Lesbian gets $35K settlement over canceled prom

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PoorManQ45
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IBCoupe wrote:
PoorManQ45 wrote:I never understood why a private organization can't deny service to a specific group of people.
Because Congress said so in 1964. Through interpretation of the interstate commerce clause (broadly interpreted after 1937), under the theory that one place of public accommodation's discriminatory policy could have a negative effect on interstate commerce by dissuading people from traveling from one state to a discriminatory state (and thus hurt everyone, including the non-discriminatory businesses, in that discriminatory State), Congress said that places of public accommodation cannot discriminate against certain protected classes. Same law that said you can't discriminate against certain protected classes in your hiring policies.
I guess I am not understanding the connection between a private business and "public accommodation".

Most businesses post signs saying "we reserve the right to refuse service". Is that not allowed?


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Jesda
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PoorManQ45 wrote:
I guess I am not understanding the connection between a private business and "public accommodation".

Most businesses post signs saying "we reserve the right to refuse service". Is that not allowed?
The law specifies specific reasons why a licensed business operating with the general public cannot refuse service.

There are first amendment (right to free association) exceptions for private clubs like whites-only country clubs and such.

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nissangirl74
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Jesda wrote:The law specifies specific reasons why a licensed business operating with the general public cannot refuse service.

There are first amendment (right to free association) exceptions for private clubs like whites-only country clubs and such.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think club can be exclusive if you have to pay to be a member.

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Jesda
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nissangirl74 wrote:I think club can be exclusive if you have to pay to be a member.
Yep

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nissangirl74
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Anyone else thinking 'if this happened anywhere North of the Mason-Dixon line or West of the Mississippi River, there wouldn't have been a story to tell?"

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Razi
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Jesda wrote: Image
:rotfl

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IBCoupe
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Jesda wrote:
IBCoupe wrote:I'm not seeing how the Constitution was abused, even if this had been a court ruling.
Because we're talking about the freedom of express part of the first amendment, which was only very slightly barely loosely related to the case. All this effectively does is set a legal precedent for dress code restrictions at school events.

You don't write laws from the bench.
How is showing up to prom with a particular person not expression?

This isn't an association issue; the school isn't preventing them from being a couple, or even from being together at the prom. My read of the situation (and please correct me, if I'm wrong) is that the school was trying to prevent them from showing up together at the prom.

That's very clearly expression.

Edit: So a couple of things to add. First, the tuxedo issue was firmly in the realm of expression, and second, I think the fact that the school's statement to the girls that they could be kicked out of the prom if people complained about their being together there, while I was mistaken about "even from being together at the prom," makes it more clearly an issue of expression. It's not a matter of their being gay, it's a matter of their actions being, if nothing else, interpreted as expression.
Last edited by IBCoupe on Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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IBCoupe
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nissangirl74 wrote:Anyone else thinking 'if this happened anywhere North of the Mason-Dixon line or West of the Mississippi River, there wouldn't have been a story to tell?"
My prom was in 2003 in Massachusetts. There wasn't a story to tell when it happened there (the lesbian thing, not the prom-cancellation-on-account-of-lesbians thing).

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MellowZ32
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I love hot lesbians!

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IBCoupe
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MellowS13 wrote:I love hot lesbians!
I've seen pictures of only one of them. This might not be the story you want it to be.

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MellowZ32
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yeah I saw the troll.
but I was talking about HOT lesbians like these two
http://fannity.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... ians-1.jpg

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Jesda
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IBCoupe wrote: How is showing up to prom with a particular person not expression?
A person's presence is typically not an expression. A person wearing a tuxedo is. The fact that we're arguing over this nonsense is proof that the judge stretched the use of the first amendment like a piece of Bubble Yum over a timpani to suit his whims.

The first amendment is intended to protect people from being censored by government but it does not guarantee a government-sponsored venue for expression. One has the right to purchase a hosting service and publish a blog -- the first amendment prevents government from shutting down the blog. One is NOT entitled to a government-sponsored web hosting service for private citizens to share user-created content.

Likewise, the second amendment protects the individual right to bear arms. It does NOT guarantee that the government will provide shooting ranges and weapons for public use. A person is, however, free to purchase firearms of their own.

In the case of a public school -- note that almost all public schools are funded by the federal government between 5% and 10% of total funding -- the government is providing an activity venue. It has the right, typically, to enforce general codes of conduct on its premises for various sporting and social activities, including attire.

