Kaizo never register's the car as a kit car bc its not a car. YOU (the buyer) register the car (assuming you want it for something other than use it 4 a tree house or stage prop).
A 1953 Mercury was mass produced. So was a 67 Ford. Both have an orriginal VIN. I can go to the junkyard and strap a car together with the ford engine and mercury chasis (and misc spare parts from both and from other random cars) and get it titled and registered as a specially built car, can't I? Of course! That 53 Merc cannot have a 1953 Mercury VIN # anymore, cuz it's not .... it doesn't get a Ford VIN# just because there's Ford bits in it either. it gets a new VIN #. It's not a 53 Merc, it's a frankenstein that was home built. ....A specially built car
As to whether or not Kaizo can sell the Unibody legally as a car part, I think you guys will be surprised when the dust settles.
Modified by mikeolla at 5:21 PM 6/5/2009
Modified by mikeolla at 5:23 PM 6/5/2009
How would you go about building a unibody from kaizo industries?
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themadscientist
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Re: (mikeolla)
The "car" is the chassis so it would still be a mercury. Real kit cars were built by their manufacturer and truly fit the title. This is a Skyline, taken apart and then pawned off as a kit. If I take a Mustang, take it apart and then try to sell the shell as a "kit car" it would make as much sense. I'm surprised Nissan hasn't come down on Kaizo. Ford is suing people for taking pictures of their own cars for calenders. Kaizo is saying a car Nissan built is their creation....As it is, they are basically swapping VINs, which is a felony. If the government decides to interpret it the same way then a lot of people are going to be out a lot of money and a few people are going to jail.
Re: (themadscientist)
ok, the car IS the chassis and it's a Merc. I got you.
What about a car frame I find in a junkyard that is so old and rusted I can't tell what the hell it is? It has no VIN# to be found. It's a hunk of rusty metal, but clearly used to be a US production car. I pull out my hammer, blowtorch, english wheel and fashion it into something that rolls around on wheels. Then I stick a Datsun drivetrain in it. Is it a Datsun? No. Is the thing a Merc or whatever the orriginal unidentifiable chassis is? I don't know what the hell it is! I can call it anything I want.
Even though I cannot define it, I can still get that thing titled and drive it legally on the road. No one will come and seize it. Many states would infact (rightly or wrongly) title that as a specially built car. No? Just look at all those Rat Rods. How come lots of folks always drive those around?
Whether they're going through a loophole or not, the Kaizo unibody (when it enters the US) is essentially just metal. US customs cleared the thing and by definition it is car parts (no drivetrain, etc)! Just a hunk of metal that used to be a car.... like the nameless rusty frame in the junkyard. When Kaizo gets done with it, it's one step up from just metal (parts). It's a US DOT compliant unibody frame which is suitable for the US roads.
If it wasn't considered car parts, then how come customs cleared it as car parts and let the thing in?
If a guy can legally build, title and drive a motor vehicle made of rusty cars from various manufacturers, then why can I not build my own vehicle from car parts that are certified by customs as car parts?
Even if I couldnt make the rat rod street legal in my state, that doesn't mean it's against the law to build it, or own it... or track it. It's a home built car made from junk parts. My GTR is a home built car made from parts that the government already deemed as PARTS when they went through customs. Kaizo makes those parts so they are compliant with US laws (much more so than strapping tin together), which is why you can take it one step further than a rat rod and actually get the thing registered in most places (should you decide to use it for that).
If i extend the roofline of my Kaizo unibody and throw an extra row of seats in it, now it's a Stagea if I want to call it that. Have I now illegally imported a Nissan Stagea??? No, I don't think so! Call it a Skyline replica or Stagea replica? who cares! It's a home made car.
Modified by mikeolla at 8:02 PM 6/5/2009
What about a car frame I find in a junkyard that is so old and rusted I can't tell what the hell it is? It has no VIN# to be found. It's a hunk of rusty metal, but clearly used to be a US production car. I pull out my hammer, blowtorch, english wheel and fashion it into something that rolls around on wheels. Then I stick a Datsun drivetrain in it. Is it a Datsun? No. Is the thing a Merc or whatever the orriginal unidentifiable chassis is? I don't know what the hell it is! I can call it anything I want.
Even though I cannot define it, I can still get that thing titled and drive it legally on the road. No one will come and seize it. Many states would infact (rightly or wrongly) title that as a specially built car. No? Just look at all those Rat Rods. How come lots of folks always drive those around?
