Immigration - closing the borders

[audtatious]

From a racism perspective I'm stopping it before it happens. Every time it comes to a thread about illegals you have someone spouting off racism. Did I think you were going there? No. Others may have read the comment and taken it down that path in which discussion in this thread is hopeless at that point.

Why do "they" come over here? Because there are no jobs "there" and "their" gov sucks. They feel they can come over here and get jobs easily along with health care. If they spit out a kid while here then they have further planted themselves here more permanently. If you take away the incentive for them to come over here, by forcing employers to "play by the rules" then you have effectively removed one of the main reasons they come here. Disallow basic services and end the "born citizen" clause and you have removed more reason. Additionally, setup a border fence so nobody can simply walk across the border without going through controlled corridors.

While the above will not 100% stop illegals from crossing over it will severely limit it. If the illegals here can't get a job they will start to migrate back home and get on "a list" to get a work visa so they can come over here and work legally. The solution is multi-pronged and has to start somewhere. Maybe this will help them to press forth reform in their own country as well.

[96Qowner]

Sorry, Matt, I just flared at the insinuation.

I'm think I'm gonna give up. I never cared to talk about anything but what "close the border" is supposed to mean. Since not a single person seems to get it, I'm gonna just shut up.

Whatever.

[Jimefam]

Ok i'll explain it to you. "Closing the Border" is a soundbite used to make people that hate illegals feel warm and fuzzy. Its simply a political phrase used to get out the conservative vote like the gay marriage debate. Not doable in the real world.

[audtatious]

I think it's quite clear. We have 3 choices:

1) leave things as they are2) Implement more enforcement and rules to fix the problem (or the majority thereof)3) Open all borders and relinquish our sovereignty as a country

I guess I'm just not following you

[audtatious]

Ok i'll explain it to you. "Closing the Border" is a soundbite used to make people that hate illegals feel warm and fuzzy. Its simply a political phrase used to get out the conservative vote like the gay marriage debate. Not doable in the real world.

I disagree. I know many Democrats that are for "closing the border" as well.

[Jimefam]

I didn't mention any party? sure many democrats are in favor of "closing the border". Where did you get that I meant republicans???

[audtatious]

I assumed. My apologies.

So, if it's just a "sound bite" for those who hate then what is the solution to the problem for those that don't hate?

[Jimefam]

Something along the lines of what I suggested earlier. Realizing that we cannot effectively "Close" the border. First it is logistically impossible and second like it or not we benefit from the majority of illegals being here lets figure out a way to best use them while keeping us safer. Here is a good start:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/...08420

I dont agree with everything he said but it is much closer to reality than simply saying "Close the border!!!" By the way he is republican.

[Jesda]

It has long been determined, by BOTH parties, that we ARE effectively in the business of giving charity to the rest of the hemisphere. Live with it.

That's the kind of retardation that put us in Iraq. (No offense.)
Modified by Jesda at 2:35 PM 9/27/2008

[audtatious]

Most of what he said is what I have said above. I never mentioned mass-deportation as a solution either but feel if regulations are in place in regards to jobs that they will leave on their own merit if they can't work nor receive any of our social program monies.

You and he are also correct in that it will be impossible to build a full border fence across TX and Cali border. Thus an "invisible" fence will have to do. While I did not specifically state that it was part of what I consider a "border fence"

I still do not see where people "hate" Mexicans (yes, you stated illegals, I'm making "the jump"). Citizens are frustrated with the way things have been handled and want some form of further enforcement. This does lead to resentment but I don't see it as hate.

[Jimefam]

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2006/index.html

Might be alot for you to wade through. If you need I can look for websites that have this broken up. Hate crimes against hispanics have shot up dramatically. I live in georgia and get called a "spic" or "dirty mexican" pretty regularly(mostly by cops believe it or not) even though I'm Colombian and have never been here illegally, have lived here since I was 3yrs old and speak better english than any of the rednecks up here. I had to go to three gun stores before I would find one that would sell to a "mexican" trust me theres some hate.

[audtatious]

Then effectively I can only discuss myself and my families views on illegals as none of us "hate" the people. You also can't really compare Cumming, GA as being "usual" in their approach to different races as that town and Forsyth county as a whole has always been a hot spot of bigotry.

Yes, I'm aware of the area as I lived in Lawrenceville/Suwannee/Flowery Branch from '85 through '95 and I'm also a GA native.

[AZhitman]

I don't think prople in the midwest can comprehend how someone can come to "hate" a certain population UNTIL they have lived in an area that seems to suffer more and more and more negative effects as a result (either real or percieved) OF that group.

I'm here. Come visit. I can show you the effects. It's not pretty.

