I got a "Top Kill" for ya...

[UpStar]

I think the only hope we have is for a cat6 hurricane to come through and suck it all up and dump it over racist Alabama.

Your colossal ignorance never ceases to amaze me.

Ignorance? If I recall correctly, it was your ignorance that topped the charts and showed true on Nov 4th 2008, so please refrain from calling ones words ignorance. Now back to to the topic of BP.

[AZhitman]

Any time you want to compare posts, Sunshine, just toss your hat in the ring... Bring a helmet, I don't 'play nice', and I have little tolerance for weakly-defended positions.

Oh, I get it - You're referencing the date your Moronic Messiah was elected.

As I type this, I'm listening to his podcast, in which he's blathering nonsense about "making the Gulf better than it was" (suuuuuure, whatever) and using this tragedy as a springboard to regurgitate his hopey-changey campaign speech bullcrap about clean energy (which we've been pursuing since the 50's).

The campaign is over, BO. STFU and start delivering.

What a boob.

[IBCoupe]

Eh, you're both wrong-headed.

[AZhitman]

Quiet, you.

At least you engage in intellectual defense of your position. UpChuck does these "drive-by" snipes where he drops a turd post and bails for a month.

[IBCoupe]

Yeah, that can be particularly annoying. I might do that over on the other forums from time to time. There isn't much discourse to be had, but if ever one gets the urge to feel smug and superior (and be right about it), it's always there.

[stebo0728]

Ok off topic slightly, but this is a neat read, regarding what may unfold should a hurricane churn through the middle of this slick...

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMa ... rynum=1492

[UpStar]

Any time you want to compare posts, Sunshine, just toss your hat in the ring... Bring a helmet, I don't 'play nice', and I have little tolerance for weakly-defended positions.

Oh, I get it - You're referencing the date your Moronic Messiah was elected.

Not exactly. Im talking about the post you made saying "Mark my words he will not be president" <---Thats verbadim and probably the most ignorant and uneducated remark made in my opinion. I wish the search function worked like it use to,but it really doesnt matter. We all have those ignorant moments Lets keep the talk BP. No need for a pissing contest, plus I dont visit enough here to stay on top of the conversations. Sorry My point was simple...check yourself before calling someone elses comments ignorant. Of course I dont want to see oil spilled on Alabama. I was being callous(sp), but maybe you were too ignorant to see that

[audtatious]

Rub in what you can cuz the Gregster is right 95%+ of the time. He and others didn't realize how ignorant others were in believing that hopey changy stuff.

[BusyBadger]

Far be it from me to gloat, but does anyone who voted for this charlatan remember him (and his followers) REPEATEDLY slinging poo at Bush during his campaign for his supposed "mishandling" of the Hurricane Katrina disaster?

Funny that you should mention this.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0610/38246.html

And Stebo, you're on the money about drilling in shallow(er) water. If this well weren't so deep it would have been capped long ago. Divers from the French diving company Comex have done dives as deep as 1700ft in open water and one diver performed a simulated dive (in a hyperbaric chamber) of 2300ft using a mixed gas developed by Comex.

Then there's the troubling issue of the administration's refusal and and now acceptance of foreign aid.

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2010/ ... str_28.php

My guess would be PBO's support of protectionism through the Jones Act. And I'd be willing to bet that the noly reason that he's doing a 180 on the foreign aid bit is that this is now catching some press (and more than likely adding to his already deplorable numbers). Ah, there's nothing like running your administration by which way the winds are blowing. And on a side-note, Homeland Security suspended the Jones Act after Katrina for ships bringing in oil & natural gas.

[audtatious]

Obama has a magic area he visits to help make decisions.....Internet polls on CNN or MSNBC

[IBCoupe]

It's hard to compare the two (Katrina/BP). There were drastically different political climates (ask for opinion on the government's performance on anything in 2005 and 2010). And the actual facts are different: a hurricane tracked for days before it hit Louisiana, and an explosion off the coast. With Katrina, we had complications between who was actually responsible and who was actually authorized by the structure of our government to help out in New Orleans. With BP, the law that went into effect after Exxon Valdez was so heavily lobbied that it was neutered to begin with, and then what little effect it was designed to have was negated by an unwillingness to implement its provisions.

Once again, I have to ask those who say the government isn't doing enough: obviously, you perceive that there's something the government should be doing that it isn't... what is that thing?

[AZhitman]

He's screwing the pooch in so many ways on this...