Whether they're going through a loophole or not, the Kaizo unibody (when it enters the US) is essentially just metal. US customs cleared the thing and by definition it is car parts (no drivetrain, etc)! Just a hunk of metal that used to be a car.... like the nameless rusty frame in the junkyard. When Kaizo gets done with it, it's one step up from just metal (parts). It's a US DOT compliant unibody frame which is suitable for the US roads.
If it wasn't considered car parts, then how come customs cleared it as car parts and let the thing in?
If a guy can legally build, title and drive a motor vehicle made of rusty cars from various manufacturers, then why can I not build my own vehicle from car parts that are certified by customs as car parts?
Even if I couldnt make the rat rod street legal in my state, that doesn't mean it's against the law to build it, or own it... or track it. It's a home built car made from junk parts. My GTR is a home built car made from parts that the government already deemed as PARTS when they went through customs. Kaizo makes those parts so they are compliant with US laws (much more so than strapping tin together), which is why you can take it one step further than a rat rod and actually get the thing registered in most places (should you decide to use it for that).
If i extend the roofline of my Kaizo unibody and throw an extra row of seats in it, now it's a Stagea if I want to call it that. Have I now illegally imported a Nissan Stagea??? No, I don't think so! Call it a Skyline replica or Stagea replica? who cares! It's a home made car.
Modified by mikeolla at 8:02 PM 6/5/2009
Re: (themadscientist)
I don't agree that Kaizo is trying to say that a car Nissan built is their creation.
I think it's accurate to say that car parts (a bare frame is not considered a car) which came from a nissan and have been modified to make a DOT compliant chasis, complete with VIN#, is their creation.
I think it's accurate to say that car parts (a bare frame is not considered a car) which came from a nissan and have been modified to make a DOT compliant chasis, complete with VIN#, is their creation.
Re: (AZhitman)
Yes, but pulling everything out of the Nissan so that it's a bare frame (b4 importing) makes it a non-Nissan. That equals car parts, not a car.... and hence, not a Nissan.
...and I doubt anyone would argue that simply importing car parts is anything but perfectly legal.
...and I doubt anyone would argue that simply importing car parts is anything but perfectly legal.
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themadscientist
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Re: (mikeolla)
you continue to dance with semantics. Federal agents aren't interested in your interpretation, what they decide it is is what it is. It's a Nissan. Nissan built the shell, it's a Nissan. I don't care if you drill out all the spot welds, carry the various unibody sections to the four corners of the world and hire Lara Croft to find the pieces and bring them back together. It was built by Nissan originally. It's a Nissan.This is like watching Bill Clinton try to carefully and beneficially define "is."
An example of how a component can be legal in and of itself can be seen in the gun world. You can own a short barreled upper receiver which is shorter than legal. IF you are not in possession of a lower receiver that could be used to create a complete short-barreled, and illegal rifle. Even having the parts, even if you had no intention of putting them together will get you charged.
Switchblades are also illegal, but, companies will send you a "kit." This is legal, but the minute you put it together, you have just broken the law. Clever interpretation of the law can really get one in deep doo doo and is not a good idea when talking about the monetary investment one would make assembling a Skyline in the manner Kaizo is suggesting.
The Skyline shell is still a Skyline shell, Kaizo can call it a tuna sandwich on wheat, but it doesn't change that fact. As a "part," it's not illegal. The minute you assemble it into a running car you just broke the law. Whether you put the RB26 in it or not, it just stopped being a "part," and became a "car."
This is why you can't tear the car apart and ship all the parts in the same container; customs will seize it.
Kaizo has swapped the VIN in actuality when they register it as a kit car when it actually isn't. It isn't quite as bad as if you brought in a Silvia, cut the VIN out and welded in the VIN from a 240; that's complete fraud and felonious. But the shell has an original VIN that has been masked by application of a new designation, that's sketchy at best.
If Kaizo did what some companies have done and actually manufacture the unibody. That mean actually make it, not "re manufacture" a shell Nissan built, even if it was the exact dimensions of a Skyline, it would truly be a kit car.
An example of how a component can be legal in and of itself can be seen in the gun world. You can own a short barreled upper receiver which is shorter than legal. IF you are not in possession of a lower receiver that could be used to create a complete short-barreled, and illegal rifle. Even having the parts, even if you had no intention of putting them together will get you charged.
