McCain opposes a woman's right to choose.

[wingFeather]

^ So if she aborts the fetus, then the rape charge gets upped to Murder 1. Simple.

Scumbag out of the gene pool, left-wingers get to sound off about whether they care more for the life of an unborn child or of a f*cking rapist.

/troll

That is actually an interesting idea. To make the rapist responsible for the lack of care for creating a human life! But then again, the law could be abused with false rape accusations. And it is no better to kill a "questionably" alive "fetus", than a fully grown one who make a bad decision.

If people were simply moral, "grey areas" like this wouldn't exist Is the rapture coming soon?

BTW if you are a rock fan, AC/DC is getting their own channel on Sirius XM starting next week (CH 29)

I cannot pay for radio. It goes against my common sense I removed the Sirius tuner from my M35 & sold it on eBay to pay some bills...

[HashiriyaS14]

That's one big issue I have with the whole "life" argument when it comes to abortion. Your example for instance... cells are either alive or dead. If they are dead, there's no growth, nothing... they're dead. Living cells, regardless of thinking or feeling, are alive as they are separating, growing, etc... there's simply life when there are living cells.

life–noun1. the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.2. the sum of the distinguishing phenomena of organisms, esp. metabolism, growth, reproduction, and adaptation to environment.

I would even consider sperm to be alive. They do have metabolism and even respond to stimuli and can survive between 48 and 72 hours before they're actually dead, if I remember correctly, which is longer than even some bugs last.

Anyway... in my opinion, when it comes to the question of when "life begins" I believe it never really has a starting place to begin with since the cells are already alive (i.e. sperm are already living) so the be the whole when life begins thing is definitely not the right question to be asking. That's just me though.

I see where you're coming from, technically a single red blood cell is "life", but not really in the eyes of the law.

It matters when it becomes a SEPARATE life that is aware of itself. Obviously we can't send people to prison for "killing sperm".

If you don't propose settling the abortion debate by determining when life begins, then what do you propose? It seems to me to be the only objective way of doing it.

[telcoman]

But she agreed to participate in sexual intercourse. If she didn't want a child, she should not have done this..

Are you saying that everyone in a sexual relationship is looking foward to a child?

.

When I participate in intercourse, I am fully aware that the woman may get pregnant. This is a risk I take (even with contraceptive).

Try one of her other inputs instead

[wingFeather]

Are you saying that everyone in a sexual relationship is looking foward to a child?

They may not be "looking forward to it", but they are participating in an act with certain outcomes. The outcome may not be a 1:1 ratio, but ignoring that gamble is ignorance.

It would be like a driver who races on public streets. He knows that it is illegal & dangerous, but he does it anyway because it is enjoyable. When he gets caught, he has no option to "abort" the ticket or jail time. He may not have "looked forward" to punishment, but he decided to take the risk!!! Now he has to MAN UP & pay the price.

Try one of her other inputs instead

Yes, please Some of these girlies are better skilled orally (when they're not busy chatting away)

[telcoman]

But she agreed to participate in sexual intercourse. If she didn't want a child, she should not have done this.

When I participate in intercourse, I am fully aware that the woman may get pregnant. This is a risk I take (even with contraceptive).

Non-consentual sex is a different story, as he/she didn't consent to take the risk... but it's still murder of a human. Sad but true.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I got a gift certificate from my wife. The certificate paid for a visit to ashaman living on a nearby reservation who was rumored to have a wonderfulcure for erectile dysfunction.After being persuaded, I drove to the reservation, handed my ticket to theshaman, and wondered what I was in for. The old man slowly, methodicallyproduced a potion, handed it to me, and with a grip on my shoulder, warned,'This is powerful medicine and it must be respected. You take only ateaspoonful and then say '1-2-3.' When you do that, you will be more manlythan you have ever been in your life, and you will be able to perform as longas you want.'I was encouraged. As he walked away, I turned and asked, 'How do I stop themedicine from working?''Your partner must say '1-2-3-4,' the shaman responded. 'But when she does,the medicine will not work again until the next full moon. 'I was eager to see if it worked. I went home, showered, shaved, took aspoonful of the medicine, and then invited my wife to join me in the bedroom.When she came in, I took off my clothes and said, '1-2-3!' Immediately, Iwas the manliest of men.She was excited and began throwing off her clothes.And then she asked, 'What was the 1-2-3 for?'And that, boys and girls, is why we should never end our sentences with apreposition.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

[Encryptshun]

telco, you finally posted something that reaches across the aisle.

