MR2 vs. 240SX (in corners, not even close)

[elbles]

Hey everyone,

After a nice brisk drive this weekend with a few people from the area, I learned how much a stock S13 sucks, heh. It was mainly a group of MR2's, and let me tell you, those cars stick much better than my bone-stock S13, heh. The most modded MR2 has ~300 rwhp and is lowered to the point of almost 0 suspension travel, whereas the least modded is a NA MR2, with nothing but wheels and wider tires. They said they were going around 7-8/10ths, and they were sticking without problems; when I tried the corners at the same speeds, I was pretty damn tailhappy, haha . . . the 240 is very easy to control once it slides, obviously, but it just isn't as fun as the MR2s were, and certainly isn't as quick. So how do I remedy this? Obviously a lowering of the car, as well as some stiffer shocks/struts/etc will help, and maybe some wider tires too, but of any of you that have both a MR2 and a 240, can you comment on how much worse the 240 is, and what can be done to try and get it running against the MR2 at a competitive pace? I'm certainly no sort of great driver, and these guys have autocrossed quite a few times, but my car was certainly a limiting factor, and I'd love to be able to fix it. Looking forward to see comments on this one, heh . . .

[MainEvent212]

Sircnay is a 240=>MR2 convert, he can tell you alot i'm sure

but lemme just chime in my own advice. The MR2 is very planted due to all of its weight being in the rear. but when it breaks loose, so does the rest of hell. It is the epitome of snap oversteer. My advice to you if you want to handle like those heavily modded MR2s is this...

*Coilover kit (SPL makes nice ones for affordable prices, the popular cheap set is D2 or K-sport which are the same brand one JDM one USDM)*tension rods, RUCA (rear camber control arm)*Strut Braces front and rear *Sway bars (cusco, whiteline off the top of my head)*Subframe bushings/spacers *Wider Wheels (i suggest 17x8 all around to keep handling more neutral, stagger is pointless on a near stock 240sx) 5zigen is popular because it's cheaper then most, good sizes and offsets, many other wheel guys can help you further then me, cuz i have S14 anyways so offsets are different.*Tires, i suggest 225/45/17 all around in some good sticky tire, Falken Azenis Sport is the rubber of choice from what i hear, i like my Kumho MX personally

[elbles]

Yeah, I've seen Sircnay over on MR2oc.com, so I'm hoping he'll pop back over here soon, and give me some advice. Though it's probably going to be sell the 240 and get a Mk1 SC MR2, which is sounding more and more appealing everyday. ;-)

And yes, I'm aware of the tendancy of the MR2 to snap oversteer, but I just want my car to be able to match it. And for the cost of everything to get my car to that point, I'm thinking of buying a Mk1 SC MR2, and using that as my track car, and the 240 as the daily; the best of both worlds, at the same cost, heh. Thanks for the advice man, I appreciate it!

Oh, and FWIW, I'm running 205/60R15 Yoko AVS ES100's. Fairly sticky, but obviously relatively narrow, and the profile is a bit high for my liking. Next time, I might increase the pressure a bit, I was only running 32 PSI or so, and for the kind of driving I was doing, 38-40 might have suited me quite a bit better.

[BadMojo]

Nothing MR2 related per se, but if you've got stock shocks and bushings on your car, chances are they're pretty tired. The rubbery goo-filled bushings on the 240SX could probably stand to be replaced with something a bit stiffer.

[elbles]

Very true too . . . time is a serious constraint there right now, with school and everything, but it'll have to get done sometime, daily or not.

[ILikeMy240sx]

start with spl-parts.com they have a HUGE selection of good priced suspension goods... Start from top and go down the list as money permist i guess...

[The Mic]

are you comparing your stock 240sx to a modified MR2?

[SeVa-S13]

Yes he is... And of course the MR-2's are gunna be able to carry more speed into a corner, that's what they're designed and built for.

Simple springs/struts and GOOD TIRES will do wonders for handling. Spend less money on your phat system and more on your suspension if your goal is to handle and not annoy people with your bass.

[BuudWeizErr]

i drove an MR2. hated it.

240's are so much better than MR2's. they suck.

