Has the NAACP outlived its usefulness?

[Stev0n]

But to argue that "colored folks" are not discriminated against on a daily basis and that we should just let what happens to them happen to them is to ignore the truth and forget the problem, hoping that it will go away.

So to respond directly to your statement, the NAACP doesn't need to offer scholarships to disadvanteged folks since that is NOT what it was created for... it offers them to the peope it was created to support. Likewise, our "Board of visitors" scholarship doesn't need to be offered only to blacks, or women, but to anyone from a disadvanteged background. That was what it was created to do.

And my rant towards the good ole boy network was only made to lay a basis for the argument that indeed there is a N.A.A. of Rich W.P., and it is the good ole boy network... and as such, there needs to be a NAACP to counteract this type of stacked deck.

To put it plainly...this statement is ignorant. Now i'm not calling you ignorant, but the statement.

To argue that "colored folks" are discriminated against more than white is literally retarded. The truth is, currently, white in general are discriminated against just as much as blacks. Sure the racism is more towards blacks in decatur alabama, but its all against whites in huntsville.

You wanna talk about the GOB system being the NAAWP?Where was the GOB when i graduated high school with a 3.6 GPA & an ACT score of 30? My parents (both factory workers) barely scraped by and could not afford to send me to college nor did they have the credit to borrow the money.

Being in an "inner city" school comprised of predominantly blacks (based solely on the location of my parents house) meant that, while the black guy in my calculus class that was in his car in between periods smoking a bowl & was too stoned to do work in calculus, therefore failing (true story) - got a free ride to college SOLELY BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN. Leaving me out of an opporunity to further my education.

THIS IS RACISM IN ITS PUREST FORM. You get called a name because of the color of your skin? *tear* Myself (and many others like me) are to worried about making it by week to week on our minute paychecks (because we got beat out by a colored man on the good paying job - either because the government says a minority has to get that job or because he has a college education that was given to him free of charge because he is a minority) to worry about someone shouting a racial slur at us.

The people that say "we need this or we need that or we want a handout because of the color of our skin" are racist.

What really sickens me is the ones who want a handout & the government to give them money because their grand parents or great-grandparents were discriminated against & because their ancestors were slaves...

#1) your ancestor was a slave - NOT YOU! And white people didn't kidnap them...their own people sold them into slavery. you should go ask africans for money - it was originally their fault.#2) My blood is predominantly native american. OMG blacks were made to work on a farm and weren't paid? But they gave them a roff/shelter & food? Well my people were brutally massacred - PERIOD.

My point is...racism is every. it's never going away. we are humans and we are not perfect. The NAACP was a great establishment at the time of it's inception - but in current times it is, in & of itself, a racist organization.

I firmly believe it should be revamped into the NAADP (advancement of disadvantaged people) or GTFO.

no one should have be a certain color for a college scholarshipno one should have to be a certain color to get a jobno one should have to be a certain color to go to a school

[AZhitman]

Don't fret, charlie - CakeBoy isn't much older.

And from the looks of a few of his recent posts, he's far from wiser.

[rjdmmfl1]

To put it plainly...this statement is ignorant. Now i'm not calling you ignorant, but the statement.

To argue that "colored folks" are discriminated against more than white is literally retarded. The truth is, currently, white in general are discriminated against just as much as blacks. Sure the racism is more towards blacks in decatur alabama, but its all against whites in huntsville.

You wanna talk about the GOB system being the NAAWP?Where was the GOB when i graduated high school with a 3.6 GPA & an ACT score of 30? My parents (both factory workers) barely scraped by and could not afford to send me to college nor did they have the credit to borrow the money.

Being in an "inner city" school comprised of predominantly blacks (based solely on the location of my parents house) meant that, while the black guy in my calculus class that was in his car in between periods smoking a bowl & was too stoned to do work in calculus, therefore failing (true story) - got a free ride to college SOLELY BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN. Leaving me out of an opporunity to further my education.

