Grounding Wires... The Nate, Jerry and Perry debates. Split from Performance Upg

[suby01]

search button = more HP.

[pfarmer]

stillen intake and exhaust maybe?

Agree! Forget any electrical upgrades unless it is to increase capacity for audio. and if one should go with HFCs make sure they are high quality ones.

Perry

[SVTCOBRA]

Forget any electrical upgrades unless it is to increase capacity for audio.

Perry

(EDIT: THESE COMMENTS ARE INTENDED FOR THE OP)I'm looking at adding a grounding kit. Please SEARCH the site!!

I'm REALLY surprised that more members that HAVE installed these kits (especially Nate's) have not chimed in.

There are other threads thru out NICO where folks have experienced increased MPG and other benefits. I've seen a thread where the CEO has even made a somewhat positive post.

Anyway, that's all for now.....have some marinated yard bird on the grill which means.....
Modified by SVTCOBRA at 8:41 PM 8/19/2009

[Sentientbydesign]

Pfarmer doesn't like grounding kits and doesn't believe they do anything. If you're at all interested, go read the HUNDREDS of other posts on NICO and elsewhere that disagree with his opinion.

Then again, he has one of the worst track records with a G as well. Even if I had nothing to gain, I'd STILL disregard Perry's opinion of mods. Too much criticism, not much appreciation for them unless there is scientifically verifiable gains and even those are met with severe restrictions.

OP. Let us know what you want your car to do better, and we'll suggest what you should buy. The old joke used to be "Give us your credit card, and we'll mod your G".

ShowGoStealthBetter drivabilityBetter HandlingSportier

Just about all of the mods have trade-offs. You just got to let us know what you're aiming for (some, like 4drmadness) just want EVERY mod available

[pfarmer]

(EDIT: THESE COMMENTS ARE INTENDED FOR THE OP)I'm looking at adding a grounding kit. Please SEARCH the site!!

I'm REALLY surprised that more members that HAVE installed these kits (especially Nate's) have not chimed in.

Modified by SVTCOBRA at 8:41 PM 8/19/2009

The only thing a grounding kit can do is fix a broken ground. So the fix for a problem is to fix the problem in the correct way.

There are no documented horsepower improvements and no one has provided any more than non scientific statements about improvements. You will not fix a problem that doesn't exist, but you may create one.

A grounding kit, especially one that utilizes stacked grounds can in fact cause other problems such as circular currents. Nearly all the sensors on the Infiniti utilize balanced circuits, some with single ended shields grounded on one end.

The car comes from the factory with an electrical system designed by qualified engineers, most grounding kits come from those that don't have a clue about proper grounding techniques as evident by their designs (such as stacked grounds as well as other design features) but they sure do look pretty.

When searching the site make sure to look for articles on cars with various issues that have grounding kits installed, such as one that ended up at the dealer with the installed ground moved to another location since the car would not run with the ground installed at the non-engineered suggested location. Another poster with a grounding kit installed is reporting issues with engine rpm fluctuations. Still another is reporting his engine shutting down. Related? Maybe, maybe not, but certainly possible if the factory grounds have been compromised in regard to circular currents.

Keep in mind that the electrical system has a return path as well (the ground is actually the supply, electron wise). Installing a grounding kit does nothing for the path that is most likely to cause problems due to its far greater number of connections. I challenge those with grounding kits to disconnect and measure for a missing ground. Most areas in an Infinitiare within 1-2 ohms front to back of the entire car. This is less of a deviation than the conductors in many grounding kits. Most grounding kits don't pay attention to equal conductor lengths to avoid circular currents.

As far as legitimate grounding problems, the newer the car the less likely that the good factory grounding system has been compromised by repairs to the car such as transmission replacements, body repairs, and so on. The poster's car is a 2009. If an engineered factory ground is in fact compromised the best course of action is to repair the engineered factory ground, not lay down a non-engineered component on top of it.

If going for horsepower improvements go for one that gives at least 1 for each hundred spent, not one that will cause a divide by zero error on your calculator.

Perry

Modified by pfarmer at 3:04 AM 8/20/2010
Modified by pfarmer at 3:12 AM 8/20/2009

[pfarmer]

Pfarmer doesn't like grounding kits and doesn't believe they do anything. If you're at all interested, go read the HUNDREDS of other posts on NICO and elsewhere that disagree with his opinion.