[kamikazestorm420]

bring me a mr2 .. ill rape that in the turns

[MainEvent212]

yeah i love the 240sx because it's so neutral feeling. after trying to drift a G35, i realized how smooth the 240 oversteers. i hate snap oversteer, it makes me feel inadequate

[elbles]

SeVa-S13: Lose the attitude. Yes, some of the MR2s were modded, but one was a NA model, with nothing but wheels and tires done; I was expecting to at least be able to keep up with it, but I couldn't. As for my "phat" system, I have gone for sound quality on a limited budget; I certainly don't annoy anyone with my bass, but if you had any intelligence whatsoever, you might realize that it's hard to get decent SQ/low-end sound from 4x6 speakers, which was all I could afford at the time. A lot of the system was also a gift from my parents, and as the car is a daily right now, making it more comfortable has had precedent over making it handle better. So chill out . . . I'm no ricer, and I was just out to have some fun, and keep up if I could; I couldn't, so I came here for advice. It used to be a good idea to ask for recommendations here, but not with the likes of you, apparently. Oh, and FWIW, I have somewhat decent tires in the Yoko AVS ES100's, but they're narrow, like I described above, if you had cared to read something, as opposed to just flaming me.

The main advantages the MR2's should have had, particularly the NA one, was being able to brake later into a corner (acheiving closer to a 50/50 dynamic weight distribution in the process), and accelerate sooner after the corner; it wasn't in this aspect where I saw a huge disparity, it was just the speeds they were staying at through the corners; I was amazed at how much quicker they were. I'll admit I've never autocrossed before or anything, but even with braking well before the corner, and only staying on the throttle to the point just before breaking loose, I was quite a bit behind. Maybe you guys would have expected this, I sure didn't, I was very much optimistic about keeping up with the NA MR2. Oh well . . . the 240 is very neutral feeling at the limit, whereas the MR2's are obviously not, but in terms of overall "stickiness", the MR2 has a nice lead, whether it was due to the nice wide tires the NA had, or the drivers (who had all autocrossed), or who knows what else. I was just looking for suggestions, that's all . . .

[MainEvent212]

you have to understand, the MR2 is built to perform, look at it, 2 seats, rear engine, no storage anything. This is a sports car...the S13 hatch can fit a full sized tool box in the trunk, a wife and 2 kids in the back, and still be decently comfortable (unless you're a mammoth like some of us).

i suspect driver skill came into play herei also suspect you expected too much out of your stock commuter car in comparison to a stock sports car.

[KDashy]

The MR2 is a different class of car though it'd reqire a lot of money on the footwork, but hey at least you can say you dont get raped on car insurance lol.

[Graphfixz]

spl-parts.com doesn't seem to work.

[SeVa-S13]

Well atleast you mounted a coherent defense, seems a bit too rare these days. And despite "my attitude" and the fact that I have "no intelligence whatsoever," I offered sound advice that also stays within a budget, as I figured you were looking at your mods. (I failed to read all of your second post cuz you were just talking about MR2 boards and I didn't care so I missed the tire mentioning.)

Want less attitude? Don't ask why a mid-engined, purpose-built car that weighs considerably less than you goes faster through a turn.Wanna keep up? KYB AGX struts and Tein S-Tech springs are relatively cheap and should help out immensely. Toss in some budget stut tower bars and replace some bushings and you'll be amazed at the handling improvement.
Modified by SeVa-S13 at 5:00 PM 11/1/2004

[GEO]

^^ ditto to that.

[MainEvent212]

for prices that ksport is going for now, i'd jsut as soon get in on a Ksport group buy

[ILikeMy240sx]

spl-parts.com doesn't seem to work.

so sorry... http://www.splparts.com/ is the correct link.

[elbles]

Yeah, I'm Irish, your post got my infamous temper going, what can I say. Maybe I was naive to expect my 240 to keep up, but there really isn't much of a discrepancy in the specifications of the cars (meaning my 240 and the NA MR2), other than the whole location of the engine, and the 240's suspension is quite a bit more sophisticated than the MR2's, so I thought it might stand a chance. What really got at me was the perception of me as a ricer; that, I am not. It's a daily driver, so I can't really mod it to the point at which it would be uncomfortable (it has to take me 600 miles every time I leave school to go home), so it's a bit of a dilemma, plus with the cost of modding it, getting a first generation MR2 is looking to be more and more of an appealing option, not to mention pretty damn cheap anymore. And being a college student, money is ALWAYS a concern, heh. But, in short, time will tell what will happen to my 240, whether it's destined to live as a daily driver, or whether it will start to see upgrades as components start to fail (god knows my brakes are probably in need of it from the drive, if there's one thing that really sucks about a stock S13, it's definitely the brakes over anything else).