THIS IS RACISM IN ITS PUREST FORM. You get called a name because of the color of your skin? *tear* Myself (and many others like me) are to worried about making it by week to week on our minute paychecks (because we got beat out by a colored man on the good paying job - either because the government says a minority has to get that job or because he has a college education that was given to him free of charge because he is a minority) to worry about someone shouting a racial slur at us.

The people that say "we need this or we need that or we want a handout because of the color of our skin" are racist.

What really sickens me is the ones who want a handout & the government to give them money because their grand parents or great-grandparents were discriminated against & because their ancestors were slaves...

#1) your ancestor was a slave - NOT YOU! And white people didn't kidnap them...their own people sold them into slavery. you should go ask africans for money - it was originally their fault.#2) My blood is predominantly native american. OMG blacks were made to work on a farm and weren't paid? But they gave them a roff/shelter & food? Well my people were brutally massacred - PERIOD.

My point is...racism is every. it's never going away. we are humans and we are not perfect. The NAACP was a great establishment at the time of it's inception - but in current times it is, in & of itself, a racist organization.

I firmly believe it should be revamped into the NAADP (advancement of disadvantaged people) or GTFO.

no one should have be a certain color for a college scholarshipno one should have to be a certain color to get a jobno one should have to be a certain color to go to a school

I would first state that there was more than one statement there, so I'm not sure which one you find ignorant. But I do appreciate you distinguising betwen attacking the statement and attacking me.

You have a long rant about reverse racism, and I would argue that, in your case, you have legitimate room to be upset.. however, you have made the mistake that most folks do by lumping all types of affirmative action in to the same pile.. and they simply are not. In short, I don't agree with programs that allow admission of folks with lower standards based on color. had you been folowing this entire thread rather than a post or two, you would have gathered this from my previous posts.

but to say that an independent, private organization can't assist folks that that organization was designed to assist is not logical. for the record, regarding scholarships, there are plenty of scholarships and scholarship programs designed to specifically target a particular group. (I.e., only for Asians, PAcific Islanders, folks from Kentucky, folks from Alabama, etc.) Should trhey all be disbanded also? Perhaps you think so, and that's your right... but private organizations are not subject to follow the rules of the few that don't agree with them!

Again, should there be a NAADP??? perhaps, as I mentioned earlier, many scholarships, especially in California but also elsewhere, that are goverment supported are being reclassified to the more appropriate term of disadvantaged. Again, a point that I mentioned earlier regarding the board of visitors scholarship that you quoted in your post above. Just like there's a National Women's Assoc., many folks feel it necessary to create groups to assist folks that they feel could use extra assistance.

And let's not even get on the rights and privaleges that Native Americans should have... I have my Native American roots traced to my tribal affiliation and everyone on my father's side of the family still gets buried on our Indian burial grounds on Amelia Island in Florida. I'm very aware of the outrageous treatment by American presidents and goverments against the Native American population. But uhh ohh, I brought up history again, I shouldn't have done that... let some folks here tell it, in no way does what happened to Native Americans back in the 1700's still affect them today... right?

Finally, in your statement against the GOB network, if you re-read carefully, I stated the N.A.A. of RICH W.P. .. judging by your financial situation, its clear that you don't fall into that category, hence you were not being helped by the GOB network! BUt being in academia, I can tell you that indeed it exists and is alive and well... did you know that ANYONE related to someone that graduated from Harvard or Johns Hopkins School of medicine is GUARANTEED an interview to the medical school? Even if they have piss poor GPA and horrible standard test scores, they are gauranteed an interview. Well, being that 250 students are gicen letters of acceptance, and they interview 600 or so students, that's better than a 1/3 chance that a legacy student (relative of a graduate) will gain admission to the medical school. Compare that 35% chance to the 5.9% acceptance rate.. and that is the GOB networkl operating at its finiest. And being that this institution didn't beigin accepting minorities until the 1960's, the vast majority of folks that have graduated and that are legacy are students that fit a particular profile... not just whites, but wealthy, oir well to do whites from famlies with generations of physicians. I would say that that may not apply to most folks on this forum, including yourself perhaps, and you should be just as outraged about things like this as any other group not within this GOB network. .In response to both AZhitman and Charlieo, my guess is that, you continuously lose sight of the forrest for the trees, harping on smaller statements made in defense of a larger statement.