"Pumping it up" and comparing this to 9/11... NOT cool. Assuring the residents of the Gulf states that it'll be "better than it was" before the spill... simply foolish (and pandering to the emotional base). Refusing foreign assistance (remember, Bush suspended the Jones Act when it was truly needed)... bad idea. Patting BP on the back for being "ahead of schedule"? Simply stupid (I can't describe it any other way). Flip-flopping on offshore drilling (repeatedly)... reactionary and shows a real lack of dedication to a position.

Speech yesterday was pathetic and off-topic. Why does he always sound like he's campaigning? You're the POTUS, dummy - Now show some leadership.

It's about time the media quit giving this guy a free pass.

[IBCoupe]

Well, for someone who was just complaining about hopey-changeyness, a lot of that list sounds pretty fluffy.

I'm not entirely sure what suspending the Jones Act would do, in this case. Is the problem really that we don't have the manpower to address the problem? In Katrina, it was far more necessary - an entire region had been literally shut down. I mean, there's a clear distinction between utter infrastructure devastation and an (admittedly of a size completely unprecedented for accidents) oil spill. President Bush was correct in suspending the Jones Act, but he wasn't quick to do it, either. Maybe he wasn't quick to do it for some reasons, and it's those same reasons (coupled with the absence of a clear benefit) that's keeping President Obama from doing it at all.

And while President Obama's stance on offshore drilling might be frustratingly unclear, it doesn't really affect the actual spill in question, does it?

[AZhitman]

No, it doesn't affect the spill at all. However, it clearly indicates a lack of commitment to a position when that position (which affects the entire economy, and especially the economy of the Gulf residents) changes willy-nilly with the tides. Our economy is in such great shape that we can just stop drilling for 6 months because of one incident? Really?

Don't even get me started on his "whose a** to kick" comment. This, from a guy whose entire platform was a rejection of confrontation and inflexibility, and a supposed commitment to diplomacy and "open discourse"? Please. Spare us the tough talk, Harvard-boy. You're kicking NO ONE'S a**.

JUST LEAD. Quit mollycoddling BP and praising them for being "ahead of schedule", DEMAND transparency (*), take care of the people in the Gulf whose livelihood is permanently damaged, and focus on bringing all resources to bear on stopping the damn leak instead of looking to lay blame. There will be time for all that.

(*) Security guards blocking access to certain sites and personnel, workers stating they're not allowed to discuss the cleanup effort, and Gestapo-like tactics of limiting journalistic access to areas most affected by the spill.

[WDRacing]

Fact Check

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100616/ap_ ... fact_check

I think the people writing his speeches are running out of ways to put a fluffy BS glaze on everything

[AZhitman]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100616/ap_ ... fact_check

Ouch.

Let's not ignore the act that nearly 2 months has passed since the explosion, and much of that time was marked by inaction.

Then again, what can we expect from a man who allows certain portions of the Fed to simply refuse to do their jobs (ICE, anyone?)

[IBCoupe]

...and much of that time was marked by inaction.

This is a convenient complaint, but I'm not convinced it's the truth. Every timeline I've seen shows action taken by the administration day 1.

Once again: what wasn't the administration doing that it should have been? It's okay not to have an answer to that question - I'm no expert at oil spill cleanups, either. But it's not okay to not have an answer to it and to simultaneously claim that they're not doing enough. You can't say, "they could be doing more, but I don't know what that is." I mean, you can say it (and you might even be objectively correct), but it's not very persuasive.

I'm sorry if I'm being somewhat of a killjoy on this Obama-bash, but I'm just not impressed by arguments that focus on meaningless crap.

And I'm sorry if that came across as rude.

[AZhitman]

Nothing rude about it - Gota have a divergent POV or else, as you said, it becomes a bashfest.

I'm admittedly no expert on the topic either, so to demand a detailed account of "what should have been done" is likewise inappropriate... But, as you say, it doesn't make for a very persuasive position, and I'll concede that point. Well done.

However, as I'm not one to back down from a challenge, I'll take a crack at it:

1) 29 days after the explosion, the White House was still insisting that "BP employees have the technical expertise to plug the hole" and it "is their responsibility." I believe this was WHPS Robert Gibbs.

25 May 2010: Amid growing popular anger over BP’s disastrous response to the gulf coast oil spill, the Obama administration came to the company’s defense on Monday, while again rejecting any federal takeover of the response.

Coast Guard Commandant Thad Allen defended BP’s actions at a White House press conference on Monday, calling them “rational.” Allen said that he could not see any reason why the federal government should take over the response to the oil spill. Allen said that he was “satisfied with the coordination that is going on,” and that BP is “exhausting every technical response” to the leak. He added that “There’s no reason to make a change” to the official response to the oil spill. When asked to clarify whether BP or the US government was in charge of the cleanup, Allen said that the two were working in “partnership.”

