Immigration - closing the borders

[96Qowner]

There's a discussion going on in another thread about immigration reform and I thought I'd start one with a question about "closing the borders".

I live in ND, so I'm not terribly familiar with illegal immigration, even though our region has had immigrant farm workers for several decades and probably houses many illegals. Here's my question: How did Mexicans cross our border in the first place? Did they sneak across or did they merely drive across and never return? If they all sneaked across, then we can just enforce the border and we solve the problem. But, to my knowledge, Mexicans can cross the border at any time, just like we can cross into Mexico. It's just that they don't HAVE to go back when they say they're gonna go back. I can go to Canada for tourism any day I like. Nothing forces me to return to the States. Is it the same for most Mexican citizens?

If that's true, then there is no way to stop illegal immigration. Sure, we can try to prevent them from working once they've violated their privileges, but that only drives them into the underground economy and crime. In this country, the authorities can't randomly stop people and demand "their papers". So, if we allow Mexicans to cross the border for any reason, they can just stay.

Right?

So, how do we "close the borders"?

[audtatious]

They do a little of both. Some come to visit, never to return. Others come on work visa's and never return. Others come across open areas of the border while others scale fences or dig underneath.

I have no issue with immigrants. I do have a issue with such lopsided immigration due to the number of Mexican illegals that are here (we are supposed to be a melting pot for all countries). I have an issue with the stress they put on our economy as well. I also don't like the current law that makes any child born in the US to be an automatic citizen of the US if his/her parents are foreign nationals.

Blah Blah Blah

[96Qowner]

So "closing the borders" is just a phrase ... Right? Means nothing. As long as Mexicans are allowed to cross the border for for legitimate reasons, they'll continue not to go back.

[srellim234]

I'm all for changing the Social Security Card to resemble a driver's license. Every company should have to complete an I-9 identification and submit it to the Feds for withholding, etc. on payroll.

Coordinate the IRS, INS, etc. onto a massive database for cross-referencing. The same SSI# coming up as employed in CA and IN should arouse suspicion and be audited. If it's legit, it will be cleared up quickly. If it's not (as in a forged set of ID), the taxpayers keep what was withheld and the person gets deported.

Businesses that are habitual offenders or caught circumventing the system start paying fines starting at 100% of the year's gross profits. Make it sting and the illegal immigrants will deport themselves when the jobs aren't available any more.

Farmers can cry about needing farmworkers; let them raise what they're paying to whatever rate they have to pay to get legitimate workers and raise food prices accordingly. Or even sponsor specific immigrants and guarantee their return to the border or their next farm after the crop is harvested. There must be a paper trail and Payroll tax tracking all the way until the immigrant leaves.

Seems to me that the biggest raids on illegal immigrants are taking place in factories and assembly plants, not on farms, and no one's paying attention to the fact that those business aren't dependent on migrant workers. They only illegally use them to pad the exec's pockets.

[audtatious]

So "closing the borders" is just a phrase ... Right? Means nothing. As long as Mexicans are allowed to cross the border for for legitimate reasons, they'll continue not to go back.

Uhm....no

Double fence with barb wire and land mines.

[srellim234]

Let's designate the southern border as a giant long, narrow military base. Our troops can train in surveillance and enforcement by watching the border, stopping anyone coming in but let anyone go who is headed south.

[APEXi240]

Farmers can cry about needing farmworkers; let them raise what they're paying to whatever rate they have to pay to get legitimate workers and raise food prices accordingly. Or even sponsor specific immigrants and guarantee their return to the border or their next farm after the crop is harvested. There must be a paper trail and Payroll tax tracking all the way until the immigrant leaves.

I agree with some of what you said, but this becomes a very difficult issue. A lot of farmers (especially small to medium sized farms) have huge difficulty maintaining profitability, for a myriad of reasons. There are millions of dollars that already go towards subsidies for farmers for various reasons. Eliminating low wage work could possibly be the nail in the coffin for many farm owners. Raising prices will simply eliminate small to medium farms leaving only the largest farming corporations. The competition for setting price points on food already eliminates huge numbers of farmers from participating in a nation-wide market.

