Nissan BRZ competitor?

[300ZXttZMAN]

My camry went 240,000 miles (175K of it on the same water pump), does that mean it's a great performance car? You can do everything the 240SX did for you with my camry... Nissan already has enough boring vehicles in it's line, it does not need another one.

So you had fun driving your Camry? I guess I understand that (even though its weird as f***) but its an opinon and everyone is entitled to an opinon.. But you had more fun driving your camry than you would if you drove a 240sx? Ok still thats your own opinon... BUT thats not what were arguing here, the point is that it is an entry level RWD car. Its not even in the same group as a camry. So how could you even compare the two ??

Really? How many competitive s-series have you driven/built? I drove these POS' all over Europe, it took an exorbitant amount of money/time to make mine class ready to take podiums.

None, but again were not even talking about that. Were talking about if the S-chassis line is a good line of affordable vehicles and if Nissan should make another one. I assure you that the majority of people would say it is and they would want Nissan to make a new one. Even if they don't intend to buy one they would still like to

Hope you have fun with your new Camry... I imagine since you had so much fun with the old one in the past you are going to eventually buy another one.

[NolimitZ32]

I'm sure we've all seen this

And judging by the direction that Nissan's design has been headed this may not be too farfetched of a prototype, in which case they can keep it because this will NEVER compete with the BRZ/FR-S/FT-86 because this is just so damn UGLY and seemingly huge and heavyset compared to the competition.

[orangeNblue]

[RicerX]

Fully seconded. That thing is a mechanical abortion.

[300ZXttZMAN]

Fully seconded. That thing is a mechanical abortion.

[alms24sebring]

Where does it say that Nissan has to build a competitor? If they do it will be perceived as a Toyobaru want-a-be. Nissan needs to go back to the drawing board and build a car that represents the future of the brand. Now is not the time to "copy" but to connect with true sports car enthusiast. I even hope the Altima Coupe is discontinued in favor of a new entry level sports car. One thing Nissan could bring is a mid engine with fuel economy but with performance. Don't make it like the NSX, but put the body of Nissan's ESflow on it. A 2 seater with the option of an auto and manual transmission. Oh, and make it around 28k. Can Nissan do it, time will tell. Nissan NEEDS a car but not the BRZ/FR-S.

Thats exactly right. I think that idea is achievable and also affordable. Not looking for another supercar or pre-supercar like an NSX, but a modern day fun sports car that is simple, fun, looks good, and most of all RWD

[300ZXttZMAN]

The powerplant for the 250ZXR could be a 2.5L straight 6 DOHC turbo charged (T28 internal waste gate) with 370cc injectors, forged pistons/rods and a tripple forged crank and a viscous differential with the option for 6 speed standard or an option to have a 5speed auto.

I would like to see a turbo'd inline 6 with less comforts and geared more towards performance.

We're looking for a cheap RWD car. Those specs put it very close into the 370z's territory.

Sorry I took so long to respond krash but yes that is what I was talking about using that power plant for the new Z.

I think the name would be kick a**, 250ZXR (for the USDM market atleast).... Can I get a hell yea?

The S chassis should have the Juke engine.

[numbnuts240]

I think the name would be kick a**, 250ZXR (for the USDM market atleast).... Can I get a hell yea?

no. no you cannot.

[300ZXttZMAN]

^

[srphoenix]

if they do it, it better be something along the lines of the BRZ, meaning a focus on handling, supreme chassis characteristics, and an all-around fun car to drive. If they decide to put a turbo in it and make it 250-300ish hp, than I'll be putting a deposit on it as soon as I can. Granted they don't muck up the styling too bad.

[orangeNblue]

I'm in 100% too as long as it doesn't look like that ungodly abomination above. It kinda looks like a crossfire mixed with more ugly.

[flohtingPoint]

Jim: what on earth made you think the 240sx was a performance car? It was a budget priced sporty coupe, designed for the street, not the track. It was no more a sports car than a Toyota Celica, Honda Prelude, or Ford Probe of its day. The fact it was a RWDer, made it more entertaining to drive. So I'm not sure how you can conclude it was a boring car.