I'm aware of the Tinker case -- we covered it in Comm Law a couple years ago. Speech at school is a tricky subject full of exceptions, but a girl wearing a tux is not the same as political speech. Its merely a disruption of a formal event. The girls could still attend prom in dresses of their choosing (though, the problem of event cancelation and exclusion likely would remain a valid issue).

This school explicitly adopted a rule that voided its freedom to exclude students from activities based on sexual orientation. The requirement of a dress for female participants is NOT an act of unfair discrimination based on sexual orientation, as being a lesbian is NOT the equivalent of being male.


This is the case of a public school failing to uphold its own written anti-discrimination/anti-exclusion/anti-harassment policy, enough to warrant a suit. All the US district court did was declare dress codes for formal events at school unconstitutional. Its a crock of logically damaged feel-good bull that doesn't address the core issue at all. There's no question that the suit was valid and the settlement was fair, but the judge's opinion is wrong.


It is unlikely that we will ever see a uniform set of clear standards for free speech in public schools.

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IBCoupe
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Jesda wrote:A person's presence is typically not an expression.
We're not talking about mere presence - this was discrimination not only on the tuxedo, but also on the manner in which the two girls attended the prom (namely: together). That choice on how to attend prom is easily seen as non-verbal expression.

No one is arguing that the girls should be given a venue through which to express themselves, just that they shouldn't be discriminated against on the basis of that expression. That's what the school did.

And the district court did not establish that dress codes are unconstitutional. It said that bans on gender-nonconforming attire are unconstitutional. Even if you disagree with that ruling, being that it's a trial-level court, it's not particularly binding, and so it's not really something to worry about.

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PoorManQ45
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IBCoupe wrote: And the district court did not establish that dress codes are unconstitutional. It said that bans on gender-nonconforming attire are unconstitutional. Even if you disagree with that ruling, being that it's a trial-level court, it's not particularly binding, and so it's not really something to worry about.
For some reason I could see this going bad.

Next thing you know we are going to have cross-dressers in school...

I wonder how this would apply to public schools that have formal dress codes requiring the girls to wear skirts or slacks.

*edit* High school is not the place nor the time for expressing one's self. It is a time for children to acquire a knowledge base that will be with them for the rest of their lives.

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Razi
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Sometimes, I picture PMQ as a cat that learned to use a keyboard and tries his hardest to post intelligent responses to the questions posted on the Internet.

Unless it causes problems, let the tards wear whatever they please.

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PoorManQ45
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Razi wrote: Unless it causes problems, let the tards wear whatever they please.
Who is allowed to deem the attire "a problem" though?

The lesbian couple obviously made an impact on the other children. That would be considered a disturbance.

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IBCoupe
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PoorManQ45 wrote:For some reason I could see this going bad.

Next thing you know we are going to have cross-dressers in school...
I'm not seeing what's bad. Clothes are clothes.
PoorManQ45 wrote:I wonder how this would apply to public schools that have formal dress codes requiring the girls to wear skirts or slacks.

*edit* High school is not the place nor the time for expressing one's self. It is a time for children to acquire a knowledge base that will be with them for the rest of their lives.
There's an argument that creativity is hindered when expression is limited, and that we want our children to be able to compete. As we rush away from creativity-based classes and towards a more strict, memorization-based learning style, China is rushing away from their even stricter memorization-based learning style, and towards what we're running away from. Not sure that either one of us is right, but it's something to chew on.

And while high school may not be the proper avenue for expression, I'm not sure that high school is the proper place to regulate it, either. The question I always ask, "Who's actually harmed?" If the answer is, "Actually no one," then my policy is to ignore it. Cross-dressing harms no one. Homosexuality harms no one. What's the problem?

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Razi
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PoorManQ45 wrote: Who is allowed to deem the attire "a problem" though?
That'd be the job of the proper authorities.

If it's offensive and/or disgusting (Like Tito wearing Stace's skirt), then I'd say that's
PoorManQ45 wrote:considered a disturbance.
and tell the kid to change his clothes.

Basically, don't be causing a fuss and you can do as you please.

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PoorManQ45
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IBCoupe wrote: And while high school may not be the proper avenue for expression, I'm not sure that high school is the proper place to regulate it, either. The question I always ask, "Who's actually harmed?" If the answer is, "Actually no one," then my policy is to ignore it. Cross-dressing harms no one. Homosexuality harms no one. What's the problem?
If there were a cross dressing individual in school this would create a disturbance for the other students. This would/could deprive others of the their ability to focus on the material being taught to them.