Secondly a problem that arises is the complete lack of employable labor that will then be available. In addition the labor that is then available is not as qualified or does not produce as high of a quality product/work ethic, etc.

[wingFeather]

I've seen first-hand how out of control Mexican illegals are... I grew up in L.A. That city has gone downhill from the weight of the illegals. We need to implement every measure we can think of to stop this madness, but in a way it's already too late. The illegals are telling Washington what to do already

[APEXi240]

It's interesting because in the Northeast illegal immigrants are much less of a burden on society (IMO) than they would be in a place like LA. I obviously see and read all of the problems of illegal immigration and the effects on crime, strains on social welfare systems, businesses and the economy, but those problems just don't seem to have as much of an impact here.

[srellim234]

APEX- By low wage workers are you suggesting below minimum wage?

Notice that I make the "illegal" into "legitimate" with a sponsorship program. Maybe something like the would-be farmworkers signing up at a border employment office. Farmers, big and small, sign up for "X" # of workers for a specified calendar period through some channel that assigns a worker to a farm. Farmers could even request specific workers they want back from previous years. $$ per hour could be determined ahead of time, too.

Work the program like a temp agency, with workers checking out at the border after the assignment and/or checking in at the employment assignment office again.

[APEXi240]

By low wage, I mean low as in close to minimum wage, which I feel is more applicable to the Northeast. When you are discussing low wage in regards to farming, (more specifically harvesting), we are talking below the national minimum wage.

From my personal experience, illegal immigrants working in factories, restaurants, landscaping, and construction in the New Jersey/New York metropolitan area receive above minimum wage, but lower than what they would receive if they were legal immigrants with a proper standing, such as a work visa or permanent resident card.

[audtatious]

People don't really think about the amnesty issue either. "Give them amnesty, they are here anyway. Give them citizenship" and "We need their cheap labor". Well, let's take a look at that...

1) Giving amnesty will immediately give these illegal aliens full access to all of our social services, more than they do now2) Cheap labor? As citizens they will be protected by US law so there goes all the "cheap labor" that farmers have by using them now. To further expand on that I am 100% sure that they would be unionized at some point thus the amount they receive will again go up.

So, if amnesty is granted (people are still pushing for it) then the price of food sources will increase just as much as if the farmers had to start using our own citizens for labor by raising their pay rates. 6/1 = 1/2 dozen of another.

[AZhitman]

Another big issue is the impact on education.

My GF is Asst Principal and 5th grade teacher at an "inner-city" chater school.

96% of the school is LL (English Language Learner). How is that representative of the general population?

Gess what? In that part of town, it is.

They just finished standardized testing... median scores across the 5th grade showed the students functioning at grade level 1.7 across curricula.

Now, if I have a gifted kid in that school, what's gonna happen to him / her?

[Jesda]

Small farms that are less efficient SHOULD be squeezed out of the market, unless they can find a niche by offering higher quality.

As for Los Angels, I suspect that city's problems have to do with it being an overpriced craphole, long before any immigrants arrived.

Illegal immigration NEEDS TO BE STOPPED, but a guest-worker program for interested participants would be favorable. As Matt said above, having them work under US labor laws will increase their cost and eliminate their demand.

Everyone with some brains and the will to succeed should come here, as it benefits us economically to have a large labor pool. However, there's a well-established path to citizenship that must be followed.

[srellim234]

As cold hearted as this sounds, there is nothing in this world that is a consumer's God-given right to buy that is justified by breaking the law to get it to that consumer. Minimum wage laws should apply to EVERBODY, farmworkers included.

The illegals do not belong in those factories, restaurants, etc. and are only there to increase the business owner's profit. If the business cannot survive without circumventing the law, then either the owner shouldn't be running the business, there is a flawed business plan, there is too much competition in the industry, or the law is too restrictive and needs to be changed. None of those justifies breaking the law to stay in business.

This country for centuries has survived with immigrant groups coming here LEGALLY and doing jobs that nobody else wanted to do. Mining, factory workers, building trades, police work, etc. It should still be working the same way.

Again, run the whole thing like a giant temp agency, above board with the parties identified. Force the businesses to quit illegal practices in pursuit of greed.

[96Qowner]

Uhm....no

Double fence with barb wire and land mines.