It appears that I must be extremely to the point with my statements in order for you to understand where I'm coming from, and I just don't have the time to do that with every post. I noticed that only when I gave a detailed statement regarding differential treatment of Armenians, Jews, and Blacks did AZhitman feel I accuratley got my point across. And I understand this... I understand that when attempting to explain your point of view to someone else coming from a diffrent wolrd view, without details, one's point can sometimes get lost in translation. I also understand that the purpose of a discussion is not merely to convince the other person that you are right, but to get the other person to empathize (not sympathize) with what you are saying. That can sometimes be difficult. I only ask that everyone engaged in this conversation do so with dignity and respect for everyone else, keeping in mind the complexity of truely getting someone else to empathize with a situation, without having to agree with the statement itself!

[AZhitman]

In response to both AZhitman and Charlieo, my guess is that, you continuously lose sight of the forrest for the trees, harping on smaller statements made in defense of a larger statement.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I am, by nature, an analytical and critical thinker. It has served me well in my profession as both an Auditor and a Special Investigator... When I testify in court, I do so with a full and complete comprehension of the individual "trees", as well as how they comprise a forest.

I am a firm believer in the statement "Words Mean Things"... I believe this quote was attributed to Reagan IIRC. I also like the statement, "Say what you mean, and mean what you say." If one is NOT prepared to have their statements dissected and critiqued, one would be wise to not utter that statement.

See, the forest in this instance (some people have it tougher than others historically and deserve a hand) is all well and good. But the TREES that comprise the forest are flawed. The steps being taken to achieve those ends are imperfect and in some cases counterproductive.

You, Doc, are a good "forest" person. I know trees.

Does this mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater? Maybe. Does it mean we do nothing? Perhaps.

JUST as with the economy, I believe issues such as this are self-righting. JUST as the market will NATURALLY correct itself, so will peoples' behavior. People do NOT set out to do harm. Very few folks get up in the morning thinking, "I'm gonna keep a brotha down today."

I believe that artificial intervention does more harm than good, and programs designed to combat social ills only make them worse in many instances.

I understand that when attempting to explain your point of view to someone else coming from a diffrent wolrd view, without details, one's point can sometimes get lost in translation. I also understand that the purpose of a discussion is not merely to convince the other person that you are right, but to get the other person to empathize (not sympathize) with what you are saying. That can sometimes be difficult.

Agreed 100% - And this works both ways.

By the way - Brilliant post, Doc. Nicely done.

[Stev0n]

My point as a whole was this...

1) sure, history shows us that minorites were treated horribly by the "evil" white man. It's sad that the best opinion of this i've ever heard was from comedian dave chappelle.

If my white friend built a time machine and we went back and time & saw George Washington, he would say, "Wow, look Dave, it's George Washington the father of our country. One of the greatest Americans to ever live." While i see him as the slave owner that kept blacks in a shed behind his house & beat them on a regular basis. I would say. "OH SH*T N*GGA! It's George Washington! RUN!!!!"

2) I firmly believe that "all men are created equal" - It's the situation they are placed into once leaving the hospital that's not equal. Consequently i think everyone should be treated equally/I don't think there should be a college fund for single un-wed mothers. That like saying, "hey, you spread your legs & got pregnant because you were too ignorant to take the necessary precautions. Let's reward with school money that the girl next door, that didn't have sex or at least used a condom is not eligible for.I don't think blacks, hispanics, asians, or native americans should get special treatment because of their skin colori don't think rich people should get special treatment because of their bank account statement

3)I believe there should be no organizations to help a certain type of people, but only to help all people for every background. With that being said, I think it is time that the NAACP go (as well as a butt load of other organizations).

[CakeDaddy]

Ad hominem

Oh, now who left that there?

Is that the best you can do? A wikipedia link? Sorry Charlie, but I’m not interested in clicking on a wikipedia(sp) links

Don't fret, charlie - CakeBoy isn't much older.

And from the looks of a few of his recent posts, he's far from wiser.

<-- Not worried.