Switchblades are also illegal, but, companies will send you a "kit." This is legal, but the minute you put it together, you have just broken the law. Clever interpretation of the law can really get one in deep doo doo and is not a good idea when talking about the monetary investment one would make assembling a Skyline in the manner Kaizo is suggesting.
The Skyline shell is still a Skyline shell, Kaizo can call it a tuna sandwich on wheat, but it doesn't change that fact. As a "part," it's not illegal. The minute you assemble it into a running car you just broke the law. Whether you put the RB26 in it or not, it just stopped being a "part," and became a "car."
This is why you can't tear the car apart and ship all the parts in the same container; customs will seize it.
Kaizo has swapped the VIN in actuality when they register it as a kit car when it actually isn't. It isn't quite as bad as if you brought in a Silvia, cut the VIN out and welded in the VIN from a 240; that's complete fraud and felonious. But the shell has an original VIN that has been masked by application of a new designation, that's sketchy at best.
If Kaizo did what some companies have done and actually manufacture the unibody. That mean actually make it, not "re manufacture" a shell Nissan built, even if it was the exact dimensions of a Skyline, it would truly be a kit car.
Re: (themadscientist)
There are exceptions. There are legal skylines and legal switchblades. I'm sure youve seen some of the non spring activated, one-handed folders that are out there. As fast as an italian switchblade, but legal due to one little loophole. Call it a switchblade or don't. It is what is.
This is not like switching VIN's! There's a whole lot more to it than that.Aren't there "rebuilt" titles? Like if a car is salvaged? exceptions to the rule? Is it really so impossible to believe that someone has "cracked the nut", as someone put it?
Modified by mikeolla at 12:38 AM 6/6/2009
This is not like switching VIN's! There's a whole lot more to it than that.Aren't there "rebuilt" titles? Like if a car is salvaged? exceptions to the rule? Is it really so impossible to believe that someone has "cracked the nut", as someone put it?
Modified by mikeolla at 12:38 AM 6/6/2009
Re: (themadscientist)
u say, the minute you assemble it into a running car you just broke the law.
Am i breaking the law if I put a VW bug engine in the rear? That's a running car. If I made it into an assembled, running electric car, would that also be breaking the law?
How about if I made it propeller driven? Is that assembling it into a Nissan Skyline?
If I make it seaworthy, am I breaking the law? Why couldn't I build my own Skyline aqucar? Anyway. I guess we'll see what happens. If I am wrong, I think I still have some options. Like I said, Australia
Am i breaking the law if I put a VW bug engine in the rear? That's a running car. If I made it into an assembled, running electric car, would that also be breaking the law?
How about if I made it propeller driven? Is that assembling it into a Nissan Skyline?
If I make it seaworthy, am I breaking the law? Why couldn't I build my own Skyline aqucar? Anyway. I guess we'll see what happens. If I am wrong, I think I still have some options. Like I said, Australia
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themadscientist
- Posts: 26254
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Re: (mikeolla)
Do the bug engine. Only so you can piss off the purists.
When I say I want a 2JZ power R32 GT-R ooooh, the hatred.
When I say I want a 2JZ power R32 GT-R ooooh, the hatred.
Re: (themadscientist)
They already have a blue Kaizo GTR 34 with the VW bug engine in the trunk which they used for F&F4 movie.
It's really quite diturbing to see the thing run, but it does!
If i find the pick I will post it.
As for me, I'm ditching the Volk TE37's and attaching pontoons, so I can float the thing.... only kidding
It's really quite diturbing to see the thing run, but it does!
If i find the pick I will post it.
As for me, I'm ditching the Volk TE37's and attaching pontoons, so I can float the thing.... only kidding
Re: (themadscientist)
In any case, I have definately found our conversations to be informative. I hope I have contributed something positive to the Nico community. Sorry I called you a Nazi, TMS.
I am about as passionate about GTR's as someone can possibly get! I'm willing to pick up and relocate my whole life, just so I can drive my GTR. I came here out of anger, but hope I have made some new friends.
In the end, we all love these cars, and I feel that instead of slamming Kaizo all the time, you should should applaud their resoucefulness, ingenuity, and thier determination to bring these cars over. There may be some question as to just how much of a grey area this is, but without them, no one in the US has any chance in hell of legalizing one! It is unfair to put them in the same category as other unscrupulous operations.