[Jimefam]

Then effectively I can only discuss myself and my families views on illegals as none of us "hate" the people. You also can't really compare Cumming, GA as being "usual" in their approach to different races as that town and Forsyth county as a whole has always been a hot spot of bigotry.

Yes, I'm aware of the area as I lived in Lawrenceville/Suwannee/Flowery Branch from '85 through '95 and I'm also a GA native.

I never meant that you personally hated anyone. I mean that when people speak of the problem of illegal immigration they use economics as the basis for their arguement when in reality that doesn't hold up as bloomberg pointed out. It is much more a cultural issue than anything else. Take Forsyth county as an example since your familiar with it. There are many mexicans here probably illegally that work on the many farms and ranches around here. They are left alone when at work but routinely attacked at home and their was even a fire started in a trailer park community composed many of mexican here awhile back. The county absolutely needs them but the citizens absolutely hate them(for the most part). And yes I should have done some more reseach before moving here. I moved from miami, fl and had really no concept of racism and I work in atlanta but since I have 3 German shephards I wanted a house with a big yard near farms and stuff.

[audtatious]

Economics perspective is a double-edged sword. While being here they do help some based on lower paid wages by their employers, great food, etc., on the opposite side of that argument is that they cost us from a tax, housing, education, job availability, etc. perspective which negates any positive aspect. The days of having hundreds of immigrants in a field are pretty much over due to farms having mechanical processors for the food (other than things like strawberries and such) so they are now taking over areas where our own poor used to work as they are doing the work under the table in a lot of cases.

[Jimefam]

Actually there are few crops that can be harvested mechanically entirely. Read the article I posted above about colorado. They passed the tough immigration laws that you'd like and the immigrants left. Then they entered into a state of panic as they realized that all these "poor" americans that you spoke of never showed up to claim the jobs that had been "stolen" from them. Turns our "poor" americans rather collect food stamps then collect food. In a scramble they turned to inmate work which cost the farmers twice as much and was not effective as these people dont give a damn about doing the job right and dont have the knowledge either. All that was left was the colorado farmers yearning for the very illegals they had kicked out. As I said in my OPINION(thats all it is) let the people who actually want to work work. Have them pay taxes(which they would gladly do if they wouldn't get deported for it) and place a moritorium on them using social services for 5 years. But dont kid yourself these people contribute more than they take and would contribute even more if they weren't in hiding.

[audtatious]

Turns our "poor" americans rather collect food stamps then collect food.

Which should also be fixed. Again, this would not be a problem if we had a working workers program.

But dont kid yourself these people contribute more than they take and would contribute even more if they weren't in hiding.

I've looked over the positive and negative aspects of the illegal issue and see more negative than positives. I don't have time right now or I'd pull stats to prove my point.

[APEXi240]

In my personal opinion I see more positives than negatives, but again, I believe where I live has influenced my view of illegal immigrants much differently than someone in say...the deep south.

[HashiriyaS14]

That's the kind of retardation that put us in Iraq. (No offense.)

Modified by Jesda at 2:35 PM 9/27/2008

No offense taken, I didn't make the policy after all. I'm just pointing out what we do.

And yes, I somewhat misused the word "altruism", in response to an earlier post.

[96Qowner]

Wow, I read this in today's newspaper:

Washington, October 01, SPA--Mexicans living in the United States sent home 12 percent less money in August than they did a year ago, the largest drop on record since the Bank of Mexico began tracking remittances 12 years ago, the Mexican central bank reported Wednesday.

Remittances started dropping early this year, hurting many small towns and neighborhoods that depend on the money sent by relatives in the United States. The Bank of Mexico said remittances likely will continue to fall in the coming months because of the difficult problems the U.S. economy faces.

The central bank, based in Mexico City, said remittances in August fell 12 percent to $1.9 billion, compared to $2.2 billion in August 2007. Migrant workers living in the United Stats have sent home $15.5 billion in the first eight months of this year, 4 percent below the amount sent in the same period a year earlier. A slowing U.S. economy and intensified immigration enforcement by the U.S. government, including record-high deportations and increased border security, were the main factors in the decline in remittances.

Next to oil exports, remittances are Mexicos second-biggest source of foreign income. Nearly all of them come from the United States, home to 98 percent of Mexicans living abroad. At least 11 million Mexicans live in the United States.

http://www.gulfinthemedia.com/...0be00



Read this line again:

Next to oil exports, remittances are Mexicos second-biggest source of foreign income

[AZhitman]

Actually there are few crops that can be harvested mechanically entirely. Read the article I posted above about colorado. They passed the tough immigration laws that you'd like and the immigrants left. Then they entered into a state of panic as they realized that all these "poor" americans that you spoke of never showed up to claim the jobs that had been "stolen" from them. Turns our "poor" americans rather collect food stamps then collect food. In a scramble they turned to inmate work which cost the farmers twice as much and was not effective as these people dont give a damn about doing the job right and dont have the knowledge either. All that was left was the colorado farmers yearning for the very illegals they had kicked out. As I said in my OPINION(thats all it is) let the people who actually want to work work. Have them pay taxes(which they would gladly do if they wouldn't get deported for it) and place a moritorium on them using social services for 5 years. But dont kid yourself these people contribute more than they take and would contribute even more if they weren't in hiding.