Mark my words, and I said it here, he won't be Prez.

At least I’m wise enough to not make uneducated comments like this ... Now get back in my belly !
Modified by CakeDaddy at 4:54 PM 5/31/2009

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Is that the best you can do? A wikipedia link? Sorry Charlie, but I’m not interested in clicking on a wikipedia(sp) links

You can lead a horse to water...

[CakeDaddy]

You can lead a horse to water...

Alright Charlieo..... I'll let you continue to sanctify yourself in your own righteousness and one liners

Lets get back to the NAACP topic

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Alright Charlieo..... I'll let you continue to sanctify yourself in your own righteousness and one liners

Lets get back to the NAACP topic

But one liners are all your attention span will allow you to read!

[CakeDaddy]

But one liners are all your attention span will allow you to read!

umm hmm... sure. Lets see if you can keep my attention by explaining this comment in more detail..please

Every American, in taking that breath of American air, is granted the full breadth and power of the rights given to him by the American government. Modified by charlieo at 11:02 AM 5/30/2009

[AZhitman]

Is that the best you can do? A wikipedia link? Sorry Charlie, but I’m not interested in clicking on a wikipedia(sp) links

At least I’m wise enough to not make uneducated comments like this ... Now get back in my belly !

Sorry, I don't speak in movie quotes.

You're ill-equipped to call anyone here "uneducated". I'd be glad to compare intellect with you any day, Son.

Besides, you're the one who didn't know the definition of ad hominem. Maybe a little trip through Wiki would do you some good.

Now, go troll elsewhere, you haven't contributed anything of value to this thread.

[AZhitman]

umm hmm... sure. Lets see if you can keep my attention by explaining this comment in more detail..please

Why does it require explanation in more detail? It's perfectly understandable as it is.

I think you're outta your league here. But we're used to you getting pummeled in the Politics forum...

[CakeDaddy]

Why does it require explanation in more detail? It's perfectly understandable as it is.

I think you're outta your league here. But we're used to you getting pummeled in the Politics forum...

That comment has nothing to do with you, so go pad your post count somewhere else. It was directed at Charlieo, so try taking your own advice and go troll somewhere else, because you haven't contributed anything of value to this thread. Let Charlieo be his own man... he doesn't need you to speak for him or hold his hand


Modified by CakeDaddy at 10:46 PM 5/31/2009

[dusred]

Every American, in taking that breath of American air, is granted the full breadth and power of the rights given to him by the American government.

That's a brilliant post.

How could it be more simple to understand or be explained better?

[AZhitman]

That comment has nothing to do with you, so go pad your post count somewhere else. It was directed at Charlieo, so try taking your own advice and go troll somewhere else, because you haven't contributed anything of value to this thread. Let Charlieo be his own man... he doesn't need you to speak for him or hold his hand

Really?

Let's compare posts, Sunshine.

Better get someone smart to read mine to you - There's some big words you may have trouble with.

Last I checked, you hadn't made an original point in this thread.

[audtatious]

That comment has nothing to do with you, so go pad your post count somewhere else. It was directed at Charlieo, so try taking your own advice and go troll somewhere else, because you haven't contributed anything of value to this thread. Let Charlieo be his own man... he doesn't need you to speak for him or hold his hand

I simply thought you were full of crap and posted stuff to irritate people, I was wrong. You are just all together stupid with your comments, direction and the way you talk to others. Take my advice and don't post in this thread anymore.

[CakeDaddy]

We all get the same milk. Every citizen or national in the United States is equal in the eyes of the nation.

CHARLIEO, <--- big bold, capital & underlined letters people!!!!

The above comment is the only thing that I am interested in touching on. I’m sure others have their own definition(s), but………. Not interested, so I’ll ask you again. Can you please go into more detail on what you mean by the above statement? I have my own idea of what it means, but it wouldn’t be fair for me to assume that before getting it straight from the mouth/fingers in plain ole laymen’s.

If I do not hear anything from you... I simply fall back a forget about it and go with my own assumption(sp)

[dusred]

assumption(sp) wikipedia(sp)

Firefox FTW!