Then again, he has one of the worst track records with a G as well. Even if I had nothing to gain, I'd STILL disregard Perry's opinion of mods. Too much criticism, not much appreciation for them unless there is scientifically verifiable gains and even those are met with severe restrictions.

I would disregard any recommendations that can not be substantiated by verifiiable gains, especially when one of those recommendations comes with a statement about out performing modifications such as intakes and exhaust systems.

Too much criticism? Well if something doesn't do anything yes would criticize that unless it is being sold for looks.

As far as intakes, well I will criticize most of those for normal street use since they rarely provide benefits in normal operating rpm ranges, in fact you have a negative in many cases where most owners do most of their driving. This is backed by scientific measurements so at least one can make judgesments based on something other than anecdotal evidence. Most appear to be purchased simply for looks or sound factors.

As far as exhaust systems the same can be said for some of these as well. Some will give some benefits, others will not. The benefits may or may not present themselves for normal street use. HFCs are almost always recommended but one that comes apart may actually cause damage to a vehicle of the type of design that Infiniti has. Others may be ok but not pass some emission tests. Many are simply purchased for the same reasons as most intakes appear to be purchased for - sound.

As far as underdrive pulleys there may be issues with engine cooling, electrical issues associated with the alternator, or any driven accessory. Needs to be considered. As far as lightweight pulleys, you can have issues associated with harmonics and operating criticals for the crankshaft. A high price to pay for usually minimal gains in spool up. Lightweight flywheels may have similar issues. Engines can easily run 10 grand and up, transmissions a little less expensive but still a sizable chunk of change.

Larger wheels may look cool but the trade off can be in poor handling, decreased acceleration, and poor braking performance. Some on the other hand could give improvements in these areas.

Drilled or slotted rotors can introduce issues, especially for street use. Larger wheels can however allow larger rotors and improved brake performance if properly engineered.

Other braking components such as braided lines may offer some benefits if properly designed. Brakes are often a good bang for the buck item especially for track use which allows drivers to go deeper into corners, often much cheaper than the alternatives of going after increased acceleration out of the corners.

Just about all of the mods have trade-offs. You just got to let us know what you're aiming for (some, like 4drmadness) just want EVERY mod available

Yep, some are just tradeoffs for your wallet, some have more disadvantages versus gains, some don't give gains in the areas one really would like to have gains, and some in fact can be scientifically proven to give increased performance where the purchaser expects them. A performance modification should be able to be scientifically verified as such. An appearance modification needs none of this. Like modifications for sound they just have to make the user feel better.

Perry

[joe603]

Yes, our car was engineered by highly paid engineers...but you forgot to mention how many of there designs are "shot down" due to the expense. Infiniti/Nissan is in business to sell cars...as many as possible. I firmly believe that these aftermarket parts make up that gap created by the bean-counters.

Aftermarket parts also do not have to pass the "quiet" inspector. There are many people who buy cars and expect to not hear the engine. This is especially true with luxury marks. So the design engineers make the cars as quiet as possible (intake/exhaust). Aftermarket parts allow an owner to replace components that make the car louder. This will usually increase HP as you get rid of restrictive air paths to increase engine efficiency.

Now, the grounding mod...does the OEM system work acceptable, yes. Is there room for improvement, yes. To many people have purchased these kits without there being any results. I think it improves the sensitivity of the AUTO trans on the electronic side. Maybe it decreases the electrical resistance which increases the circuit tolerance or feedback providing more constant shift points.

[Sentientbydesign]

Those highly paid engineers have utilized stacked grounds on the newer Altima, the FX35/45, the Honda S2000, one of the smaller Audi's (Can't remember the model), the Toyota Prius (if memory serves me).

The fact of the matter is, that you LIKE to poke holes in performance mods...because you can(?) or you think your background qualifies you to(?).

I've seen what breather mods and a tune are capable of on our cars 250 ft lbs of MEAN (Average for all others reading) TQ and peak HP in the 290 range.

Another fact is that those highly paid engineers must have made some mistakes with your model as you are CONSTANTLY criticizing your G as being the most unreliable vehicle you've owned to date.

Please place both feet squarely on one side of the line.