[wingFeather]

And then she asked, 'What was the 1-2-3 for?'

I nominate this post for a sticky

[96Qowner]

I am certainly willing to admit that even at my age I don't know everything and have learned things here from others such as yourself & Greg.I also have a slight disadvantage from many others in that I did not grow up with a computer. It took me 6 months just to figure out how to use photobucket. Some have commented that I still have not grown up but what would you expect of a huge Howard Stern fan that listens every day for hours. Farts and fart jokes in 5th grade were funny and I think some of them are still funny.

Thanks a ton for posting that, telco - it really warms me up to you - makes you a person, not just a poster.

Here are a few of my thoughts on abortion, Roe v Wade, etc.

I agree with Marenta - nobody is going to overturn Roe v Wade. Even Roberts says it's been on the books too long to consider overturning. Even if it was it would still allow States to decide for themselves and very few would ban abortion. A non-issue, meant for wedge politics.

I am a loyal Republican who is pro-choice. I am not rare. Anyone who thinks even most Republicans are pro-life needs to do some more research. It's simply a wedge issue.

I don't particularly care where people think "life" begins. I'm more concerned with the actual adult human being who is a citizen and a current member of our society, namely the woman. I can't expect her rights to her own body to be suborned in favor of a fetus - as simple as that.

Now ... once that fetus becomes viable outside her womb, we have an issue. She has no right to kill it - it's capable of being a separate independent entity and has its own rights. Currently, that occurs sometime in the mid to late 2nd trimester - about 4-5 months old. For that reason, I can accept laws against 3rd trimester abortions.

[Marenta]

Woah there. I don't know where you have been getting your statistics, but I think you are missing some caveats or some demographic data bracketing that statement.

I do NOT agree AT ALL. As, I bet, would EVERY SINGLE FATHER ON THIS FORUM.

No no no.. don't misread me. Or, perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

The women that are seeking abortions are usually the ones that slept with somebody unscrupulous and therefore would want nothing to do with the child. I have yet to run into somebody from this forum who is an uncaring lout and who would refuse to take care of their own children. I'm not saying that the man taking care of the child doesn't exist, but I'm saying that a majority of the men that have women that get abortions are not father material and aren't seeking to keep the child around.

By the way, it was not a fact that I pulled up or gathered some random info from some website. No, this is from my own observations of the humans around me, merely that.

[Jesda]

I very much oppose a woman's right to kill her fetus. I think its sick and disgusting that so many women can have abortions just because they aren't "ready".

I oppose using government power to force my agenda on others.

[wingFeather]

The women that are seeking abortions are usually the ones that slept with somebody unscrupulous and therefore would want nothing to do with the child.

I agree with this statement. It covers the majority of irresponsible abortion frequent shoppers.

I am also glad to see a female online. Too many of my daily Web sites are 100% male.

[Encryptshun]

The women that are seeking abortions are usually the ones that slept with somebody unscrupulous and therefore would want nothing to do with the child.

This is still a pretty bold statement to toss out there without any facts to back it up.

AGI has done abortion studies since 1984 and their compositie statistics show that only 14% average of abortions are for reasons relating to the father or the fact that the intercourse was not consensual. Almost 60% are "personal choice" or "not ready to be a mother".

http://www.johnstonsarchive.ne....html

[Marenta]

Yes, meaning that "Not ready to be a mother" and "Personal Choice" being that they're sleazy and they've slept around with too many guys, or whatever the case may be.

I'm not generalizing or stereotyping. Because, I know there are some awesome guys out there that raise the kids and are a pimp at doing it. More power to them. But, there is no way you can tell me that a 16 year old boy is going to want a child in the slightest after he knocked up his 16 year old girlfriend. Perhaps the family might, but not the boy personally.