[DJ Raijin]

My point as a whole was this...

1) sure, history shows us that minorites were treated horribly by the "evil" white man. It's sad that the best opinion of this i've ever heard was from comedian dave chappelle.

2) I firmly believe that "all men are created equal" - It's the situation they are placed into once leaving the hospital that's not equal. Consequently i think everyone should be treated equally/I don't think there should be a college fund for single un-wed mothers. That like saying, "hey, you spread your legs & got pregnant because you were too ignorant to take the necessary precautions. Let's reward with school money that the girl next door, that didn't have sex or at least used a condom is not eligible for.I don't think blacks, hispanics, asians, or native americans should get special treatment because of their skin colori don't think rich people should get special treatment because of their bank account statement

3)I believe there should be no organizations to help a certain type of people, but only to help all people for every background. With that being said, I think it is time that the NAACP go (as well as a butt load of other organizations).

Amen.

[hannibal]

This thread ended when Charlie quoted "all men are created equal". It was obvious our laws didnt reflect this, and Blacks (and other people of color) were being treated wrongly.

With your comments about equal milk, you are suggesting that things have changed since then and I agree. I believe we disagree about how far we've come since then.

So when did we put this quote into practice? Emancipation? The 15th amendment? The 19th amendment? The Civil Rights Act of 1964? Obama's election? Yesterday? Tomorrow?!?

I'm not asking since when have all men been created equally. I'm asking when we started treating all men equally.

As for "living in the past"... we all should live in the present. Yet there are some that live in the past. They still believe that certain people are inferior and dont deserve a chance. They like to piss in others' milk. They still believe minorities "dont belong" in America. They believe Blacks shouldnt be able to live where they want to, or go to the school they want to. They think its perfectly fine to have a crappy school in a predominately Black neighborhood and have a better school in a White neighborhood. They have no problem skipping over a qualified Black candidate to hire someone else.

These are the people that AA programs seek to counteract. How do people sit back and shout "AA is unfair", without having a strong opinion against these voices from the past? As long as these voices still echo in our society, we need groups like the NAACP to act against them. Stop letting these people affect our lives, just as we stopped them from permitting a man to be owned by another, just as we realized all men have the right to choose their leaders, and just as we realized "men" included women.

Greg, Ive re-read and I see you supporting a 200+ year quote as suggesting that our country has achieved our goal of treating all men equally. I'm there, but I'm waiting for you to recognize it hasnt always been this way. I want you to see that those ideas controlled our country at some points, and you and I have to prevent it from continuing to happen. And I am willing to help you along. How else will you learn? You wont settle for telling your kids people are gonna piss in your milk. I hope you'll tell them to not let people touch their milk, to not let it spoil, and to churn with every ounce of their being. I hope you'll let an advocacy group help them in that goal, and I hope you'll help others and support those groups in reaching that goal.

If not, youre just wasting air...

[AZhitman]

You missed the part (directed to Doc) where I mentioned that I'm an optimist, a glass-half-full person, and I choose not to dwell on bad crap that's happened in the past.

I don't do it in my personal life, I don't do it in my professional life, and I encourage my kids to live in the present and look to the future as well.

Further, I live what I preach. I try to be an example of the way things SHOULD be. That means not pre-judging people... treating people with respect... calling out mistreatment of others when I see it... and most importantly, bringing people TOGETHER based on a common shared interest. People who might not otherwise interact under any other circumstances. People who might not have an opportunity to get to know more about each others' varied backgrounds and cultures.

I teach my kids that they can become ANYTHING they want to be. I teach them that life is NOT fair - Some have to work harder than others... For some, it comes easy, for others, not so much. We all have different skills, capabilities and strengths. We ALSO endure different hardships, trials and roadblocks. Some are inherent in our genes, some are thrust upon us by chance.

So, whether your "qualification" is the color of your skin, or something that's happened to you as you grow up, I see NO need for an organization to carry my (or their) water.

How about an organization for children who lost their mother and have to endure their Dad's crappy cooking? See, we all have our disadvantages - Only SOME of them are related to skin color.