If Kaizo cars wind up being illegal, it's not because they didn't make every single possible attempt to comply with the law. Therein lies the difference between Kaizo and the rest of the posers. To me, Kaizo is 100% legit, and in the end, will be proven to be 100% legit.
Modified by mikeolla at 4:24 PM 6/6/2009
Modified by mikeolla at 9:26 PM 6/6/2009
Modified by mikeolla at 9:29 PM 6/6/2009
I am about as passionate about GTR's as someone can possibly get! I'm willing to pick up and relocate my whole life, just so I can drive my GTR. I came here out of anger, but hope I have made some new friends.
In the end, we all love these cars, and I feel that instead of slamming Kaizo all the time, you should should applaud their resoucefulness, ingenuity, and thier determination to bring these cars over. There may be some question as to just how much of a grey area this is, but without them, no one in the US has any chance in hell of legalizing one! It is unfair to put them in the same category as other unscrupulous operations.
If Kaizo cars wind up being illegal, it's not because they didn't make every single possible attempt to comply with the law. Therein lies the difference between Kaizo and the rest of the posers. To me, Kaizo is 100% legit, and in the end, will be proven to be 100% legit.
Modified by mikeolla at 4:24 PM 6/6/2009
Modified by mikeolla at 9:26 PM 6/6/2009
Modified by mikeolla at 9:29 PM 6/6/2009
Re: (mikeolla)
mikeolla wrote:There are exceptions. There are legal skylines and legal switchblades. I'm sure youve seen some of the non spring activated, one-handed folders that are out there. As fast as an italian switchblade, but legal due to one little loophole. Call it a switchblade or don't. It is what is.
This is not like switching VIN's! There's a whole lot more to it than that.Aren't there "rebuilt" titles? Like if a car is salvaged? exceptions to the rule? Is it really so impossible to believe that someone has "cracked the nut", as someone put it?
Theoretically speaking ...if you were on the US dock, watching a Kaizo unibody enter the US as car parts... and were suddenly able to turn back the hands of time (stay with me here) in order to see the origin of where the unibody was manufactured, what you would see is the following:
The origin of the unibody is at its Japanese manufacturer.... that manufacturer is Kaizo. Not Nissan. Isn't it so, that Kaizo is not a mass producer of automobiles? Of course it is!Therefore, it is my opinion that the "once a Nissan, always a Nissan" argument fails here. ...and so does the argument about "once a car is mass produced, you cant use those parts to make a kit" fail here, in my opinion.
See? It's not so cut and dry, is it? There can be exceptions. Can't there?
Modified by mikeolla at 12:38 AM 6/6/2009
Re: (nismodave187)
Even in Japan, it is my opinion that a Kaizo unibody is officially a non-Nissan, non-car. Its a part.
Re: (mikeolla)
Another way the "once a Nissan, always a Nissan" argument is unsatisfactory in my opinion, is in the case of Ruff.
You can say "a Porsche is a Porsche, no matter what", all you want. However, not everyone agrees. Alois Ruff certainly doesn't. ....and I haven't ever seen anyone accuse him of switching a Porsche VIN# for his own!
All his interior stuff, LED's, etc. also look as if they've been simply transplanted from a real Porsche! Call it whatever you want. ....a Ruff, a loophole, or a rough loophole.... even a Ruff loophole! I call it an exception to the rule!
Hell, you can even pronounce it Ruf instead of Roof! It still has it's own VIN, just like Gemballa.
It's an exception to the rule. Just as when we learn chess, we learn the pawn only moves 2 squares on the first move and only one square at a time after that. After playing awhile, we learn the "en passant" rule, where a pawn takes "in passing". Pull that move on a someone who never heard of that rule and they'll be like "HEY DUDE YOU TOTALLY CHEATED!!!!!" ...fact is, it's a legal move that many players are not familiar with. It is nonetheless a legal move!
Again, my wierd hypothetical time travel story....
Theoretically, ...if you were on the US dock, watching a Kaizo unibody enter the US as car parts... and were suddenly able to turn back the hands of time in order to trace the unibody part and see the origin of where the unibody was manufactured, what you would see is the following:
The origin of the unibody is at its Japanese manufacturer.... that manufacturer is Kaizo. Not Nissan.
