KA24DE with sr20 injectors, 300zx maf, ecu chip what you think??

[JF240]

Hi,I would like to upgrade a bit my KA, I have in my garage sr20 injectors 370cc with a beautiful 300zx maf. Does somebody already make this setup here? I would also make a ecu tune. Does I need a cometic headgasket? or something else in the motor itself? It is to do drift at the track so it have to be safe. My Ka have only 125000 km. Thank you for your help

[Chris28]

Bonjour! Is English a second language for you?

There really isn't any point in adding bigger injectors and a larger maf unless you plan to turbocharge the KA. Sure it can be done, but there isn't really a need to. Those modifications are so you have the capabilities of producing more power safely, not to actually make the power. You don't need a cometic head gasket for that.

The stock KA can spin tires all day long. Get skinny tires and run pretty high tire pressure, that way you can link turns at the track. Good luck!

[JF240]

HaHA sorry you are right english is a second language for me, I am from Montreal i am french yes I know that with my KA I can easilly drift I already drift for about 3 year with my Ka with small 15" 195 large, Its only because I have these parts in my garage that are doing nothing so thats why I think about installing them. I only want to know if it is safe for the motor and if I will gain power I dont want to go turbo for now, My setup for now is coilover selex, tension rod cusco, 2 way kaaz, strut bar, catback 3"... but nothing into my motor. I just want like 10-20hp more, Thank you for your answers.

[volcomskater773]

i actually have this setup on my N/A. but i tuned it with an safc. 5+ across the board (-22 with the sr injectors) and the maf is awesome very accurate. it will pull out a few extra horses but unless you have internals like i do probably not looking at a major gain. (of course the sr injectors were the only thing i had to throw in a fuel rail at the time. ka injectors can pack a punch as well but the maf is a good idea regradless)

[liquid_cool]

unless you add some simple mods..like cams..or say pistons..you really dont need to go bigger with the maf or injectors...you can however sell those to someone with mods..and buy a needed part like a nice seat..or a CAI..just my opinion..good luck..what ever you decide.

[JF240]

Ok, so you tell me that with my stock internal I could buy a SAFC install my sr injector and my maf and it woud'nt make any gain of power or I will gain power, how much hp more? Thank you

[DaniMike]

Hi! Nice to meet you! Not much would be gained as far as I know. Try these first if you haven't already: intake, exhaust, SOHC pistons for higher comp., cams, and ofcourse suspension. We are all here to try and help. Hopefully someone has a definitive answer on whether just an ijn., maf and chip upgrade will be enough to add more ponies. If you need a head gasket replacement, I would go for Fel Pro head gasket before trying cometic metal gaskets, just my opinion.

Good luck!

If no one has a good answer, you can always try it and after a tune dyno it to see if you gained any hp. No harm in trying!

[Bigvinnie]

There really isn't any point in adding bigger injectors and a larger maf unless you plan to turbocharge the KA.

Not true. changing out the maf with an ecu tune will change the load value to the ecu. The engine will also take in more atmospheric pressure due to the diameter differences of the maf. If you want a high powered high rev NA ka this is the route you would want to take.

Stock MAF OBD1 is 52mmStock MAF OBD2 is 58mmN60/N62 MAF is 70mm

Stock KA Throttle body is 60mm so it only makes sense to use the larger mMAF so that the TB is maximized at 100% efficiency.

I've done this for my NA KA with stock internals peak power is now at 6500RPM, rather than 5800RPM with the stock MAF.

The sr injectors are good so that the injectors don't reach peak duty cycle which shouldn't be any higher than 80%. When I used ecu talk to find out how I blew out 2 of my stock injectors that were 270cc came to find out that duty cycle was maxing at 98% with 162whp @6500RPM.


Modified by Bigvinnie at 9:34 PM 10/19/2009

[volcomskater773]

Ok, so you tell me that with my stock internal I could buy a SAFC install my sr injector and my maf and it woud'nt make any gain of power or I will gain power, how much hp more? Thank you

Vous gagnerez le pouvoir pas autant que remplacant juste interne mais oui la réponse simple vous ferez. je suis d'accord avec vinnie va cette route. (if french is your first language)

you will gain power just not as much as swapping internals but yes simple answer you will. i agree with vinnie go this route. (if english is your first language)


Modified by volcomskater773 at 1:40 AM 10/20/2009

[Bigvinnie]

^^^^^ besides for the price it's the biggest bang for your buck modification that allows your engine to breath better.$60 for MAFFree ecu tuning or $150 for SAFC300z tt or q45 95~97 injectors for $100 at a junk yard.better rev range, and maybe a 3-10whp gain.