2) Approximately 45 days passed before BO found time in his busy schedule (lol) to speak with the head of BP. Really? 45 days?

3) IIRC, the Administration immediately approved BP's oil spill response plan, without reading it / analyzing it / determining that it really, really sucks. My 13-year old could find the glaring problems with it.

4) For three weeks, on CNN, I've watched Gov Jindal and Parish Pres Nungasser( sp?) plead and beg for Federal assistance to protect their coastlines. Plans to build sand barriers to block the oil were stalled for WEEKS while this Administration fumbled in the dark.

How's that? Can I go back to bashing now?

[stebo0728]

5) Not to mention the Dutch had a fleet of skimmers ready to go, with miles of boom. We said thanks, but we got this ... WTH?

Heres the deal I am realizing. The big government left is not comfortable seizing control of immediate disasters. They prefer to take control of slow creeping disasters. Government failure at handling immediate disasters is unavoidably obvious, but the slow, over time disasters fly right under the radar.

[AZhitman]

...and again, don't get me wrong - I would be completely lost managing such an overwhelming crisis. But that's the mantle a POTUS works towards and accepts responsibility for.

I'd have been FAR less critical had the Lefties not lambasted and vilified Bush for his handling of Katrina (completely unpreventable), a tragedy made worse by the inaction and ball-dropping of the city's and state's leaders. Remember, LA wasn't the only state affected by Katrina - but they were the only ones blaming the Feds for their predicament.

[stebo0728]

LOL, so true, MS got hit the worst, I have family there, and witnessed the devastation first hand, much worse than a little water that hit the big easy ... but then the big easy is the area full of the gimme whiney crowd ... lets see, location sitting under sea level, near the ocean, sounds rational to you? Granted the big easy was not under sea level when it was built, but there was plenty prevention that could have been done, and wasnt. Anyway, the difference that most people dont get here is in jurisdiction. Bush acted faster and did more to help a crisis that was not his responsibility to fix, it was the States responsibilities. With this spill, the job falls on the executive of the nation, POTUS. Its as if he is afraid to put his hands on it so as to not look bad when the true ramifications start to come out, but rather maybe BP, or maybe the actualy owners Trans Ocean, will look bad. Just boils down to a bad chess move, and I think we are about to witness a "queen swap" in this gentlemens game.

[AZhitman]

Agreed. POTUS can't simply point to the states in this case, since it's off-shore.

Then again, like I said before, this is an Administration that has NO problem blatantly refusing to do the jobs that taxpayers PAY them to do (i.e. processing / deporting legitimately detained illegal immigrants).

IIRC, Bush sent the US military to LA to assist in the humanitarian effort (including one of our very own Moderators, who can attest to the scale of deployed assistance in the area).

BTW, Carville and Matthews, both notorious Obama lapdogs, and both much more well-versed than me, have levied their own criticisms... Perhaps I don't *need* to be an expert on what should be done. If these two aren't happy with their "Chosen One", why should I be? http://www.politico.com/news/stories/05 ... z0om46RhGH

[stebo0728]

Heres the real deal ... Barack Obama = Jimmy Carter, Deep Horizon = Iran Contra, and both economies are looking about the same, so my earnest hope is that whoever takes over in 2012 will have the vision inspired by Reagan.

[IBCoupe]

Got a meeting in 20 minutes, let's see what I can do.

As far as BP having the responsibility to clean it up:
If we can agree, for the sake of argument, that they didn't have the responsibility to clean it up, that the federal government did, what happens differently? I mean, in recent days, thee government has taken more control over the situation, but that control appears to only manifest itself in calls to BP saying, "Hurry up." The Federal Government doesn't have anything in its arsenal that can address the physical concerns. BP does. So, while we can fault President Obama for stating that BP had full responsibility for the clean up, it's only his words that we're faulting him for. Seems like fluff to me, again.

Meeting with the BP chief:
It's doubtful that this was the first communication between BP officials and government officials on this matter. Whether the two heads of their respective organizations get together doesn't really matter if the underlings (Coast Guard and whatever BP division is being used, for example) are already well-underway.

Immediate approval:
There's a legitimate complaint here. Maybe the government should have taken a closer look at what they were approving. However, the longer the government takes to approve an emergency action, the more it looks like the government is worsening the situation. Was there really a winning strategy (politically- or environmentally-speaking) available on this one?