Modified by mikeolla at 7:58 AM 6/7/2009
You can say "a Porsche is a Porsche, no matter what", all you want. However, not everyone agrees. Alois Ruff certainly doesn't. ....and I haven't ever seen anyone accuse him of switching a Porsche VIN# for his own!
All his interior stuff, LED's, etc. also look as if they've been simply transplanted from a real Porsche! Call it whatever you want. ....a Ruff, a loophole, or a rough loophole.... even a Ruff loophole! I call it an exception to the rule!
Hell, you can even pronounce it Ruf instead of Roof! It still has it's own VIN, just like Gemballa.
It's an exception to the rule. Just as when we learn chess, we learn the pawn only moves 2 squares on the first move and only one square at a time after that. After playing awhile, we learn the "en passant" rule, where a pawn takes "in passing". Pull that move on a someone who never heard of that rule and they'll be like "HEY DUDE YOU TOTALLY CHEATED!!!!!" ...fact is, it's a legal move that many players are not familiar with. It is nonetheless a legal move!
Again, my wierd hypothetical time travel story....
Theoretically, ...if you were on the US dock, watching a Kaizo unibody enter the US as car parts... and were suddenly able to turn back the hands of time in order to trace the unibody part and see the origin of where the unibody was manufactured, what you would see is the following:
The origin of the unibody is at its Japanese manufacturer.... that manufacturer is Kaizo. Not Nissan.
Modified by mikeolla at 7:58 AM 6/7/2009
Re: (mikeolla)
I also feel that putting an LS1 in a Kaizo unibody makes the whole grey area a very black and white issue.
Additionally, an extremely compelling legal argument can be made for putting an RB26 in a US car. I can put an RB26 in a Vette, can't I? I may get struck by lightning, but it's perfectly legal.
Is the Nissan RB26DETT motor an outlaw motor or something? I very, very, very highly doubt that.
I could certainly put it into a rat rod, a cobra kit or any US DOT compliant vehicle, and in many cases, I could get that thing legally registered on the road.
Putting an RB in a Nissan frame that was simply imported as parts, is reassembling a Skyline and therefore illegal. Putting one in a Kaizo unibody is not.
Enough processing has gone into my unibody to make it a 100% legit non-Nissan car part that is DOT compliant. You can't take apart a Kaizo in the US and send it back Japan and have it retitled as a Skyline, because it is no longer a Skyline. It's a car built by ME (some guy from New Jersey with tatoos) from remanufactured car parts and individual custom parts.
If I were to get my Kaizo GTR legally imported to Japan (again, hypothetical) in order to sell it, it would be wrong (and probably highly illegal) to try and pass the car off as a Nissan. It is most certainly not a Nissan. It's actually a custom built car fabricated by some dude in the US who takes JDM way too seriously. Just because it has an RB26 (the Japanese consumer might say), doesn't make it a real Nissan Skyline. It's a car built by a hobbyist in NJ. As far as my RB goes, if it turns out the law is in fact being broken, it is I (the consumer...the hobbyist) who am braking it, and not Kaizo.
Modified by mikeolla at 2:57 PM 6/7/2009
Additionally, an extremely compelling legal argument can be made for putting an RB26 in a US car. I can put an RB26 in a Vette, can't I? I may get struck by lightning, but it's perfectly legal.
Is the Nissan RB26DETT motor an outlaw motor or something? I very, very, very highly doubt that.
I could certainly put it into a rat rod, a cobra kit or any US DOT compliant vehicle, and in many cases, I could get that thing legally registered on the road.
Putting an RB in a Nissan frame that was simply imported as parts, is reassembling a Skyline and therefore illegal. Putting one in a Kaizo unibody is not.
Enough processing has gone into my unibody to make it a 100% legit non-Nissan car part that is DOT compliant. You can't take apart a Kaizo in the US and send it back Japan and have it retitled as a Skyline, because it is no longer a Skyline. It's a car built by ME (some guy from New Jersey with tatoos) from remanufactured car parts and individual custom parts.
If I were to get my Kaizo GTR legally imported to Japan (again, hypothetical) in order to sell it, it would be wrong (and probably highly illegal) to try and pass the car off as a Nissan. It is most certainly not a Nissan. It's actually a custom built car fabricated by some dude in the US who takes JDM way too seriously. Just because it has an RB26 (the Japanese consumer might say), doesn't make it a real Nissan Skyline. It's a car built by a hobbyist in NJ. As far as my RB goes, if it turns out the law is in fact being broken, it is I (the consumer...the hobbyist) who am braking it, and not Kaizo.