Thats cheaper than what I paid for my DC sports header which was $390 plus shipping when I bought it 4 years ago.

The N62 MAF is in question however because the voltage range is so wide when compared to the N60. The ecu won't recognize alot of the incoming velocity to cool the hotwire. I would prefer an N60 which is easier to tune with for it's voltage range.

[volcomskater773]

i concur lol. from experience i can tell you the n62 isnt really needed until about 350hp or more so the n60 should do wonders.

Je concours lol. de l'expérience je peux dire que vous le n62 n'est pas vraiment eu besoin de jusqu'à ce que de 350hp ou plus si le n60 devrait faire des prodiges.

[JF240]

Thanks for the french translation haha, I have no problem to understand english, its to write appropriate phrase in english that is my problem lol. So I think that I will try to only install sr20 injectors with my 300zxMAF and also a walbro fuel pump(it will already be there if i want to go turbo). I will command an custom ecu from http://www.e-mance.com my frends already command from them and theu are great. But I will have to wait for spring because I have the restore my 240 for the winter, alot of snow in quebec lol. If you want to make a picture of my car here it is. Thank for the help
Modified by JF240 at 12:49 AM 10/21/2009

[volcomskater773]

if you have it use it why not? and the safc is much more user friendly. remember -27 across for sr injectors = 0 for ka injectors. and 4 in 5 out is the setting for the 300 zx maf.

and i like to speak in other languages. (french, japanese, and small amounts of german)

Aller avec le safc. beaucoup de plus facile et vous pouvez changer les cadres quand vous ne veut pas aller à un magasin chaque temps vous avez besoin d'un air.

tour doux


Modified by volcomskater773 at 12:54 AM 10/21/2009

[JF240]

Ok, but now I am between safc or a custum chip from e mance, witch would be the best? HEHE my fuel pump is already order

[volcomskater773]

In my opinion the safc. i love mine super easy to tune and has monitoring as well. gives you experience tuning too. i would usually only go for the chip with boost because for na its overkill.

[Bigvinnie]

Personally I would go the route VIA ecu tuning. I myself was personally done with the SAFC a year ago. It is user friendly but there aren't enough NE points on the SAFC to keep the A/F range linear and smooth. Good example is my dyno.My A/fr's would not remain consistent. The main objective was to shoot for a 12.6:1 A/Fr by the time I wanted peak HP at 6500RPM. By the time you afford dyno tuning, and afford teh SAFC you could of walked out with a decent ecu tune. I myself am d!ck around with NISTUNE rather than having someone else tune my ecu.

[volcomskater773]

yeah but the neo has 16 points which is alot more than the safc. i havent had a problem.

[Bigvinnie]

SAFC has 8 NE-PointsSAFC2 has 12 NE- PointsSAFC NEO has 16 NE-Points

I have an SAFC 2 with 12 NE-Points, Neo like you said has 16. Even with 16 NE-Points it doesn't make up for the 650points that would be needed to stabilize and maintain a constant A/Fr this is because SAFC's do not constantly maintain ignition timing either. SAFCs switch over the LOAD MAP which reads it's maps from the inlet air passing the hotwire of the MAF which will change injector flow, the corresponding ignition map to that injector flow will either retard or advance timing according to the MAP that is programmed to the ecu. Higher up in the fuel MAPS increasing fuel will retard timing. Then there will be timing advance from the distributor/CAS to compensate for the loss in timing from the ecu. This is really not an efficient way to tune an engine. It's also gets unsafe once you start to plus or minus 10 for the fuel demand on the safc. It's actually just changing it's fuel/ignition maps from the existing RPM that it was programmed for, this somewhat makes it dangerous to the engine.

I would actually prefer that people spend the extra money on a greddy emanage which allows changes to the ignition timing. Or just doing a standalone ecu or reprogrammed ecu.

