and then and give an option on something and then people like yourself take it personal and troll it saying "who gives a s*** about autocross" even though for years before autocross I did time trials on several continents... Find a post where I'm bragging about all my accomplishments? It doesn't exist, because I dont. I've stated them before, but I dont brag about them ever and I've never said I'm better than anyone else. Either way, you have no say on anything because my BMWCCA students have more seat time than you in regulated motorsports. You have no idea whats good or bad because you havent done the data research or run in any reputable association. If I'm wrong, go ahead and feel free to give us some data logging of your (insert s*** here) on (insert jackassing on public roads here because you have no record of motorsports). Oh, you dont have any data? Oh, well that sucks...

We can go to Beaverun if you want, I have beacons I can setup for times and sector timing so you dont have to worry about the human factor of a stopwatch. We can run the shifter or the rotax, you can have your pick, though if it's winter we're running the rotax because the shifter is an expensive motor.

BTW, you ever answered the question, "what have you ever done in motorsports?"

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FWIW, flohtingpoint is really cool in person. I don't know why you've turned this thread into another pissing match though, Jim. No one is disputing the fact that you have motorsports experience, so I don't know why you're feeling the need to constantly defend yourself. No one is trying to pick on you for no reason, you're just coming off a bit arrogant through the typing.

As its been stated before, the 240sx isn't a performance vehicle, just like the BRZ. They're fun affordable cars that you can get in and get a nice grin from, just like your old AE86 (I'm unsure if you still have it or not, last time I checked your blog I saw that you've been dabbling in other things :) ) People get confused and call the 240sx a "performance vehicle" because of its potential. At this point you can get a 240sx and throw a V8 or practically whatever engine you want in it with a proper suspension setup and have a nice fast car. Most people don't judge a vehicle based on its performance around an autocross course, or even its performance around any track.

The point is, Nissan wouldn't be in the wrong IMO if they created an affordable fun car again, like the 240sx. Again, not saying the 240sx is a performance car. Its a secretary's car, like the old mustangs. Affordable, fun, somewhat economical. Just enough to get a nice grin on your face.

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krash wrote:FWIW, flohtingpoint is really cool in person. I don't know why you've turned this thread into another pissing match though, Jim. No one is disputing the fact that you have motorsports experience, so I don't know why you're feeling the need to constantly defend yourself. No one is trying to pick on you for no reason, you're just coming off a bit arrogant through the typing.

As its been stated before, the 240sx isn't a performance vehicle, just like the BRZ. They're fun affordable cars that you can get in and get a nice grin from, just like your old AE86 (I'm unsure if you still have it or not, last time I checked your blog I saw that you've been dabbling in other things :) ) People get confused and call the 240sx a "performance vehicle" because of its potential. At this point you can get a 240sx and throw a V8 or practically whatever engine you want in it with a proper suspension setup and have a nice fast car. Most people don't judge a vehicle based on its performance around an autocross course, or even its performance around any track.

The point is, Nissan wouldn't be in the wrong IMO if they created an affordable fun car again, like the 240sx. Again, not saying the 240sx is a performance car. Its a secretary's car, like the old mustangs. Affordable, fun, somewhat economical. Just enough to get a nice grin on your face.
I fully agree that Nissan would make a huge success if they create something similar to the 240sx. So how does one put such a request to Nissan? If I could knock on their door I would.

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PapaSmurf2k3 wrote: ... I'm still waiting for Nissan to drop the juke a few inches, bump the power to 300, and offer the awd with a manual. ...
Now that sounds like a good idea.

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themadscientist
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flohtingPoint wrote:I dont strut around like anything.
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flohtingPoint wrote:I pop in from now and then and give an option on something and then people like yourself take it personal and troll it saying "who gives a s*** about autocross" even though for years before autocross I did time trials on several continents... Find a post where I'm bragging about all my accomplishments? It doesn't exist, because I dont. I've stated them before, but I dont brag about them ever and I've never said I'm better than anyone else. Either way, you have no say on anything because my BMWCCA students have more seat time than you in regulated motorsports. You have no idea whats good or bad because you havent done the data research or run in any reputable association. If I'm wrong, go ahead and feel free to give us some data logging of your (insert s*** here) on (insert jackassing on public roads here because you have no record of motorsports). Oh, you dont have any data? Oh, well that sucks...?"
Your bragging can be found in this very thread. :facepalm:

As far as who gives a s*** about autocross, don't get your panties in a bunch. You easily dismiss other motorsports so why get butthurt if others don't care about yours?

You don't read very well. That's probably why you can't understand what you have or not done behind the wheel is immaterial to the discussion as it's your pisspoor attitude I take issue with.

As far as taking it personal, I don't. I would have to put weight to your opinion and the scale hasn't flinched. You provide me with entertainment.
flohtingPoint wrote:We can go to Beaverun if you want, I have beacons I can setup for times and sector timing so you dont have to worry about the human factor of a stopwatch. We can run the shifter or the rotax, you can have your pick, though if it's winter we're running the rotax because the shifter is an expensive motor.
That would be awesome. I wish I had access to something like that around here. Let's do the cheap stuff. I'm hard on equipment and don't want to blow an expensive Kart motor.
flohtingPoint wrote:BTW, you ever answered the question, "what have you ever done in motorsports?"
I'll ask you a counter question. What motorsports are here where I live? I'll give you the answer, none. Your attempt to assert that driving in a sanctioned event somehow guarantees a superior driver is specious. Even if it would provable it is not relevant to what you and I are involved in here.

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krash wrote:FWIW, flohtingpoint is really cool in person.
I've met him and I agree. I'm hard on him here, but don't mistake it for bad feelings. I just like giving him a hard time. It's super cool he gets to do what he does and that he is putting in the work to get good. :dblthumb:

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I've had a talk with a few folk that are on this board and it has been brought to my attention that I do come across as elitist. I'm sorry about that and I till attempt to correct my posts. I think there might be something lost in translation from Mediterranean attitude vs American ***hole bravado, and I will work on correcting that.

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I'll still see you at racewarz. Looking forward to running that track with ya. :dblthumb:

You have gotten me interested in karts now, darnit, right when it looks like the weak excuse for a track we have is probably going to shut down! :frown:

I might have to see if they will let me enter the Hijet in something. If the turbo motor swap comes off, it might be fun to, gulp, autocross it. Yeah I said it. flameproof suit activate!
:couch

It's all we have left here because I ain't going to drift the thing!


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