Modified by mikeolla at 2:57 PM 6/7/2009
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quasimondo
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:05 pm
Re: (mikeolla)
Quote »Another way the "once a Nissan, always a Nissan" argument is unsatisfactory in my opinion, is in the case of Ruff.You can say "a Porsche is a Porsche, no matter what", all you want. However, not everyone agrees. Alois Ruff certainly doesn't. ....and I haven't ever seen anyone accuse him of switching a Porsche VIN# for his own!
All his interior stuff, LED's, etc. also look as if they've been simply transplanted from a real Porsche! Call it whatever you want. ....a Ruff, a loophole, or a rough loophole.... even a Ruff loophole! I call it an exception to the rule!
Hell, you can even pronounce it Ruf instead of Roof! It still has it's own VIN, just like Gemballa.
It's an exception to the rule. Just as when we learn chess, we learn the pawn only moves 2 squares on the first move and only one square at a time after that. After playing awhile, we learn the "en passant" rule, where a pawn takes "in passing". Pull that move on a someone who never heard of that rule and they'll be like "HEY DUDE YOU TOTALLY CHEATED!!!!!" ...fact is, it's a legal move that many players are not familiar with. It is nonetheless a legal move!
Again, my wierd hypothetical time travel story....
Theoretically, ...if you were on the US dock, watching a Kaizo unibody enter the US as car parts... and were suddenly able to turn back the hands of time in order to trace the unibody part and see the origin of where the unibody was manufactured, what you would see is the following:
The origin of the unibody is at its Japanese manufacturer.... that manufacturer is Kaizo. Not Nissan.[/quote]1. RUF is recognized as an auto manufactuer by the German government. Because Germany sees RUF as an automobile manufacturer, the Federal Gov't also sees RUF as an auto manufacturer. Keep in mind that RUF still had to ensure the cars they sold in the U.S. met federal DOT and EPA standards.
2. If we apply the same situation to U.S. cars that are equally modified, the same will not apply. Companies like Saleen and Callaway are not recognized by the Federal govenment as manufactuers, despite the fact they extensively modify Corvettes and Mustangs to the level that companies like RUF builds their cars. If RUF ran a U.S. based operation, any car they built would end up being registered as a Porsche.
Quote »I also feel that putting an LS1 in a Kaizo unibody makes the whole grey area a very black and white issue.Additionally, an extremely compelling legal argument can be made for putting an RB26 in a US car. I can put an RB26 in a Vette, can't I? I may get struck by lightning, but it's perfectly legal.
Is the Nissan RB26DETT motor an outlaw motor or something? I very, very, very highly doubt that.
I could certainly put it into a rat rod, a cobra kit or any US DOT compliant vehicle, and in many cases, I could get that thing legally registered on the road.
Putting an RB in a Nissan frame that was simply imported as parts, is reassembling a Skyline and therefore illegal. Putting one in a Kaizo unibody is not.
Enough processing has gone into my unibody to make it a 100% legit non-Nissan car part that is DOT compliant. You can't take apart a Kaizo in the US and send it back Japan and have it retitled as a Skyline, because it is no longer a Skyline. It's a car built by ME (some guy from New Jersey with tatoos) from remanufactured car parts and individual custom parts.
If I were to get my Kaizo GTR legally imported to Japan (again, hypothetical) in order to sell it, it would be wrong (and probably highly illegal) to try and pass the car off as a Nissan. It is most certainly not a Nissan. It's actually a custom built car fabricated by some dude in the US who takes JDM way too seriously. Just because it has an RB26 (the Japanese consumer might say), doesn't make it a real Nissan Skyline. It's a car built by a hobbyist in NJ.
As far as my RB goes, if it turns out the law is in fact being broken, it is I (the consumer...the hobbyist) who am braking it, and not Kaizo.[/quote]1. No, it doesn't. When it comes to engine swaps, if you drop a LS1 into a RX-7, it's still a RX-7. Monster Miatas didn't stop being Mazdas because somebody shoehorned a Mustang engine in them. Engine swaps are not enough to make the feds look the other way.
2. The RB26DETT is an outlaw motor. It was never certified by the EPA, and any car that it is installed in (except for vehicles manufactured before 1972) cannot be driven on legally public roads.