[Encryptshun]

Okay, I'm letting this one go -- we aren't going anywhere constructive with it. Call it a draw, miscommunication, whatever.

we cool?

[wingFeather]

Almost 60% are "personal choice" or "not ready to be a mother".

Thank you for offering up this data instead of trashing her post.

These numbers align with what I observe in society. It saddens my soul that we've declined to this level as humans. Just yesterday I read an article about a woman who stuck her baby in the microwave and cooked it... in response to argument with her boyfriend ( http://ap.google.com/article/A...PJVO0 )

[96Qowner]

A bullet and a brick wall would work good for that woman.

[Encryptshun]

I'm just gonna throw this one out there...

You need a license to drive a car.You need a permit to own a gun.You have to register to vote.You need UNTOLD amounts of resources to adopt a child.

You need nothing but a working set of sex organs to have a baby.

And, for the sake of argument, which would have been preferable for the child who got burned to death by its mother in the microwave: to die that way or to have been aborted in the womb? No, I know none of us could answer that, but it's the type of situation that is at the very crux of the abortion debate -- life versus "quality life".

[wingFeather]

You need nothing but a working set of sex organs to have a baby.

I thought about this in the past... but letting the government control who reproduces isn't the answer either

I wouldn't want Obama or McCain interviewing me to decide if I was worthy of this long standing American freedom.

Perhaps some sort of basic skills test? But even that could be morphed over time into a tool for the Black Panther or Nazi types...

[Encryptshun]

letting the government control who reproduces isn't the answer either

This is where I get to show my "true colors" as a raving fascist:

1) I do believe that reproduction should be a priveledge and not a right

2) I support welfare, but I also support mandatory (reversible) sterilization of any male AND female currently collecting public assistance, until such time as they can get off assistance for a period of no less than one year.

3) I support educational "tracking" wherein students are grouped according to learning potential and not forced to share class time with waterheads and kids with behavioral disorders.

4) I think that it costs less to raise and educate a child for 18 years than it does to incarcerate a criminal for 30.

[wingFeather]

This is where I get to show my "true colors" as a raving fascist:

1) I do believe that reproduction should be a priveledge and not a right

2) I support welfare, but I also support mandatory (reversible) sterilization of any male AND female currently collecting public assistance, until such time as they can get off assistance for a period of no less than one year.

3) I support educational "tracking" wherein students are grouped according to learning potential and not forced to share class time with waterheads and kids with behavioral disorders.

4) I think that it costs less to raise and educate a child for 18 years than it does to incarcerate a criminal for 30.

I cannot argue with these statements, on a certain level.

Bravo for bringing up #3!!!!! I feel we should have #3 in place, much like other countries. Even China weeds out the cream of the crop. The slower kids get put in different programs. Those who will never reach college don't drag down the smart ones. I just spoke with a German girl who mentioned the amount of testing they have to do to qualify for advancement. Funny how I never hear this from Democrats who are usually quick to compare us to "how advanced Europe is"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But #1 would only work if we could get honest, moral people making those decisions. I fear that would never happen, or mutate into a control nightmare Ugh. Frustation.

[Marenta]

Okay, I'm letting this one go -- we aren't going anywhere constructive with it. Call it a draw, miscommunication, whatever.

we cool?

Fair 'nuff.

[Encryptshun]

WingFeather and I are agreeing a lot lately.

[AZhitman]

you just want me banned because I have a different opinion than you.

OK, gelo3432.

....or should I say, Hancock3457?

[Encryptshun]

Nico has a link to "Obituary Archive" at the bottom of this thread. I think Google is trying to tell us that it's time to stop beating this one, unless we have more useful insights in terms of what McCain is opposing and how it might affect us if he's elected.

[The Wicker Man]

OK, gelo3432.

....or should I say, Hancock3457?

gelo3432?

I tried to register Hancock but I screwed up the email part. Sorry?