So, I have nothing to be ashamed of or apologize for. I don't believe in being an apologist - Only in moving forward so that we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

CHARLIEO, <--- big bold, capital & underlined letters people!!!!

The above comment is the only thing that I am interested in touching on. I’m sure others have their own definition(s), but………. Not interested, so I’ll ask you again. Can you please go into more detail on what you mean by the above statement? I have my own idea of what it means, but it wouldn’t be fair for me to assume that before getting it straight from the mouth/fingers in plain ole laymen’s.

If I do not hear anything from you... I simply fall back a forget about it and go with my own assumption(sp)

I can put it very simply, without even bold letters: everyone citizen in the United States gets one vote.

We are equals in the eyes of democracy.

Shall I break it down Barney-style for you, or do you understand now?

This thread ended when Charlie quoted "all men are created equal". It was obvious our laws didnt reflect this, and Blacks (and other people of color) were being treated wrongly.

Anyone in American can succeed. The laws in America grant equality to all.

Andrew Carnegie came to the United States as a dirt-poor Scottish immigrant.

George Washington Carver was most likely a slave.

Speaking of peanuts, we elected a peanut-farmer President!

Hell, we have a black President!

I have no issue with advocacy groups. I have issue with groups that hold back an entire segment of the population by instilling a sense of victimhood in them.

And I still haven't gotten an answer on why the Good Doctor succeeded if the odds are so against him.

[hannibal]

You missed the part (directed to Doc) where I mentioned that I'm an optimist, a glass-half-full person, and I choose not to dwell on bad crap that's happened in the past.

I don't do it in my personal life, I don't do it in my professional life, and I encourage my kids to live in the present and look to the future as well.

Good. As long as refusing to "dwell" on the past includes acknowledging what has happened in the past and condemning it. I havent heard that part yet.

Further, I live what I preach. I try to be an example of the way things SHOULD be. That means not pre-judging people... treating people with respect... calling out mistreatment of others when I see it... and most importantly, bringing people TOGETHER based on a common shared interest. People who might not otherwise interact under any other circumstances. People who might not have an opportunity to get to know more about each others' varied backgrounds and cultures.

Sounds good to me. I would like to focus on your "calling out mistreatment of others when I see it". IMO, this should include recognizing that some people still seek to cause harm and restrain others. This should also invoke your "disgust" with them and their ideas, and stress that this is unacceptable in your neighborhood, for your children, for me, for other groups that have experienced the effects of these beliefs and for ALL others who THEY may think of reasons to restrain.

I teach my kids that they can become ANYTHING they want to be. I teach them that life is NOT fair - Some have to work harder than others... For some, it comes easy, for others, not so much. We all have different skills, capabilities and strengths. We ALSO endure different hardships, trials and roadblocks. Some are inherent in our genes, some are thrust upon us by chance.

I disagree with the "inherent in our genes" portion. These hardships are not part of who we are. They are a part of who THEY are. There is a substantial difference.

I dont believe you should tell your daughter that she must work harder as a women to be "successful" (period). She should know why she has to work harder than her brothers. She should know that its not because you have chosen this challenge for her, but that THEY have. She should know this plight is unacceptable and unfairly placed upon her before rising to meet this challenge.

So, whether your "qualification" is the color of your skin, or something that's happened to you as you grow up, I see NO need for an organization to carry my (or their) water.

First, the organization's purpose is not to bear the burden or lug the water (milk?). It is to bring attention to the tampering with others milk and seek to put in action the infamous quote. These groups attempt to call attention to people who holding these biases and prevent them from pissing in people's milk. Secondly, the "qualification" is not the color of your skin or something that's happened to you as you grow up. It is in fact how THEY respond to your skin color or your experiences. That is where the problem lies. You could falsely intepret the issue as protecting people from their own skin color, but that is not valid. It is to protect them from the unfounded ideas others may hold BECAUSE of their demographic.[/QUOTE]

How about an organization for children who lost their mother and have to endure their Dad's crappy cooking? See, we all have our disadvantages - Only SOME of them are related to skin color.

They dont need any advocacy group. They need you to learn from frapjap and Hash. Or at a minimum, they need you to locate all the take out spots within a 20 mile radius.