Methinks you're thinking too much like an autocrosser. The 240sx front suspension was perfectly fine for it's designed use and quite durable. What mess? I enjoyed tossing mine around with the stock McStruts, as it was very easy car to rotate and it never broke down. That's why drifters love them. At the end of the day, it was a momentum car, not unlike the cars it sold against. The only thing the 240sx really needed, and most of the autorags agreed, was more power. the saddest part of the 240sx was Nissan had the right motor (SR) and even used it in the Japanese market but decided against using it in the US version.

It's not, everyone else says it is. It's much like a probe or prelude, but the celica is actually a good car (none of which are "sports cars" as they have back seats).

I think like someone who wants to get productivity and victories from a vehicle, the 240SX takes too much money to fix all it's problems to do both. As far as setup and geometry goes, a drifter wouldn't know a properly setup car if it punched them in the face, they drive the WORST setup vehicles. Every drift car I look at is a total mess in terms of setup and parts. It's not even a momentum car, if it was that it would be ok, it's just a tweener that is a total mess. The saddest part of the 240SX isn't that it was missing the "right" motor, it was that it was just horribly engineered.

BTW, so what if I think like an autocrosser. Autocross shows the true potential for a vehicle in the amateur ranks. It quickly weeds out bad cars from good cars. It shows you what the vehicle is capable of in a regular Joe's budget.

[Bubba1]

Jim: what on earth made you think the 240sx was a performance car? It was a budget priced sporty coupe, designed for the street, not the track. It was no more a sports car than a Toyota Celica, Honda Prelude, or Ford Probe of its day. The fact it was a RWDer, made it more entertaining to drive. So I'm not sure how you can conclude it was a boring car.

Methinks you're thinking too much like an autocrosser. The 240sx front suspension was perfectly fine for it's designed use and quite durable. What mess? I enjoyed tossing mine around with the stock McStruts, as it was very easy car to rotate and it never broke down. That's why drifters love them. At the end of the day, it was a momentum car, not unlike the cars it sold against. The only thing the 240sx really needed, and most of the autorags agreed, was more power. the saddest part of the 240sx was Nissan had the right motor (SR) and even used it in the Japanese market but decided against using it in the US version.

It's not, everyone else says it is. It's much like a probe or prelude, but the celica is actually a good car (none of which are "sports cars" as they have back seats).

I think like someone who wants to get productivity and victories from a vehicle, the 240SX takes too much money to fix all it's problems to do both. As far as setup and geometry goes, a drifter wouldn't know a properly setup car if it punched them in the face, they drive the WORST setup vehicles. Every drift car I look at is a total mess in terms of setup and parts. It's not even a momentum car, if it was that it would be ok, it's just a tweener that is a total mess. The saddest part of the 240SX isn't that it was missing the "right" motor, it was that it was just horribly engineered.

BTW, so what if I think like an autocrosser. Autocross shows the true potential for a vehicle in the amateur ranks. It quickly weeds out bad cars from good cars. It shows you what the vehicle is capable of in a regular Joe's budget.

The reason why I made it an issue that you're thinking like an autocrosser. is because you seem too focused about the 240sx's lack of competitiveness at autocross (an application for which it was not designed), while dismissing its many positive attributes as a simple "fun" car. To illustrate my point another way, one does not need an upgraded racquet or fancier tennis shoes to have fun playing tennis. Make more sense?

[frapjap]

The reason why I made it an issue that you're thinking like an autocrosser. is because you seem too focused about the 240sx's lack of competitiveness at autocross (an application for which it was not designed), while dismissing its many positive attributes as a simple "fun" car. To illustrate my point another way, one does not need an upgraded racquet or fancier tennis shoes to have fun playing tennis. Make more sense?

Or current decade Hustlers/Playboys/internet to enjoy jerking it.