3. It doesn't matter how much processing you've done to the car. It's still a Nissan Skyline. If you try to sell your Kaizo GTR in Japan, it'll still be a Nissan Skyline. There is nothing custom about it, other than welding up some brackets to satisfy the DOT and selling it without an engine, and that is not enough to designate it as something other than a Nissan Skyline.
All his interior stuff, LED's, etc. also look as if they've been simply transplanted from a real Porsche! Call it whatever you want. ....a Ruff, a loophole, or a rough loophole.... even a Ruff loophole! I call it an exception to the rule!
Hell, you can even pronounce it Ruf instead of Roof! It still has it's own VIN, just like Gemballa.
It's an exception to the rule. Just as when we learn chess, we learn the pawn only moves 2 squares on the first move and only one square at a time after that. After playing awhile, we learn the "en passant" rule, where a pawn takes "in passing". Pull that move on a someone who never heard of that rule and they'll be like "HEY DUDE YOU TOTALLY CHEATED!!!!!" ...fact is, it's a legal move that many players are not familiar with. It is nonetheless a legal move!
Again, my wierd hypothetical time travel story....
Theoretically, ...if you were on the US dock, watching a Kaizo unibody enter the US as car parts... and were suddenly able to turn back the hands of time in order to trace the unibody part and see the origin of where the unibody was manufactured, what you would see is the following:
The origin of the unibody is at its Japanese manufacturer.... that manufacturer is Kaizo. Not Nissan.[/quote]1. RUF is recognized as an auto manufactuer by the German government. Because Germany sees RUF as an automobile manufacturer, the Federal Gov't also sees RUF as an auto manufacturer. Keep in mind that RUF still had to ensure the cars they sold in the U.S. met federal DOT and EPA standards.
2. If we apply the same situation to U.S. cars that are equally modified, the same will not apply. Companies like Saleen and Callaway are not recognized by the Federal govenment as manufactuers, despite the fact they extensively modify Corvettes and Mustangs to the level that companies like RUF builds their cars. If RUF ran a U.S. based operation, any car they built would end up being registered as a Porsche.
Quote »I also feel that putting an LS1 in a Kaizo unibody makes the whole grey area a very black and white issue.Additionally, an extremely compelling legal argument can be made for putting an RB26 in a US car. I can put an RB26 in a Vette, can't I? I may get struck by lightning, but it's perfectly legal.
Is the Nissan RB26DETT motor an outlaw motor or something? I very, very, very highly doubt that.
I could certainly put it into a rat rod, a cobra kit or any US DOT compliant vehicle, and in many cases, I could get that thing legally registered on the road.
Putting an RB in a Nissan frame that was simply imported as parts, is reassembling a Skyline and therefore illegal. Putting one in a Kaizo unibody is not.
Enough processing has gone into my unibody to make it a 100% legit non-Nissan car part that is DOT compliant. You can't take apart a Kaizo in the US and send it back Japan and have it retitled as a Skyline, because it is no longer a Skyline. It's a car built by ME (some guy from New Jersey with tatoos) from remanufactured car parts and individual custom parts.
If I were to get my Kaizo GTR legally imported to Japan (again, hypothetical) in order to sell it, it would be wrong (and probably highly illegal) to try and pass the car off as a Nissan. It is most certainly not a Nissan. It's actually a custom built car fabricated by some dude in the US who takes JDM way too seriously. Just because it has an RB26 (the Japanese consumer might say), doesn't make it a real Nissan Skyline. It's a car built by a hobbyist in NJ.
As far as my RB goes, if it turns out the law is in fact being broken, it is I (the consumer...the hobbyist) who am braking it, and not Kaizo.[/quote]1. No, it doesn't. When it comes to engine swaps, if you drop a LS1 into a RX-7, it's still a RX-7. Monster Miatas didn't stop being Mazdas because somebody shoehorned a Mustang engine in them. Engine swaps are not enough to make the feds look the other way.
2. The RB26DETT is an outlaw motor. It was never certified by the EPA, and any car that it is installed in (except for vehicles manufactured before 1972) cannot be driven on legally public roads.
3. It doesn't matter how much processing you've done to the car. It's still a Nissan Skyline. If you try to sell your Kaizo GTR in Japan, it'll still be a Nissan Skyline. There is nothing custom about it, other than welding up some brackets to satisfy the DOT and selling it without an engine, and that is not enough to designate it as something other than a Nissan Skyline.