[kmckis1029]

The fact of the matter is, that you LIKE to poke holes in performance mods...because you can(?) or you think your background qualifies you to(?).

thats what it is...

here is some insight from my background (degree in computer engineering, practicing electronics engineer)... one of the things i dont like about engineering is how much power the accountant has over design. In most cases, except when it comes saftey, the cheaper design wins and thats what is built. Then to take it futher the accountants dont want the product to last forever, so the product is designed to, in most cases, gracefully degrade so that you have to buy another.

But thankfully for cars and alot of other products this accountant vs engineer battle creates the aftermarket. Now you get aftermarket parts from companies that specialize in a certian type of part. Which in most cases would produce a better part than a car company that has to worry about cost of the total car vs just the cost of one single part.

In the case of grounding wires for the G35... in my personal and educated opinion they improve the g35... and its most noticable in the auto transmission shifting response, the response/exit time of the VDC, accelerator response, and of course a louder radio. i already had this argument with perry... not going there again...

oh and here is another example of engineer vs accountant... why does the 350z have a struct tower brace and the g35 doesnt? yes the FM platform is very stiff by it self... yes the 350z is a slightly different market... but if an engineer had his/her way the g35 would of had a struct tower brace at a minimum, if not other bracing... i mean the car cost more than a 350z already...

[pfarmer]

Yes, our car was engineered by highly paid engineers...but you forgot to mention how many of there designs are "shot down" due to the expense. Infiniti/Nissan is in business to sell cars...as many as possible. I firmly believe that these aftermarket parts make up that gap created by the bean-counters.

Aftermarket parts also do not have to pass the "quiet" inspector. There are many people who buy cars and expect to not hear the engine. This is especially true with luxury marks. So the design engineers make the cars as quiet as possible (intake/exhaust). Aftermarket parts allow an owner to replace components that make the car louder. This will usually increase HP as you get rid of restrictive air paths to increase engine efficiency.

Now, the grounding mod...does the OEM system work acceptable, yes. Is there room for improvement, yes. To many people have purchased these kits without there being any results. I think it improves the sensitivity of the AUTO trans on the electronic side. Maybe it decreases the electrical resistance which increases the circuit tolerance or feedback providing more constant shift points.

In the case of bang for the buck, if a 100 dollar ( at the consumer end) part would produce more horsepower then it may well be accepted, especially for a required part in the first place as it will sell more cars. Exhaust systems, things that change or increase sound levels may in fact produce more power, sometimes not in desired areas however. This is why I mentioned normal street use. If you dyno many intakes and exhaust systems you may well see a decrease performance in the rpm and load ranges where most drivers use their cars. This may or may not matter to the ones installing such systems since they will not necessarily be operating in these areas, but most of us actually spend most of our time driving outside of the area of benefits that many of these add ons provide. Most are probably installed for sound changes, not performance.

As far as grounding kits it may help to look at how the various modules work in the Infiniti, how the sensors functions and so on. As long as your stock grounding is in place you should be fine as the modules are designed for it. Poorly designed grounding kit add ons can cause problems such as circular currents that can interfer with proper functioning. If you look at the various sensors for example you will see that many do not use ground at the sensor level for anything but the shield which is grounded at one end (lots of professional debate on which one end should be grounded though in many cases). Now if you stock grounding has been disturbed that is another issue, easy to measure however. Stock grounding can be compromised over time with body repairs, component replacements, etc. Easily fixed.

As far as the explanation about how the transmission could be affected, well it may well with the grounding kit installed as it is possible that induced noise may make it shift differently, not necessarily as designed. As far as decreasing resistance, measure it, remove the grounds and measure. The added ground wire will show a higher resistance by itself then the stock 1-2 ohms across the entire car which has stock grounds firmly in place. Now add in resistance from stacking grounds common in most grounding kits and the resistance starts to climb and circular currents can creep into the mix, this only gets worst as the ring connectors on the ends age within the stack. Even the resistance of the now longer bolt in a stack can influence the entire stack. If you are going to improve upon the factory grounds, one needs to do it correctly. Stack grounds are a good way of creating circular currents through differential resistance inherit in the stack. Some manufactures at least try to avoid the stack with the use of grounding blocks, sometimes in the form a circular block. Different conductor lengths may look better but induce different ground potentials due to the resistance of the conductor. Some try to avoid these issues by insuring that factory grounding is in place across junctions such as chassis mounts. Very common in various industries as an acceptable practice for both signalling and safety. Others have all conductors the same length which becomes interesting if you want to move out of the engine room. Now the fact is that you only have worked on the supply side with a grounding kit, not the return path which typically has far more connectors involved.