Sand Barriers & Pleading:
The Coast Guard was involved from Day 1. I know this to be true.
And the latest interviews I've heard state that those sand barriers will accomplish nothing in the long-run, so maybe there's cause for consideration and delay. Is this the other side of the "immediate approval" coin? Are you damning the administration for both doing and don'ting?

[audtatious]

Things will be better now that Michael R. Bromwich is the oil czar.....Dunno what a lawyer knows about oil cleanups tho.

[AZhitman]

Honestly, my "damning" is for the failure to be open, honest and transparent.

If he had come on TV and said, "Look. We don't know how to fix this. We can't FORCE BP to do a damn thing. They can tell us to take a hike, and we can do nothing outside of legal action. We're flying blind here, America. This is gonna impact the Gulf states for decades, if not more. We're not going to make any rash promises. We're going to do what we can, but there's no guarantee of success. The good news is, aside from the 11 tragic deaths on the DW rig, there haven't been any further human casualties. This isn't 9/11, but it IS devastating in other ways. We're consulting with experts, we're open to suggestions, and I call upon Americans to help out any way you can. I'm not going to ramble on about the evils of petroleum, nor am I going to further jeopardize the Gulf states' economies by messing with current drilling. Now, if you'll excuse me, I've gotta go make sure everyone has the tools and resources they need. BRB."

...I'd have been a lot less critical.

1) The Feds didn't have anything in their arsenal to run a car company, either. But they wasted no time bailing out and assuming "control" on paper of GM.

2) I'll concede that. But appearances are everything, and he should have met with the BP COO, if only to assert his position and show the US (and BP) that we're not playing around.

3) Maybe, maybe not. I'm from the B.F.H. (bigger effin hammer) school of thought, and I'm not entirely opposed to the "Do Something, Even if it's Wrong" position.

4) "Involved" is a White House spin word. They were aware and apprised, but that's it. Second-guessing sand barriers isn't the job of the Administration. Experts said they'd work, they had the people and equipment in place, yet they couldn't get authorization. No HARM would be done, and it's real easy to look back and say, "Well, we didn't do it because it might not have worked." No. Besides, who cares if they'd have been beneficial "in the long run"? They might have bought some time.

(Side note on #4: You and I are out to dinner. In the middle of your tofuburger, you have a heart attack. I refrain from performing CPR, and you die. How's it gonna look if I say, later, "Well, I heard CPR only works like 19% of the time, so I decided to wait for a better alternative.")

Good work. Have a great meeting. Stay away from the tofuburger.

[IBCoupe]

My point with #4 was that it's a stark contrast to your complaint in #3. Consider your BFH school of thought with my tofuburger. So, you see me fall to the floor after eating it, and someone yells, "Try CPR!" You say, "OKAY!" and perform CPR. I die anyways, 'cause it turned out I was choking and the heimlich would have been more helpful. Did the CPR hurt? Not by itself. Did it help? Definitely not. If you hadn't been doing the CPR, might you have been able to take a reasoned approach and do the heimlich, instead? Maybe.

So the feds were wrong for willy-nilly approval of BP's plans, and they were wrong for failing to provide willy-nilly approval of State plans? This is a pretty high standard to set for any organization, [sarcasm] even one as entirely perfect as the Federal Government. [/sarcasm]

[audtatious]

So the feds were wrong for willy-nilly approval of BP's plans, and they were wrong for failing to provide willy-nilly approval of State plans? This is a pretty high standard to set for any organization, [sarcasm] even one as entirely perfect as the Federal Government. [/sarcasm]

Yet that is the very position that Obama has put himself ever since running for President. The current Dem motto seems to be "Gov can fix all" and they have been running things that way.

[IBCoupe]

The government hasn't placed those internal standards into AZ's mind. Unless the CIA was involved; then that might be a plausible theory.

[AZhitman]

Actually, they have. See, I listened to the campaign promises. I even found myself believing some of them. And, for the good of all, I hoped he'd be right. As an Investigator, I listen carefully to what people say, and hold them to their words.

See, I believe that "Words Mean Things" (Copyright © 1999 By Ray Thomas). I'm a firm proponent of "say what you mean, and mean what you say". That applies to everyone, from the POTUS to the guy who takes my order at Burger King. Tell me what you're going to do, then do it. Nothing more, nothing less, and then no one has to make excuses for underdelivering or explain how they were "misunderstood". Likewise, I then have no leg to stand on, if I choose to complain later.

If they were foregoing CPR, with the intent of evaluating and considering the ramifications of doing the Heimlich, then I'd be on board. They weren't.

Oh, and you didn't choke. I was a Boy Scout - I know the difference.