[Bubba1]

The reason why I made it an issue that you're thinking like an autocrosser. is because you seem too focused about the 240sx's lack of competitiveness at autocross (an application for which it was not designed), while dismissing its many positive attributes as a simple "fun" car. To illustrate my point another way, one does not need an upgraded racquet or fancier tennis shoes to have fun playing tennis. Make more sense?

Or current decade Hustlers/Playboys/internet to enjoy jerking it.

[RicerX]

Where does it say that Nissan has to build a competitor?

Nissan's business model says it needs to for several reasons. The base of enthusiasts the Nissan has ignored for many years that are now buying this car (including an admin on this very forum) because Nissan has nothing to offer in that segment. A 370Z is around $40,000 well equipped - there aren't many people that can afford that kind of "fun car". The car literally has no practicality to it whatsoever - very few people can make that a primary car. The BRZ/FRS costs half of what a Z costs - that is much more reasonable. People still want to have fun with an automobile, and Nissan is too busy making crossovers to notice.

If they do it will be perceived as a Toyobaru want-a-be.

Not if they do it right - if they do it right, they'll beat the Toyobaru at its own game, and it will be the car many buyers have been waiting for since 1998.

Nissan needs to go back to the drawing board and build a car that represents the future of the brand. Now is not the time to "copy" but to connect with true sports car enthusiast.

I fully agree with this statement. However, I believe Nissan connects with true sports car enthusiasts that reside within a shrinking demographic - those that have the expendible income to afford a GT-R or a Z. They're missing one sports car segment and it is the one Toyota and Subaru are, dare I say due to current sales figures, reviving. Nissan has stayed away from this market due to a perceived risk in the market not being strong enough to sustain the expense of building this type of car. Take that, and add it to the fuel economy crunch in the US market and there's why we haven't had a new S-chassis.

One thing Nissan could bring is a mid engine with fuel economy but with performance. ... A 2 seater with the option of an auto and manual transmission. Oh, and make it around 28k. Can Nissan do it, time will tell.

Sounds like you want them to lower the price of the Z.

[AZ89two4Tsx]

The Z is a great car, Nissan shouldn't even think about downsizing it. For the money, it's pretty much the best sports car you can get out of the box. Putting a smaller engine in it/replacing it would probably be the worst decision the brand could make.

There's plenty of demand for a smaller sports car, I'm sure Nissan sees that. I think they're strategically waiting to see how the BRZ/FR-S plays out until they roll out their own version.

[RicerX]

My camry went 240,000 miles (175K of it on the same water pump), does that mean it's a great performance car? You can do everything the 240SX did for you with my camry... Nissan already has enough boring vehicles in it's line, it does not need another one.

There were plenty of faults with it, starting first and foremost with a genuinely terrible mcstrut configuration, the front end of that car is a total mess. An SR20 wouldn't change the faults with the suspension/geometry.

The true test of a "performance" car is something that can be competitive out of the box. The 240SX was MASSIVELY far from such, it's slow, clumsy, and soft. The 370Z, however, is a very competent vehicle, and fits the needs of anyone looking for a proper entry level performance vehicle. I'd take one any day over a FRS/BRZ.

You're completely missing the point on several facets of this argument.

1) I'm not entirely sure what planet would have even mildly educated consumers of the automotive market cross-shopping between a Camry and a 240SX or a BRZ/FRS or any other entry level FR-layout 2 door car, save for someone who has no idea what they're looking for in a car.

2) I would hope that, as an autocrosser/ racer/ automotive aficionado, you would consider a 370Z, a car that has a price point nearly double that of an FRS similarly equipped and for several reasons, to be a superior performance automobile.

3) In reference to point #2, I would hope you could also see how odd it would be to consider both vehicles to be "entry level performance cars".

4) All cars have flaws - especially the 240SX, while also considering it was initially designed over 20 years ago, and especially considering the fact you're benchmarking it against cars that are currently in production.