When a student isn't paying attention to the teacher they are typically(not always) learning the material that's being taught.

Unfortunately radical clothing(that which is far outside "the norm") is indeed a distraction.

You wouldn't want someone wearing a t-shirt that says "I <3 Osama" or "Death to Americans" in school would you? These phrases are both expressions allowed under the first amendment, but they are indeed extremely disruptive.

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That's absolutely ridiculous ^. My actions were usually a distraction to other students, yet they didn't ban me. You can't control everything. If you just let it be, I bet soon enough the kids would just ignore it. "Hey, he's wearing an offensive shirt. Ok, back to that history lesson". The more we make this stuff rare, the more attention it gets.

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Razi
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Maybe it's just me, but a dude in a skirt or a guy wearing a wild shirt never held my attention for over a minute or two, and sure as hell never distracted me for the entire 1-2 class lecture. :gotme

My random trains of thought distracted me more than the fat guy in a tie-dye shirt with a Naruto headband, practicing some weird hand movements.

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Razi wrote: fat guy
Speaking of fat people, they are disgusting and distracting and should be banned. From life.

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PoorManQ45
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AppleBonker wrote:That's absolutely ridiculous ^. My actions were usually a distraction to other students, yet they didn't ban me. You can't control everything. If you just let it be, I bet soon enough the kids would just ignore it. "Hey, he's wearing an offensive shirt. Ok, back to that history lesson". The more we make this stuff rare, the more attention it gets.
At what point do you draw the line?

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Razi
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PoorManQ45 wrote:
AppleBonker wrote:That's absolutely ridiculous ^. My actions were usually a distraction to other students, yet they didn't ban me. You can't control everything. If you just let it be, I bet soon enough the kids would just ignore it. "Hey, he's wearing an offensive shirt. Ok, back to that history lesson". The more we make this stuff rare, the more attention it gets.
At what point do you draw the line?
Where would you?

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PoorManQ45 wrote:At what point do you draw the line?
Exactly my point. I was almost certainly more disruptive than any shirt would have been (or cross dressers, or lesbians, etc). But they couldn't really ban me. Some things make sense. I'm all for banning cell phones in schools and the like. Or anything that makes loud noises that could compromise the effectiveness of the class. But who cares what clothes you're wearing (as long as you're wearing them) or who you hold hands with or whatever? People need to stop finding that disruptive or they will end up having a really rough time later in life. Welcome to the real world, folks.

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Razi
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AppleBonker wrote:People need to stop finding that disruptive or they will end up having a really rough time later in life. Welcome to the real world, folks.
+1 :mike

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IBCoupe
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Here might be a nifty test:

How is this item or activity purported to distract? If it is an active, outward expression (yelling, or throwing things, for example), then the person who is distracted is doing so in a passive manner - something is being done to the class that could reasonably be expected to distract them.

Alternatively, if the expression is passive (a T-shirt, a skirt, an angry face), the person who is distracted by it is doing so in an active manner - they have to be paying attention to the expression in the first place to be distracted by it.

Now, I'm not sure that this can be an all-encompassing test, but it's certainly intuitive as to a person's reasonable or unreasonable claim of distraction, in my opinion.

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Jesda
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Actually, PMQ makes a couple points with some legal precedent backing it. While prom is not an academic activity, uniformity of attire CAN be regulated by the school. Schools are permitted to set dress codes and mandate uniforms for girls and boys but are not permitted to ban specific political speech.

So, a school can say whether girls wear blue skirts or black pants if the policy is applied to all girls, but it cannot interfere with an anti-war statement in the form of a bracelet or button.

Prom is not considered a venue for political self-expression. The Tinker case was specifically about political speech. One's sex is NOT a direct political statement and is therefore NOT protected speech in a school.

And being a lesbian has to do with sexual orientation, NOT the sex of the student. The school is free to maintain sex-specific dress codes, even uniforms, as long as it maintains non-discriminatory policies.

1. A girl wearing a dress is NOT anti-lesbian. Being a gay female is not the same as being a male.
2. However, canceling prom because a lesbian might attend is discriminatory in a way that is considered unfair based on the school's own policies.

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IBCoupe
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While that's all very interesting, it sort of misses the point. The conversation with PMQ, from my perspective at least, is more about what should be, rather than what is.

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PoorManQ45
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IBCoupe wrote:While that's all very interesting, it sort of misses the point. The conversation with PMQ, from my perspective at least, is more about what should be, rather than what is.
The dress code is fully implemented currently.


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