Re: (quasimondo)
RB26DETT is not a outlawed motor, the NHTSA has the 96-98 R33 GTS/GTR legal for import, therefore allowing the RB26DETT which obviously comes standard on... the GTR. The issue is OBDII, not the motor.
Re: (quasimondo)
I see your point about the Monster Miata. Ok.
About Ruff, well...you bring up some really good points.
I understand that you guys don't feel it's possible to modify a Nissan frame enough to make it a re-manufactured part...and that it is forever a Nissan, but it seems to be ok with the NHTSA that Kaizo gives the unibody a VIN#. After all, they're the ones who said it was ok for Kaizo to do that. Why isn't it ok with everybody else? The NHTSA doesn't call it a Nissan, because if they did, they wouldn't have allowed Kaizo to issue VIN's to their unibody kits.
About the RB, though............. not buyin it. At the time of my writing this, someone below has already made a very strong argument for the legality of the RB. ...and you know my philosophy, "what one man can make legal, so could another man."
I cannot prove that the RB has a certificate of conformity with the EPA, but there sure seems to be one.
About Ruff, well...you bring up some really good points.
I understand that you guys don't feel it's possible to modify a Nissan frame enough to make it a re-manufactured part...and that it is forever a Nissan, but it seems to be ok with the NHTSA that Kaizo gives the unibody a VIN#. After all, they're the ones who said it was ok for Kaizo to do that. Why isn't it ok with everybody else? The NHTSA doesn't call it a Nissan, because if they did, they wouldn't have allowed Kaizo to issue VIN's to their unibody kits.
About the RB, though............. not buyin it. At the time of my writing this, someone below has already made a very strong argument for the legality of the RB. ...and you know my philosophy, "what one man can make legal, so could another man."
I cannot prove that the RB has a certificate of conformity with the EPA, but there sure seems to be one.
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themadscientist
- Posts: 26254
- Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 3:30 pm
- Car: R32 GTR, DR30 RS Turbo, BRZ, Lunchbox, NSR50 Sportster 883 Iron
- Location: Staring down at you with disdain from the spooky mountaintop castle.
Re: (mikeolla)
I see your monster Miata and raise you a MustaFocus!
http://www.kugelkomponents.com/focus/focus.html
http://www.kugelkomponents.com/focus/focus.html
Re: (themadscientist)
Wow. wonder how that thing handles
Re: (themadscientist)
OOH OOH OOH I WANT ONE TOO!themadscientist wrote:When I say I want a 2JZ power R32 GT-R ooooh, the hatred.
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BLKTOPS14SR
- Posts: 541
- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:48 am
- Car: 1998 Nissan 240SX SE Kouki
1971 Buick Skylark 455Buick big block
1970 Cutlass Holiday Coupe
2002 Ford F-150 XLT
1972 Chevy Cheyenne - Location: Terre Haute, IN
Re: (DJ Raijin)
Unibody!!!!! That just means its not a full frame car like a GTO, Chevelle or other classics. Hell, my 1969 Boss 302 is a unibody. LOL Kaizo is just WAY!!!!!!!!!! overpriced kit cars! For the original poster. Your first post said you can't find any R33's. Where do you look? They're all over the internet. Just ridiculously priced cuz you know how rare and collectiable they are!!!!
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BLKTOPS14SR
- Posts: 541
- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:48 am
- Car: 1998 Nissan 240SX SE Kouki
1971 Buick Skylark 455Buick big block
1970 Cutlass Holiday Coupe
2002 Ford F-150 XLT
1972 Chevy Cheyenne - Location: Terre Haute, IN
Re: (BLKTOPS14SR)
Its still a Nissan Skyline. Are all the panels, floor, quarters, fenders, roof and hood new stamped products? Like a Factory 5 Cobra? Nope. Or like a Dynacorn body for a Mustang or Camaro? Nope They're all original Nissan. I think I'll strip my S14, put a tag on it that says Josh Industry and sell it for $50K. Any buyers? LOLOLOLOLOL
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themadscientist
- Posts: 26254
- Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 3:30 pm
- Car: R32 GTR, DR30 RS Turbo, BRZ, Lunchbox, NSR50 Sportster 883 Iron
- Location: Staring down at you with disdain from the spooky mountaintop castle.
Re: (mikeolla)
Corners like a lawn dart.mikeolla wrote:Wow. wonder how that thing handles