The point is, the idea of the 240SX at its inception was that it was meant to be a fun, economical solution for those looking for a fun-to-drive car that wouldn't break the budget. The same point was just made, in a world full of automotive manufacturers scrambling to meet rapidly inflating requirements with respect to fuel economy and safety standards, by Toyota and Subaru to make a *gasp* fun, economical solution for those looking for a fun-to-drive car that wouldn't break the budget. It's not meant to be more than that, but people are going to tweak them as such. And that is the beauty of automotive enthusiasm - to make more out of less for your own purposes. Some can afford more, some can't.

Nissan would be wise to follow this plan, and they aren't going to use a Macpherson strut assembly from a 1989 240SX as part of their recipe for success.

[flohtingPoint]

My camry went 240,000 miles (175K of it on the same water pump), does that mean it's a great performance car? You can do everything the 240SX did for you with my camry... Nissan already has enough boring vehicles in it's line, it does not need another one.

There were plenty of faults with it, starting first and foremost with a genuinely terrible mcstrut configuration, the front end of that car is a total mess. An SR20 wouldn't change the faults with the suspension/geometry.

The true test of a "performance" car is something that can be competitive out of the box. The 240SX was MASSIVELY far from such, it's slow, clumsy, and soft. The 370Z, however, is a very competent vehicle, and fits the needs of anyone looking for a proper entry level performance vehicle. I'd take one any day over a FRS/BRZ.

You're completely missing the point on several facets of this argument.

No, I'm not. It's all hypothetical, there are no real points, this is a discussion of "lets pretend". All I'm saying is:

-Nissan has constantly failed when creating a budget car, they are incapable of doing so. Pretty much every one of the S-series cars were just very bad... They got wise and gave up, focused on un-screwing-up the quality Z platform, which they've done very well since the worthless Z32.

-There isn't a point in a fickle market and tough economical times in trying to create a "competitor" to something that there isn't a massive market for in the first place. There arent really people lining up around the block to buy non-sports cars with no power, mcstrut front setup, that have useless backseats and no convertible options. The majority of the people in a ferver over the BRZ are fanboys that cant afford a car-loan, not exactly the target demographic for car-makers.

-Nobody needs more ricer cars from Nissan. The douchebags have been doing a great job smashing up whats left of the 240SX's, wanna give them more ammo?

[RicerX]

-Nissan has constantly failed when creating a budget car, they are incapable of doing so. Pretty much every one of the S-series cars were just very bad... They got wise and gave up, focused on un-screwing-up the quality Z platform, which they've done very well since the worthless Z32.

If by budget car you mean budget sports car... (which I assume, bc the Versa has been very successful), I wouldn't go with incapable. The Z32 was far from worthless - it went out of production due to lack of interest (which happened to share the same fate with its primary competitors in the Supra and RX-7) due to the rise of the SUV, not because it was an incapable car. The US sports car market itself crumbled in the late 90s/early 2000s because of the SUV. The 240sx did just fine sales wise up until the late 90s as well. That market also shrunk drastically, however the 240 had stronger competition in the Civic Si and the Toyota Celica, which all eventually went out of production as well.

-There isn't a point in a fickle market and tough economical times in trying to create a "competitor" to something that there isn't a massive market for in the first place. There arent really people lining up around the block to buy non-sports cars with no power, mcstrut front setup, that have useless backseats and no convertible options. The majority of the people in a ferver over the BRZ are fanboys that cant afford a car-loan, not exactly the target demographic for car-makers.

There is a point when the Subaru BRZ and the Scion FRS happen to currently be the two fastest selling cars on the US market. The average model sits at a dealership for 52 days. Right now, the average FRS/BRZ lasts four days. Even Subaru has admitted that grossly underestimated demand for this car. They have sold out in Japan and will sell out in the US for this model year.

-Nobody needs more ricer cars from Nissan. The douchebags have been doing a great job smashing up whats left of the 240SX's, wanna give them more ammo?

It sounds more like YOU don't want a "ricer" car from Nissan. And there is nothing wrong with that - that is your opinion. But you're confusing that with an argument for why it doesn't make business sense to produce a competitor. And there are plenty of car douchebags that drive plenty of other types of cars besides 240SXs.