This is just advise from experience, I am not at all trying to be insulting. If all that can be afforded at the time is an SAFC then do it. It is affordable to own while dyno tuning may get expensive.
Modified by Bigvinnie at 9:23 AM 10/22/2009

[JF240]

Ok so I will go with an ecu tune, my walbro fuel pump is order, I am just waiting for this, I will install everything next week or the other week. I have to install them before the snow arrive, even if today it snow a little bit, I cant wait for the whole winter lol . I will tell how it goes and if it worth it , I hope lol
Modified by JF240 at 8:52 PM 10/22/2009

[-RJ-]

awesome. be sure to tell us because this peaked my interest

[D-UNIT]

There really isn't any point in adding bigger injectors and a larger maf unless you plan to turbocharge the KA. Sure it can be done, but there isn't really a need to.

I'm sorry chris but this statement simply is not true. If you look at my sig below , I made that power with a really big maf (97mm) and 740cc injectors! Btw that is with stock cams and stock exhuast manifold. I did have a 3in. intake and exhuast with no cat.

[seang]

^^What about the 210hp bolt on turbo kits that use stock injectors? I'm not trying to diss your statement, and I especially take Bigvinnie's words, (he said his stock 270cc injectors maxed out at 162whp), to be of KA24 venerability, but what gives?

[Bigvinnie]

^^What about the 210hp bolt on turbo kits that use stock injectors? I'm not trying to diss your statement, and I especially take Bigvinnie's words, (he said his stock 270cc injectors maxed out at 162whp), to be of KA24 venerability, but what gives?

Just to clarify relative HP to rev range.

A bolt on turbo KA will make 180whp MAX with the stock maf and 270cc injectors. The problem is that peak power won't exceed 6000RPM boosted and blown with the stock G60, and possibly 6200RPM with the G70 MAF.

The problem is duty cycle. As the RPM increases and the engine demands more power the injectors have to pulse more frequently. Within 1 second an injector can pulse up to 400 times.

So at 6500RPM/60 seconds = 108.33333 an injector will open, multiply that by it's pulse. 108.333 X 400 pulses. 43,333/4 strokes=10833.333 This means at 6500RPM an injector will pulse 10,833.333, times with 1 minute of revolutions at 6500 RPM. This is just hypothetical though, as this would be an injector reaching it's duty cycle at 100%. Larger injectors will pulse less. This is all relative to the calculation of theoretical pulse width. An injector should never reach passed it's 80% duty cycle, 270cc injectors simply cannot handle the flow capacity needed at 6500RPM to make peak HP without buring out.

The toyota MR2 injectors are actually better suited for a naturally aspirated ka using an N60 maf as its flow rate is 310cc's, but these injectors are top feed and need a top feed fuel rail. The reason why these injectors are better suited than the 370cc injectors is because air and fuel atomization is optimized with a more efficient spray pattern. The higher that injector flow rate is the weaker the spray pattern. This is what hurt HP in naturally aspirated engines.

Next up are the sr20det/q45/300ztt side feed injectors. There not the best for atomization, but because they are abundantly available it is the injector of choice, and its reliable because it's a JECS injector.

I would stress using either one of these injectors over the stock 270cc injectors. If one of the 270cc injectors fails to either open or close, it can cause serious problems to he engine.

Also just to clarify at 162WHP X 1.26 degradation = 204Crank HP that's 15 HP less than than what these injectors are estimated to make peak HP at.

[D-UNIT]

^^What about the 210hp bolt on turbo kits that use stock injectors? I'm not trying to diss your statement, and I especially take Bigvinnie's words, (he said his stock 270cc injectors maxed out at 162whp), to be of KA24 venerability, but what gives?

yeah thats why we're on a cool forum like nico , we get to talk and learn new stuff. What I'm saying is you have injectors w/ 120,000+ miles on them. The pintles are worn out , the coils are failing , inside the body probably all crusty. Common sense tells me that brand new injectors are going to give you something maybe even 10+whp (especially bigger ones that don't have too work as hard). Bigvinnie is saying exactly what I'm saying , bigger maf and inj. w/ proper tuning won't hurt anything and you might even gain something. I sure did!!!

Btw to answer your question most turbo kits that use stock injectors also use a FMU which raises fuel pressure really high and forces a lot of fuel through the small stock injector when it opens simulating a much larger injector.

[Chris28]

I'm sorry chris but this statement simply is not true. If you look at my sig below , I made that power with a really big maf (97mm) and 740cc injectors! Btw that is with stock cams and stock exhuast manifold. I did have a 3in. intake and exhuast with no cat.

The stock DE is rated at 155 hp. What were you using to control the larger maf and injectors?