[MainEvent212]

what would you do if you bought an MR2 also theN? you'd have 2 stock cars...why not just modify your 240 instead? having a modified car on the road isnt as big of a deal as you'd think

[elbles]

From what I saw of the mostly stock NA MR2 (a second generation model), a stock first generation model should be able to surpass even that . . . and being as cheap as they are, why not? No need to mod it, and they're pretty damn reliable . . . and that leaves the 240 as comfortable and as fun as a daily driver can be . . . not that I'm definitely going to do that, but it's a more and more appealing option everyday.

[KDashy]

Ah I dunno, something about the first gen MR2 that doesnt seem right, as if they didnt do that car correctly.

Is there any truth to the overheating issues due to the corolla chassis used in the first gen MR2's?

[SeVa-S13]

That's the position I'm in right now. I have an RB S13 and it's not exactly ideal for daily driving just yet, and I'm not sure it ever will be so I'm looking at buying a couple MKI MR2's (one has some damage and auto, but runs fine, and the other is manual but the engine could use some work) for $600 and/or a 95 Kawasaki Ninja 250 for $700 with new tires and great condition and use those for a daily beaters and build up the 240 to whip some elitist local islander a**.

[elbles]

Yeah, my 240 is a great daily driver at this point; engine has 16,000 miles on it since I bought a rebuild, and it's great on long trips, gets around 28 MPG doing ~77 MPH on average on the highway, has a decent stereo to make the 600 mile trips much easier, but if were to start modding it, that could all go to hell, and with Dueces as cheap as they are, it's not a bad option for me.

As far as their overheating issues are concerned, I don't really recall any KDashy, definitely something I'll have to look into on MR2oc.com if/when I get serious about getting one . . . and they're supposedly the best handling MR2. :-)

[CybeRise]

You can get tien springs for cheap on ebay. But ya like the some of the people said, MR-2 is built for cornering, however with some suspension mods and some engine mods you should be able to atleast keep up if your not that skilled a driver.

[CybeRise]

Oh and http://search.ebay.com/240sx-s...omZR8

http://search.ebay.com/240sx-s...earch

http://search.ebay.com/240sx-c...earch

http://search.ebay.com/240sx-S...earch

http://search.ebay.com/240sx-s...earch

http://search.ebay.com/240sx-H...earch

http://search.ebay.com/240sx-c...earch

http://search.ebay.com/240sx-g...earch

These are illegal but does make it way faster, oh and u will be able to smell it lolhttp://search.ebay.com/240sx-h...earch

and some http://search.ebay.com/240sx-s...earch

Obviously you cant buy all this at once, but if you buy one every time you get paid in no time you will be able to beat that mr2, tho i can beat him in a stock beater :p hehe jk

[Nismo_Freak]

Wanna absolutely destroy an MR2?

Get a 914, convert to 914-6 and drop about 4k in the suspension and tires.

If you get beat by any MR2, you need driving instruction.

[SeVa-S13]

As far as MR-2 problems go, it's the 2nd gens that had mistakes. Toyota kept trying to revamp the suspension throughout the car's run because of just ill-handling defects.

MKII's are for trying to impress ricers, MKI's are for racing.

[elbles]

CybeRise: Thanks for the list man, heh . . . budget parts are great, heh. :-)

NismoFreak: Funny enough you mention a 914, my dad had one, still thinks it was the best handling car he's ever had . . . awful shifter though. I have his old set of keys to that car, as well as the key to his 1970 240Z that he bought new, in case I ever run across either. ;-)

SeVa-S13: Hehe, yeah, they made the suspension/brake "upgrades" in 93; the brake upgrades are unquestionable, but the suspension "upgrades" were done because of the nasty snappy oversteer in the 91's and 92's; some prefer the older suspension, as they can push them a little harder, but the newer suspension is much more progressive, even though that's not saying much. Regardless, in the MR2 community, it is unquestioned that the MK2 is the worst handling MR2, with a bit of a debate as to whether the MK1 or MK3 is the best; seeing what the MK2's were like, either of the others would have be DUI'ing (drooling under the influence), heh. Then again, a guy had his 1995 MR2 Turbo there . . . one of around 70 in the entire US; we were all around that car like a bunch of pre-pubescent boys around a Victoria's Secret catalog. :-)