[flohtingPoint]

-Nissan has constantly failed when creating a budget car, they are incapable of doing so. Pretty much every one of the S-series cars were just very bad... They got wise and gave up, focused on un-screwing-up the quality Z platform, which they've done very well since the worthless Z32.

If by budget car you mean budget sports car... (which I assume, bc the Versa has been very successful), I wouldn't go with incapable. The Z32 was far from worthless - it went out of production due to lack of interest (which happened to share the same fate with its primary competitors in the Supra and RX-7) due to the rise of the SUV, not because it was an incapable car. The US sports car market itself crumbled in the late 90s/early 2000s because of the SUV. The 240sx did just fine sales wise up until the late 90s as well. That market also shrunk drastically, however the 240 had stronger competition in the Civic Si and the Toyota Celica, which all eventually went out of production as well.

-There isn't a point in a fickle market and tough economical times in trying to create a "competitor" to something that there isn't a massive market for in the first place. There arent really people lining up around the block to buy non-sports cars with no power, mcstrut front setup, that have useless backseats and no convertible options. The majority of the people in a ferver over the BRZ are fanboys that cant afford a car-loan, not exactly the target demographic for car-makers.

There is a point when the Subaru BRZ and the Scion FRS happen to currently be the two fastest selling cars on the US market. The average model sits at a dealership for 52 days. Right now, the average FRS/BRZ lasts four days. Even Subaru has admitted that grossly underestimated demand for this car. They have sold out in Japan and will sell out in the US for this model year.

-Nobody needs more ricer cars from Nissan. The douchebags have been doing a great job smashing up whats left of the 240SX's, wanna give them more ammo?

It sounds more like YOU don't want a "ricer" car from Nissan. And there is nothing wrong with that - that is your opinion. But you're confusing that with an argument for why it doesn't make business sense to produce a competitor. And there are plenty of car douchebags that drive plenty of other types of cars besides 240SXs.

This is getting really tired... To quickly sum up:

-Budget performance cars, not sports cars, there aren't many "budget" sports cars in America and none currently being made.
-You dont drive, so you dont know how bad a Z32 really is.
-All cars have a shelf life
-blah blah blah
-It's not hard to move a car when you dont have any on the lot to begin with. The only people getting the car in my whole area are what little pre-orders there are. It's new and shiny right now but once the ND Miata comes out (ie: a vehicle with pedigree), it will hurt the sales.

[RicerX]

Aw floatey I'm just getting warmed up!

-Budget performance cars, not sports cars, there aren't many "budget" sports cars in America and none currently being made.

Budget performance cars... like the Mazdaspeed3, Subaru WRX? And budget sports cars meaning the Mazda Miata? Or do I have that backwards?

-You dont drive, so you dont know how bad a Z32 really is.

I do own a 370Z, but I only stare at it in my garage. So I guess you're right. I've never been in the driver's seat of a car. But indulging you might sway this off topic. Unless you actually had a point to make with that?

-All cars have a shelf life

Yes... and some longer than others. Thanks for your agreement.

-blah blah blah

manamana.

-It's not hard to move a car when you dont have any on the lot to begin with. The only people getting the car in my whole area are what little pre-orders there are. It's new and shiny right now but once the ND Miata comes out (ie: a vehicle with pedigree), it will hurt the sales.

So you're saying the two Jukes in my local Nissan dealer's lot are in the same demand as the Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ because there is only two to pick from? And the Miata is already out and is a competitor... if the new model is so highly anticipated, wouldn't these buyers be waiting for it instead of ordering the Toyobaru?

[300ZXttZMAN]

-Nissan has constantly failed when creating a budget car, they are incapable of doing so. Pretty much every one of the S-series cars were just very bad... They got wise and gave up, focused on un-screwing-up the quality Z platform, which they've done very well since the worthless Z32.

Seriously Mr. Jim?

-You dont drive, so you dont know how bad a Z32 really is.

XenonSE-R may not drive a Z32 but guess what I do so please inform me as to why you think its such a worthless car. Please! I want details. Tell me exactly what you didn't like about it.