Arg. Everyone misses my point. If Mexicans can cross the border to work or for tourism or whatever, then ... they're here. They DO NOT have to return. There is no such thing as "closing the border".

What we do after they're here is a different issue. If we allow them across in the first place for any reason, once they're here, they just stay.

And if we refuse to allow them legitimate work, they'll just go underground. Crime will skyrocket, gangs will proliferate - bad stuff all around.

"Closing the borders." No such thing. Right? Heck, we'd have to put GPS ankle bracelets on all of 'em to keep track, wouldn't we?

[HashiriyaS14]

Uhm....no

Double fence with barb wire and land mines.

This will NEVER happen, just so you know.

If maintaining rosy relations with the nations of central and south America wasn't more important than securing our borders, we would have deported illegals and secured said borders ages ago. It is NOT, however, more important, at least not to the leadership of this country, ANY leadership, for the last 3 decades (at least), Democratic or Republican.

Whether or not they like to talk about it, pols on BOTH sides are willing to put up with the illegal immigration problem so long as it gives us stellar relations with Central and South American nations, many of which have many illegals inside our borders sending wealth home to their families.

Same philosophy behind NAFTA. It's altruism to central and south America at our direct expense, and all it buys is are rosy relations. It has long been determined, by BOTH parties, that we ARE effectively in the business of giving charity to the rest of the hemisphere. Live with it.

[srellim234]

There are other ways to look at it, 96. If legal avenues are provided for work to be found here, your "doom and gloom" doesn't happen. If the job market dries up, many of the people who came here illegally will quietly slip away going the other direction across the border.

The gangs, crimes, etc. are not perpetrated by the people who are willing to work. Not those paying it lip service, but those who are really willing to work. Those farmworkers and factory workers are not the same type of people who fall into gangs. They are risking a lot to better themselves and their families and are not the type of people who will fall into the despair you describe. Most will simply move on to where the prospects are better.

Allow the illegals who are here and already working to sign up through their employers, under a 3 or 6 month amnesty for both the employer and employee, for the "temp agency" type sponsorship program I proposed. Let the military and national guard units patrol the border during the amnesty period to stop others from trying to come in at that time. Let them escort out anyone who is leaving.

After the six months, crack down on the illegals and the business owners who hire them "under the table."

[96Qowner]

I tend to think the same way you do. I'm not rabid about illegals. They're here, they're contributing, they're part of the economy, they pay taxes, they're not leaving.

All I'm confronting is the "close the borders" rhetoric. I think it's a great idea to keep more of them from coming. I'm just asking HOW we "close the borders". If we can't "close the borders" then we have no control AT ALL over the number that will come here.

At one time, I figured it'd be a good idea just to annex Mexico. They do have all that oil. Might as well do Belize, too, leaving a tiny little border with Guatemala. Problem solved.

[Jimefam]

This is the reason that illegal immigration will not stop.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03....html

The state of colorado passed strict immigrant laws, the immigrants left and the whole state panicked because the "poor legal workers" whose jobs those damned immigrants were taking never showed up. No american is willing to do hard work for minimum wage. They were in such a panic that they turned to inmate labor which costs more and was not efficient. Americans simply are unwilling to do manual labor at the going rate. All blue collar work that can be out-sourced will be because americans want $30 an hour for a minimum wage job. Look these people come here to work we should make a deal with them. We will allow them to live here as long as they have a job, pay taxes and follow the law. Also we can prevent them from using any public programs for a period of say five years. After this "trial" period they can attain legal resident status and wait another five years for full citizenship. It would be a steady influx of cheap labor which will allow the us to remain competitive globally and provide those who come and work a path to legal immigration. This will never happen though because this countries real concern about illegal immigration is a cultural one rather then a economic or legal one. The simple fact is that after 200 years of immigration the "white man" is on the verge of becoming a minority and that is unnerving for some. I get that but the states on the coasts that have assimilated are stronger for it. Its not by accident that the most diverse states in the union are the strongest financially while the "heartland" struggles along.

This country for centuries has survived with immigrant groups coming here LEGALLY and doing jobs that nobody else wanted to do. Mining, factory workers, building trades, police work, etc. It should still be working the same way.