One hasn't mentioned things like suspension add ons. This is another area of where improvements may or may not be seen. I am sure strut tower bars do work on the track but in legal everyday driving if you had a lot of flex you may be replacing hoods. Doubt much benefit is there for one type of driver, maybe a lot for the one who goes to the track. From the standpoint of the design engineer it may be a huge negative when it comes to crash worthiness as mandated by regulatory agencies.

Hoods are in the same area of consideration. Recently I have been doing some reading on another car and found that those engine covers some of us may be removing are considered in the design of certain vehicles for part of the crash worthiness considerations as it works in conjuction with the hood. Sound a little odd at first until it was expained that they can keep the hood in place by helping to keep the engine out of the passenger compartment and the hood out of the windshield.

Perry

[pfarmer]

Those highly paid engineers have utilized stacked grounds on the newer Altima, the FX35/45, the Honda S2000, one of the smaller Audi's (Can't remember the model), the Toyota Prius (if memory serves me).

The fact of the matter is, that you LIKE to poke holes in performance mods...because you can(?) or you think your background qualifies you to(?).

I've seen what breather mods and a tune are capable of on our cars 250 ft lbs of MEAN (Average for all others reading) TQ and peak HP in the 290 range.

Another fact is that those highly paid engineers must have made some mistakes with your model as you are CONSTANTLY criticizing your G as being the most unreliable vehicle you've owned to date.

Please place both feet squarely on one side of the line.

The only real areas I have seen stacked grounds on these cars is where two conductors were placed in a stack, most grounding kits have more than this. On some 'G's you will see two conductors taken to ground on the front of the engine. Not a real good practice but as long as the bolt is essentially zero resistance then the bottom conductor which is grounded to the block and the top which is grounded to the bolt head then they should be essentially at the same potential. When a grounding kit has more then two you have the resistance of the ring connectors added into the stack along with the bolt which may or may not have been taken into consideration in regards to its resistance and ability to maintain it. Any aging of the rings now affect the entire stack with a greater resistance in the core. Some grounding kits avoid this, some with grounding blocks with no ring connectors, others with ring grounding blocks.

As far as intakes, exhaust, etc. most will affect the performance of the 'G' and are scientifically verifiable. Many will however provide benefits in areas not desireable to the driver's normal driving pattern. At what rpm and loads do we normally drive our cars? Do we normally drive around town at 5000 rpm. This needs to be considered but in reality many put these mods in place either for sound or looks, maybe both.

As far as my vehicle being the most unreliable I have had, sure. But was it the engineering of the various components or the assembly? The ipdm, the bcm, brake switches, steering module, etc. have indicated failures. But then are they really the issue or possibly the pin connections between them? It failed to start almost immediately after the last time but now has gone for a good period without issue. But then as I made clear in my posts my biggest issues with reliability has been dealer associated. 16 days or so out of service, less than 8 hours associated repairs.

The dealer has also damaged the car three times that I can detect. Once the bumper was marked up and had to be buffed out. Once the front mud guages damaged by the tow truck straps and had to be replaced. Once my shift trim was damaged and had to be replaced. None of these detected by dealer before trying to get me to take the car home, I inspect it each time it was released to me. Unacceptable.

Perry

[awdjdmtalon]

I challenge those with grounding kits to disconnect and measure for a missing ground. Most areas in an Infiniti are within 1-2 ohms front to back of the entire car. This is less of a deviation than the conductors in many grounding kits. Most grounding kits don't pay attention to equal conductor lengths to avoid circular currents.

Perry IF your car has 1-2 ohms of resistance in a wiring circuit, you have a problem. Now this is just ohming out the wiring. Not the componet on that circuit. That can had Mega Ohms of resistance. At max you should only have .5 ohms.

I have had hundred of hours of dealer training, and in every class I attend, there is always atleast 2 hours of wiring circuit training. So I am speaking from experiance and training. I am not one to pull number out of the air. I want to be as factual as I can.