[Bigvinnie]

The stock DE is rated at 155 hp. What were you using to control the larger maf and injectors?

155 is at the crank stock.D-units is at the wheels.

This means he is making 154X1.26=194.4 Crank HP. Those are pretty good numbers for a MAF and injector swap out.

[Chris28]

Ah ok, thanks for the explanation. That is pretty good for merely a maf and injector swap. Do you know if he has an ecu tune or is he running an safc?

[Bigvinnie]

Ah ok, thanks for the explanation. That is pretty good for merely a maf and injector swap. Do you know if he has an ecu tune or is he running an safc?

I don't know the answer to that but I would assume because peak torque and HP are so close to each other that it is an ecu tune. You can't make those numbers with an SAFC unless the ecu is tuned prior for small changes on the safc. My torque and HP figures were way off with the SAFC. Peak torque was 153, peak avg was 143 and peak HP on mine was 162. My power was not calibrated for consistency.

I think Dunit posted a thread about his maf and injector setup almost 2 years ago. My memory can be hazy but there is a thread here somewhere.

[D-UNIT]

oh man sorry guys. I start early (3:00am) and finish late (5:30pm) to tired to log on sometimes.

anyway chris28 I'm ASSuming stands for T28 i'm a big fan. I can't seem to find your horsepower and dyno threads. Btw I have a T28 too! And Bigvinnie your KA and technical knowledge on here and other forums is astounding! Yes I do have a dyno thread in late feb or so. I'll shorten my set-ups long story.

I have a JimWolf stage 4 turbo ecu for my turbo set-up. Tuned for 740cc Tomei injectors and a 93 ford cobra MAF. Jwt said I could only use the stock oem ford maf - $325. I know jwt tunes conservative so I wanted an safc too - $180???= $505 or so. Then I found this fully tunable 100% digital MAf. I had two choices 85mm or 97mm ( can flow over 1000+ whp) The V8 shop guys said get the bigger one cuz its digital and only $10 more. = $395 maf and tunability.

SInce Jwt doesn't use endorse anything but stock mafs (probably 4 legal reasons) I decided to run my set up N/A so if something was wrong I wouldn't blow my engine. So I loaded the 93 ford program and fired her up. OMG ran like a champ. Took it on the street INSANE I never felt a KA like that. It could burnout in first then let off , catch , stomp it again and start burning out again all the way to redline , turbo style it was crazy (15in w/ ss595s). Pls the high end opened up big time. I was revving to 7200rpm and it felt like it was pulling hard all the way. I thought the turbo ecu would be pulling timing and acting up but no it was great. Must dyno NOW! It felt like 175- 180+whp. I raced a KA-T w/a T25 @ 7psi. I smoked him 1-2-3 over six car lenghts. He said his car bogged (famous one) and he let off So I said lets go again he said "nah" and looked all dejected.

Disclaimer!! The above statements were done w/ an LC-1 wideband , that for some reason loves to uncalibate itself. I highly recommend getting a WB and using the analog output emulator to feed o2 signal to your ECU. Awesome feeling. My dyno runs were without WB. it kept acting up so I unplugged it and used the stock one (bad move). Tried to adjust maf to compensate but I didn't know what the hell I was doing and made it worst. stupid LC-1.

Anyway my first pull was off the shops WB gauge - below 8.0:1afrs but I still managed a 151whp and 154ft-lbs. I tried maf tuning again but it got worse (wasted run). My final run was at 9.5:1 afrs and hit 154whp and 158 ft-lbs. I was impressed but I knew it had way more but I ran outta time. Btw when It was crazy fast on the street it was about 11.2:1 afrs. *deep breath**whew* lol.

Stock engine , no header , egr working , swirl valves working , stock cams (91 thou) , 3in intake / exhuast , JWT lightweight flywheel , clutch fan delete.

[Chris28]

Haha I am running a t28, but the 28 stands for my birthday (5/28). I want to get to a dyno at some point, but since I got a mail-order ecu tune I didn't have to get dyno tuned and I don't feel like spending the cash to see how much power I'm putting down. I've walked quite a few sr's with basic bolt-ons however. If I had to guess I'd say around 250 hp (t28, 370cc's, 10 psi).

Next setup is Garrett Super 60, z32 mafs, and 740cc injectors

I know what you mean with the tuned ecu on an N/A. When I did everything except the turbo on my car was driving around with the tuned ecu, and I could feel a big difference over stock.