So, I have nothing to be ashamed of or apologize for. I don't believe in being an apologist - Only in moving forward so that we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.

I feel the only thing you have to apologize for is that you cant understand how our country has treated certain groups. Its seems like its merely a history lesson to you. But these were real people, with children of their own who withstood the same improper treatment. They had children, and they had children, and at some point, we must stop placing these restictions on the descendents of the oppressed in order to consider these decendents equal. Regardless of how you feel about them or people that look like them, it is imperative that you recognize that some people still hold the idea that women and minorities are excluded from "all men are created equal". Until then, the NAACP faces a challenge, adn they must speak up to condemn these ideas just as I do and you should.

I can put it very simply, without even bold letters: everyone citizen in the United States gets one vote.

We are equals in the eyes of democracy.

Shall I break it down Barney-style for you, or do you understand now?

Frank or purple dinosaur? I'd rather hear what the guy in costume has to say. (think about it...)

Anyone in American can succeed. The laws in America grant equality to all.

Andrew Carnegie came to the United States as a dirt-poor Scottish immigrant.

George Washington Carver was most likely a slave.

Speaking of peanuts, we elected a peanut-farmer President!

Hell, we have a black President!

You fail to account for people who break the law. Murder is illegal, and still occurs in our country. Mentioning that discrimination is illegal is as empty as "the quote". Its much more difficult to convict discriminatanors ( ??) than murderers . Murder often involves a body, a weapon, and a motive. Discrimination involves at least one person restricting the opportunities of others. No corspe, no weapon but their position of influence, and no easily observed motive, other than the desire to prevent someone from doing what they are capable of. As you question the prevalence of this desire, also question why other obviously discriminatory practices were allowed in our country.

I have no issue with advocacy groups. I have issue with groups that hold back an entire segment of the population by instilling a sense of victimhood in them.

Again, stop looking at the advocacy groups as the source of creating victims. You wont find it there. You must look at those who advocate that the past was proper, and our desire to treat all people equally is undesirable. That is where victims are made.

And I still haven't gotten an answer on why the Good Doctor succeeded if the odds are so against him.

Think about this one for a while. I'm sure you can figure out that some people are able to succeed IN SPITE of the obstacles they face. But his success should never cause you to question whether impediments still exist for him or others.
Modified by hannibal at 12:44 AM 6/2/2009

[Urabus GodofTraction]

You fail to account for people who break the law. Murder is illegal, and still occurs in our country. Mentioning that discrimination is illegal is as empty as "the quote". Its much more difficult to convict discriminationors than murderers . Murder often involves a body, a weapon, and a motive. Discrimination involves at least one person restricting the opportunities of others. No corspe, no weapon but their position of influence, and no easily observed motive, other than the desire to prevent someone from doing what they are capable of. As you question the prevalence of this desire, also question why other obviously discriminatory practices were allowed in our country.

Sorry, those who break the law operate outside of the rights granted to a U.S. citizen, therefor they cannot be included in talk of governance.

They don't count, especially when they are punished for the laws they violate.

[AZhitman]

Good. As long as refusing to "dwell" on the past includes acknowledging what has happened in the past and condemning it. I havent heard that part yet.

Why is it SO important for you to know what I *think*? Are you the "Thought Police"?

Why is it SO important that *I* "speak out" in opposition to someone else's behavior? Am I *that* important? No.

What if, in my own head, I *don't* condemn it? What do you care? As long as I NEVER act upon those thoughts, it's none of your damn business.

See, there's the problem - You're looking for MORE dredging up of the past. It's history. I don't care. It's PAST.

(NOTE: This was all theoretical, but you get my point - I hope.)

[AZhitman]

I dont believe you should tell your daughter that she must work harder as a women to be "successful" (period). She should know why she has to work harder than her brothers. She should know that its not because you have chosen this challenge for her, but that THEY have. She should know this plight is unacceptable and unfairly placed upon her before rising to meet this challenge.

For what purpose? To what end?

Who CARES? What difference does it make what the CAUSE is? It doesn't make it go away.