[pfarmer]

thats what it is...

here is some insight from my background (degree in computer engineering, practicing electronics engineer)... one of the things i dont like about engineering is how much power the accountant has over design. In most cases, except when it comes saftey, the cheaper design wins and thats what is built. Then to take it futher the accountants dont want the product to last forever, so the product is designed to, in most cases, gracefully degrade so that you have to buy another.

But thankfully for cars and alot of other products this accountant vs engineer battle creates the aftermarket. Now you get aftermarket parts from companies that specialize in a certian type of part. Which in most cases would produce a better part than a car company that has to worry about cost of the total car vs just the cost of one single part.

In the case of grounding wires for the G35... in my personal and educated opinion they improve the g35... and its most noticable in the auto transmission shifting response, the response/exit time of the VDC, accelerator response, and of course a louder radio. i already had this argument with perry... not going there again...

oh and here is another example of engineer vs accountant... why does the 350z have a struct tower brace and the g35 doesnt? yes the FM platform is very stiff by it self... yes the 350z is a slightly different market... but if an engineer had his/her way the g35 would of had a struct tower brace at a minimum, if not other bracing... i mean the car cost more than a 350z already...

Cheaper designs often win, evident by the early Mustangs versus the original design of the Mustang which killed it after it was demoed.

As far as what creates the aftermarket, it is the consumer, not necessarily the engineer or the bean counter which simply deliver a marketable product.

As far as your anecdotal evidence where is the documented scientific evidence to prove any of this, remember the definition:

'consisting of or based on secondhand accounts rather than firsthand knowledge or experience or scientific investigation'

If any of this actually takes place then it is should be able to be shown by scientific means. Louder radio? So you ran a ground to your amp, well maybe but then you didn't increase your conductor size to the return path. Nearly all if not all sound signals on at least the later 'G's are balanced. In any case did you ever measure the actual resistance to any of these grounding points? I doubt it as if you did you should have found that the factory ground if in place has about a 1-2 ohm reading across the entire platform of the car after zero adjust has been performed. Well within tolerances of the various modules. The sensors themselves are also typically of the balanced type.

As far as the tower brace. Well as mentioned earlier probably not needed on the 'G' for its normal intended selling point. Also it may well have been available but was deemed to affect the crash worthiness on the vehicle and was left out. Or it may be that it really doesn't provide any real benefit to the z either and is there simply to sell the car. We should be able to find out how necessary it is on a 'G' by installing something like a plastic gauge to record verifiable points of flex.

Perry

[Sentientbydesign]

So Perry, if you and your OPINION need verifiable evidence, please go find it on your own.

A PERFECT example of proof that these grounding kits work is anecdotal comparison. I've read numerous accounts of people who purchased Stillen Grounding kits for their Gs and noticed NO differences in the way the vehicle performed.

All but 2 of my customers have noticed improved performance. Coincidence? Not likely.

I've seen up to 4 stacked grounds on Nissan/Infiniti and more than that on the Honda S2000. Your examples are full of holes and 1-2 ohms did sound like a huge resistance, but I'm glad that Jerry was able to verify that from a technician's standpoint.

The numerous issues you have with your G make me curious if there is something that YOU are doing to cause the faults.

[pfarmer]

Perry IF your car has 1-2 ohms of resistance in a wiring circuit, you have a problem. Now this is just ohming out the wiring. Not the componet on that circuit. That can had Mega Ohms of resistance. At max you should only have .5 ohms.

I have had hundred of hours of dealer training, and in every class I attend, there is always atleast 2 hours of wiring circuit training. So I am speaking from experiance and training. I am not one to pull number out of the air. I want to be as factual as I can.

Mine measured zero, but this is a measurement that others have done which is based from the negative lead of the battery to any point on the car which relies on a ground. This appears to be common on various other car manufacturers as well as acceptable values.

I have 2000 + hours of training in the design and repair of television and radio, close to 1000 hours in design and repair of microprocessor based applications, and 35 years in an industry that relies on proper grounding techniques for controls and for safety purposes. So with that I agree that one of the most important parts of proper grounding are the conductor ends and what they connect to. The other issue which is far more important in regards to signals are circular currents. Luckily in the case of the 'G' nearly all of the sensors avoid this issue with only a single ended grounded sheath. In the case of signals grounds of only the size necessary to handle the current expected are the accepted norm, no need to have conductors rated at 103 amps for such circuits.