Strong, strong post, my friend. Well-said.

I like your plan. I'd love to hear EITHER candidate adopt and verbalize it.

Like I said before, I think the experience of someone in GA or even CO is VERY different than those of us in AZ, SoCal, TX or NM. AZ is really the hotbed of this entire discussion, and unless you've seen the impact here firsthand, it's really hard to comprehend.

Phoenix doesn't get the press than many other big cities do, even though it's the 5th-largest city in the US, and the Phoenix Metro area is as big as the L.A. Metro area.

[Jimefam]

Ummm. Not sure you realize this but what else can they do with their money?? They cant have a bank account, cant own a home, or buy a new car, and cannot even rent in most places. What are they going to do?? stick it under their mattress so that when they get deported they lose it all?? no they send it back to their country so that if they get deported they have built themselves a little nest egg which in many of those countries goes a pretty good way. You want to solve these problems? vote for my plan in this thread No seriously call your congressman and you give him or her ideas. Back when immigrations was not the hot topic that it is today and illegals felt more secure we didn't have these massive remittances, sure money was sent back but at a much lower percentage. Look at miami for instance, cubans flooded that city except since we hate fidel we allow all the cubans who set foot in this country to instantly become permanant residents. Today miami is a thriving city who has historically been strong financially. Yes they continue to send money and supplies to cuba but in relatively small quantities.

[96Qowner]

I was just shocked at the numbers - some $25 Billion/yr, wowza!

And second only to oil exports for Mexico's foreign income.

That's 2.8% of Mexico's entire GDP of $893 Billion last year!

Average income per capita in Mexico is roughly $6500. That $25 Billion is $1000 per capita, so remittances are 15% of Mexico's per capita income!

Not insignificant.

[AZhitman]

They cant have a bank accountcant own a homebuy a new carcannot even rent in most places

Not true. No citizenship requirement to open a bank account.

Not true. In fact, non-citizens represent much of the current foreclosure situation.

Not true. No citizenship requirement to buy a new car.

Not true. In fact there's a LINE of attorneys waiting to pounce on a landlord who refuses to rent to an illegal.

[Jimefam]

you need a social to do any of those. Except for some apartment complexes.

[AZhitman]

Getting a SSN is as simple as paying $100 for a false number on the street.

Renting is renting... "some apt complexes" can't do things any different than the rest. They're all beholden to the same oversight.

My point is, citizenship is not required to do ANY of those things.

[Jimefam]

what good is a fake Ssn to get credit? How do you figure they get homes and all that?

[96Qowner]

A 30 second Google search:

Across the country, particularly in Texas and parts of the Midwest, hundreds of illegal immigrants have bought homes using special lending programs that bypass the need for a Social Security number. Now, with backing from some of the country’s largest financial institutions, this newest effort to tap customers for the real estate market is moving to the nation’s largest concentration of illegal immigrants – California.

http://articles.latimes.com/20...ouse9

Part of Dodd's and Frank's grand plan for Fannie and Freddie, I suppose.

[C-Kwik]

Going back to the original topic, my speculation is that many illegals here aren't here because they know somebody. It would seem more likely that the majority of the illegals are here by means of deception (faking their identity) or by sneaking across the border. I think the group of illegals that you speak of are smaller in number. Frankly, I doubt those who have the need to risk so much to cross the border have the means to get here legally. And if they legitimately cross the border, then they are likely more easily tracked if desired since they'll likely have a sponsor (I don't fully understand this process, but it does require some work on my mom's end when she has her family visit from Korea). Of course, its unlikely immigration will actively pursue such individuals without pressing cause.

Frankly, if we want to slow illegal immigration, we have to give them no reason to be here. Making it hard on them might slow it some, but ultimately, if the demand still exists, then they do to. Especially if the conditions and income is still much better than at "home". The first thing that pops into my mind is artificially high wages (i.e minimum wage, perhaps union jobs).

[AZhitman]

what good is a fake Ssn to get credit? How do you figure they get homes and all that?

Dude.

Seriously, you need to come to AZ and see it.

I posted months ago about a HUGE investigation I completed in which someone was selling matching birth cert's and SS cards for big money... It's now been ratcheted up to the Feds (DHS) to handle.

Don't take this wrong, but you're in GA. Not much of an "illegals" issue there. I grew up in AL / MS, and remember when the first Mexican restaurant popped up in our town, LOL.