I'm NOT going to teach her to BLAME people for where she's at in life. That's horseshat. I'm gonna teach her to go out and TAKE what she wants from life.

NOT to sit around pointing fingers, laying blame, or being irritated at someone.

Here's the good news: You're not raising her - I am.

[hannibal]

Sorry, those who break the law operate outside of the rights granted to a U.S. citizen, therefor they cannot be included in talk of governance.

They don't count, especially when they are punished for the laws they violate.

Rash assumption, dont you think? All murderers are not caught and convicted, and not all who discriminate are punished by our current laws. I mentioned the difficulty in isolating discrimination.

Why is it SO important for you to know what I *think*? Are you the "Thought Police"?

Why is it SO important that *I* "speak out" in opposition to someone else's behavior? Am I *that* important? No.

What if, in my own head, I *don't* condemn it? What do you care? As long as I NEVER act upon those thoughts, it's none of your damn business.

See, there's the problem - You're looking for MORE dredging up of the past. It's history. I don't care. It's PAST.

(NOTE: This was all theoretical, but you get my point - I hope.)

Cause I want to know if youre seeking the same thing I am, or if youre one of those people standing in my way. I wanna know if you'll teach your children to stand in the way of my children and others.

I have no vested interest in what you believe. I just hope you not only say these things are worng, but you live your life like they are. Not just when at work, or at a NICO meet with Black members and female members, but when you driving in that roadster on a cool Spring day. You see, I dont just say these discriminatory ideas are worng, I believe they are. And I hope you do as well, even when no one is taking notes.

[AZhitman]

They dont need any advocacy group. They need you to learn from frapjap and Hash. Or at a minimum, they need you to locate all the take out spots within a 20 mile radius.

Why not?

Are they not disadvantaged enough for an advocacy group?

Good. Because I don't want my kids carrying a crutch.

I feel the only thing you have to apologize for is that you cant understand how our country has treated certain groups.

Ugh.

When you've lived in as many places as I have, experienced as many cultures as I have, and know EXACTLY the extent of my knowledge, you can pass judgment. Who the hell are you to comment on what I can (or can't) understand?

I "can't understand" how people have been treated? Are you serious? The audacity of that is just staggering.

Need I remind you that my ancestors had it FAR worse than yours. Yep - Read that again, out loud if you must. They no longer exist. Decimated and exterminated on a scale FAR greater than that of the Holocaust, yet history ignores them.

No, I understand perfectly. I just choose not to belabor it.

it is imperative that you recognize that some people still hold the idea that women and minorities are excluded from "all men are created equal".

Again with the thought police.

Some people still think "rasslin's real!". You on a mission to educate them too?

People can think what they want - It's their right.

If I own a business, and I don't want to employ women, Asians, or people with a hare lip, that should be my right.

And it should be THEIR right to boycott my business and use the FREE MARKET, FREEDOM of PRESS and CAPITALISM to change my ways and policies.

[AZhitman]

Cause I want to know if youre seeking the same thing I am, or if youre one of those people standing in my way. I wanna know if you'll teach your children to stand in the way of my children and others.

And that, my friend, you'll never know for sure - A man's heart is his own.

However, my actions speak for me...

The difference between you and I is this:

Even if I *were* someone who thinks as you describe (which I'm not), I could still get along with you. I could see past your Blackness and be your friend, but you'd never be able to see past my bigotry and be MY friend.

[hannibal]

^ She's your child. You should be raising her, not me. I applaud any man who cares for his offspring. But you should tell her the truth. She is gonna learn it from you or the "real world".

I dont have any children, and when I do, I pray to God I know what to tell them when they encounter shady people and their opinions. My father taught me to "choose your battles". You cant fight everything, no matter how blatantly wrong it appears. But some things are worth speaking up about, especially if keeping quiet means future generations will have to rehash these same century old mentalities.

I often feel it necessary to speak out against discrimination. You often feel obligated to speak against AA programs. I'm just asking you to carry some of that energy over to the real battle the clearly suggests why we had these programs. You dont have to do it for me, but you should do it for your children, or simply because its the right thing to do.