[telcoman]

Thanks a ton for posting that, telco - it really warms me up to you - makes you a person, not just a poster.

Hey, I'm from New Jersey

Here are a few of my thoughts on abortion, Roe v Wade, etc.

I agree with Marenta - nobody is going to overturn Roe v Wade. Even Roberts says it's been on the books too long to consider overturning. Even if it was it would still allow States to decide for themselves and very few would ban abortion. A non-issue, meant for wedge politics.

I am a loyal Republican who is pro-choice. I am not rare. Anyone who thinks even most Republicans are pro-life needs to do some more research. It's simply a wedge issue.

I don't particularly care where people think "life" begins. I'm more concerned with the actual adult human being who is a citizen and a current member of our society, namely the woman. I can't expect her rights to her own body to be suborned in favor of a fetus - as simple as that.

Now ... once that fetus becomes viable outside her womb, we have an issue. She has no right to kill it - it's capable of being a separate independent entity and has its own rights. Currently, that occurs sometime in the mid to late 2nd trimester - about 4-5 months old. For that reason, I can accept laws against 3rd trimester abortions.

+1 You seem rare to me?

I only wish more Republicans thought like you?

I think I previously mentioned I was a Goldwater supporter in 64 but switched after all the gov't BS and lies over Vietnam

[Encryptshun]

Jesus, telco, I guess I never looked at your profile before. 66, huh? Wow.

This must be like talking to Kindergarteners for you...

[The Wicker Man]

I oppose a lot of things that I have the power to change... but I don't, because I respect the will of the people it would affect.

I'm still puzzled by this statement. I don't think you have the power to change anything. Unless you mean by voting, but everyone has that power.

[mtcookson]

I see where you're coming from, technically a single red blood cell is "life", but not really in the eyes of the law.

It matters when it becomes a SEPARATE life that is aware of itself. Obviously we can't send people to prison for "killing sperm".

Since the act requires millions of sperm and they're already dieing all of the time I would of course agree with that, but when the sperm enters the egg I would definitely consider that a bit different and, in my opinion, that would be where "life starts". I don't have a problem with birth control blocking or killing the sperm and/or eggs but killing the baby just seems completely wrong to me.

Quote »If you don't propose settling the abortion debate by determining when life begins, then what do you propose? It seems to me to be the only objective way of doing it.[/quote]If it were up to me... I'd end up getting lynched for taking away women's "right" to "choose".

I can't expect her rights to her own body to be suborned in favor of a fetus - as simple as that.

Curious... what are your thoughts on assisted suicide? If a woman is to be given such a right as to be allowed to kill a separate life (especially in the cases where they simply "aren't ready")... why then shouldn't a person be allowed to have an assisted suicide? Its their body, shouldn't they have the right? Apparently the law doesn't think so. I believe 44 out of 57... oops, I mean 50 states, criminalize it. (now there's a good comparison for allowing the states to decide and not the federal government). Anyway... seems to me an assisted suicide is a tiny bit better than an assisted murder considering they're doing it to themselves and not a separate life.

[96Qowner]

Curious... what are your thoughts on assisted suicide? If a woman is to be given such a right as to be allowed to kill a separate life (especially in the cases where they simply "aren't ready")... why then shouldn't a person be allowed to have an assisted suicide? Its their body, shouldn't they have the right? Apparently the law doesn't think so. I believe 44 out of 57... oops, I mean 50 states, criminalize it. (now there's a good comparison for allowing the states to decide and not the federal government). Anyway... seems to me an assisted suicide is a tiny bit better than an assisted murder considering they're doing it to themselves and not a separate life.

I'm in favor of assisted suicide, too. I frankly don't know how Republicans feel about it. I never really understood the problem, from the time I was just a kid. How can you not have the right to kill yourself? Suicide itself is actually illegal in a lot of places. Illegal? Huh? Yeah, good luck with the prosecution on that.

The one good argument I've heard against it, specifically for the elderly, is that it would put pressure on those who choose NOT to kill themselves. It would make them look selfish and wasteful of valuable resources that could be used to keep a healthy young person alive.

Dunno.