Whats funny is that worthless cars tend to not hold their value. Correct? In 1990 one could walk into a dealership and purchase a brand new Z32TT for $30,000 now 22 years later a 1990 TTZ32 in nearly mint condition regularly sells for an upwards of 10k with less than 90k miles. Stock or lightly modded it doesn't really matter.

Mr. Jim your problem is that you love autox which is fine but you need to get it through your skull that not every car was designed to effectively compete in autox.

[Jesda]

If middle-aged women with poodles wouldn't buy it, then Carlos Ghosn doesn't care.


HEY GUYS, HOW ABOUT ANOTHER CROSSOVER?

[MinisterofDOOM]

Juke cross cabriolet GO!

[300ZXttZMAN]

Juke cross cabriolet GO!

[maniacwp]

Hi, I am new to this forum. I'm from South Africa and drive a Nissan 200Gxi Sabre (SR20DE inside).

I was wondering about this new RWD competition that will be hitting the markets. I am sure that Nissan
would want a piece of the pie, seeing how great the demand is for the BRZ & GT86. I see there are reports
of Nissan building a FWD Mini Z in the 'affordable sportscar' category; to compete with the newly launched
BRZ & GT86. Where they come to the conclusion that a FWD Nissan is in the same league as a RWD purposely
built drifting car is beyond me.

Why would Nissan just not remake the Silvia / 240??????????
It was a hit 12 years ago. Imagine the possibility with todays technology.
SR20VE or even the SR16VE N1 in a RWD car.
IT WOULD FLOOD MARKET!

So is there anyone on this forum who could maybe draft up some type of petition and send it to as many Nissan
enthusiasts as possible. Maybe that will make Nissan realise the demand for a RWD drift car is quite great.

[asoomal]

SR is too old of an engine. Doubt it'll even pass V8 emission specs.

[orangeNblue]

I think that even if we were to write any type of petition, the only real way nissan would ever release a RWD 4cyl BRZ/FR-S competitor is if those two cars do extremely well in the market.

the reason the 240sx's are so popular is they're easy to find and make incredibly fun and fast for a really low price tag. I do believe that they could remake this car and sell it fairly well, but most people of today are probably going to stick to buying the older 240's or 350z's since they're becoming cheaper and cheaper....

[Hijacker]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how people consider the S-chassis' suspension design to be poorly made...the fronts are budget minded, yes. But that's pretty standard for entry level Japanese cars. Even Mitsu used McPherson for the Evo. It's not as radically awesome as a wishbone setup, but it's not exactly the worst design ever made. Nissan did err on the side of ride comfort when the engineers were selecting bushings. The rear suspension is the exact same as a Z32 or a Skyline, so I'm kind of dumbfounded how those cars could be considered poorly designed too when that design was created to win AJGTC races. heck, the S13 replaced the R32 in AJGTC when the R32 was regulated out, and it still took podiums.

And I come from an autocross background as well. My only regret with my S13 in autocross is that a a turbo car wasn't an ideal choice for my old region's track setup. But every S-chassis I tracked in autocross were competitive in street mod, and while I wasn't the best driver, my racing partner would consistently take 1st in class with the same car. All we did for the suspension was stronger springs and T/C bushings. Power wise, we had a stock SR20 with the turbo pushing 12 psi. Not exactly a powerhouse. The last race I participated in, our S13 coupe was beaten out in class by an E-prepared car that for some reason was allowed to run in the street mod heat.

On topic, I would love to see Nissan put out something competitive against the Toyobaru. Leave the Z where it is as it has an established market share. To alter it to compete in a lower priced market would cannibalize its market share. A newly designed platform would be the best bet. Nissan should just apply the same formula from the 90s and produce an affordable platform based on the Z and Skyline platforms.

No matter what Nissan puts out, there will ALWAYS be people who will rice the crap out of the car. EVERY car has users who want to slap the latest and greatest body kits, drive like douches, and create a bad rap for the car. no matter the car, for every person who thinks competitively and sets their car up with that in mind, there are 10 others who would rather make their car look fast.