It was the same before as now. Any number of people would come here an there was no "illegal" immigration. People would just be allowed to work and everything as soon as they got here no questions asked. One day they just decided to not allow that anymore, the immigrants before didn't do anything more than illegal immigrants do now their was just no "illegal" way of doing it.

[srellim234]

If we're so good at securing foreign countries, let the military secure the southern border. One long, narrow, joint forces military base. Take it out of the politicians' hands and put it in the hands of our people in uniform and the border will get secured in a hurry.

[HashiriyaS14]

If we're so good at securing foreign countries, let the military secure the southern border. One long, narrow, joint forces military base. Take it out of the politicians' hands and put it in the hands of our people in uniform and the border will get secured in a hurry.

That would be unbelievably expensive to try and secure a border that long with what would essentially be an endless military deployment.

Better just to make the legalization process easier so that all these people can do the work Americans don't want to do. Just be sure they pay taxes and don't send all that money back home to Mexico or another nation, it should stay here.

[96Qowner]

*Groan*

As long as we allow Mexicans to come across the border to visit relatives, to work, to vacation, for any reason at all, our border will never be secure. There is no way to find them once they don't go back.

C'mon, folks, am I totally off-base? Why can't I get this concept across?

[audtatious]

Arg. Everyone misses my point. If Mexicans can cross the border to work or for tourism or whatever, then ... they're here. They DO NOT have to return. There is no such thing as "closing the border".

What we do after they're here is a different issue. If we allow them across in the first place for any reason, once they're here, they just stay.

So, Mexico/US border becomes the gateway to the US with no restrictions? I don't think so.

And if we refuse to allow them legitimate work, they'll just go underground. Crime will skyrocket, gangs will proliferate - bad stuff all around.

What's the point in having laws at all then? Without laws then there would be no crime, right?

[96Qowner]

I don't mean to be aggravating, but I can't seem to make my point.

How ... do ... we ... "close" ... the ... border?

We just stop letting any Mexican ever enter the USA for any reason?

[audtatious]

This will NEVER happen, just so you know.

Of course it won't. The comment was in jest.

All we have to do is make it more painful for our own citizens to hire illegals than it is for them to profit off their backs. If they have no jobs to come to, can't have kids here who are immediately citizens and can't get Gov-sponsored services (other than critical care in an ER) then there would be no reason for them to come over here illegally.

[audtatious]

I don't mean to be aggravating, but I can't seem to make my point.

How ... do ... we ... "close" ... the ... border?

We just stop letting any Mexican ever enter the USA for any reason?

Fence it up and add more border enforcement. Do what I stated above. "Reform" immigration so there are ways for workers to be here legally if needed.

I've never stated we don't let Mexicans in the USA. I have no problem with Mexicans at all. I have a problem with anyone who comes over here illegally. It just happens that the majority of illegal aliens are Mexican nationals. FWIW your last statement is close to calling us racists which will effectively throw out any discussion on this topic.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

It's altruism to central and south America at our direct expense, and all it buys is are rosy relations. It has long been determined, by BOTH parties, that we ARE effectively in the business of giving charity to the rest of the hemisphere. Live with it.

You're misusing the term "altruism." No state ever does anything altruistically.

Moving on.

[96Qowner]

How do we make visitors go back, after we've let them across the border? If we can;t make them go back, we have not "closed" the border.

Am I crazy? Why can't anyone understand this?

Ack, I have no intention of being racist. I just know that the border is with Mexico, not with any other country. We're talking about the Mexican border, so I refer to Mexicans. I already Clearly stated that I have no issue with Mexicans or illegals of any kind. I already Clearly said that they work, they pay taxes, they contribute, etc.

You're serious? You're ... offended?

If we let Mexicans OR ANY OTHER NATIONALITY over the border, how do we make them go home?

What does a "closed" border mean, if anyone can cross it?

[96Qowner]

The more I think about it the more I'm offended by the racism crack of yours. 85% of the illegals in this country are Mexicans. Ease off.

For pete's sake, I'm the guy who's questioning the knee-jerk "close the borders" rhetoric.

If you're just trying to save me from my own words, use a smiley or sumpin.