Perry

[pfarmer]

So Perry, if you and your OPINION need verifiable evidence, please go find it on your own.

A PERFECT example of proof that these grounding kits work is anecdotal comparison. I've read numerous accounts of people who purchased Stillen Grounding kits for their Gs and noticed NO differences in the way the vehicle performed.

All but 2 of my customers have noticed improved performance. Coincidence? Not likely.

I've seen up to 4 stacked grounds on Nissan/Infiniti and more than that on the Honda S2000. Your examples are full of holes and 1-2 ohms did sound like a huge resistance, but I'm glad that Jerry was able to verify that from a technician's standpoint.

The numerous issues you have with your G make me curious if there is something that YOU are doing to cause the faults.

How about an issue with someone buying yours and ended up with this problem which appears to be improper stacked ground and or circular current related:

http://forums.g35club.org/zerothread?id=377613

It should not be a surprise that a grounding kit doesn't do anything beneficial on a working factory ground system.

You don't seem to want to provide scientific verified proof of benefits while at the same time making a claim that they out perform intakes that do have scientific verified claims:

‘I hate to advertise, but you can always look at the link in my signature and check out a grounding kit. It's cheaper than an intake and gives more noticeable change.’

Actually Jerry brought in the idea of resistance issues possible with connections which is exactly what I am referring to with stacked grounds.

Notice in the issue with said car not starting with your kit applied over factory grounds that the stock ground connections at this location are two sets of twos. Others have also stated that moving the add ons away from this location improved theirs as well, of course this is just anecdotal .

The 1-2 ohm reading is in regard from negative battery terminal to any point on the chassis that uses a ground. For example in one post about amplifier installation in the rear that has a 1-2 ohm reading:

-----------------------

It may be a normal resistance reading. It is the sum of the small resistances from all conductors, plusbattery post to its terminal resistance, plus battery terminal to its cable, plus battery cable to a grounding terminal, plus grounding terminal to chassis or body, plus body resistance to trunk area,plus body ground location at trunk to its terminal,plus terminal to amplifier connector resistance,plus resistance of the meter leads,And keep counting.

------------------------

Other forums such as Toyota mention similar resistance reading as measured from the negative terminal to any point on the car.

Since the meter itself such as the fuse also has resistance you may need to either zero the meter out or allow it to utilize its built in auto zero feature if present.

Of course from a running standpoint what is important is not so much measuring from the negative lead to a chassis point but from the source of running ground to a chassis point.

My 08 and I would have no doubt that the posters 09 should be about the same measured, well it measure as close to no resistance as the meter could read within the engine room.

As far as me causing faults with my car starting, well not likely since I have not reverse engineered a working electrical system. No need to move any wires around. The codes thrown were brake, push button, steering lock, bcm codes, starter relay, etc. The noted problem of steering lock not functioning was present on the last time prior to going into the shop and also one day after coming out, although on both of these occasions it did not toss a code. It did toss a code earlier along with the rest except the bcm which came later. The dealer stated that the car would not start while on the tow truck truck but started on the ground once off loaded. Personally I believe it is a cable pin issue that most likely has not been addressed other than by the fact that everything around it has been moved. The lack of functioning steering lock fits right into this if one bothers to look at how the keyless entry system fits into the sequence logic of starting the car.

Perry

[awdjdmtalon]

Ok here is what I am going to do for everyone today at lunch. I am going to measure the resistance from my Neg post to a few of the grounds from Nates kit. And to the Factory grounds. And I will post back w/ my findings.

And knowing that I am a ASE and VW Master Tech w/ 7 yrs experiance in the auto industry and 10 yrs in the aviation manitence industry, you know it will be done properly.

[tollboothwilley]

Grounding wires do not improve the Newer 5AT or 7AT (2007+) like they do for the 2003-2006 transmission. That being said, the Grounding Kit on my car was one of the best upgrades I made for the driveability of my car.

Perry, you are more than welcome to come drive my car with and without the grounding wires so you can feel the difference it makes.

[Sentientbydesign]

Perry,

ENOUGH WITH REFERENCING VIVEK'S CAR. You have NO idea what he's done to that poor little sedan. The eventual fix to his problem was not moving the grounding kit. The fix was to replace his throttle body which is a common "dead item" on Gs.

His 04 G sedan has had 3 different y-pipes, 1 cat back exhaust, HFCs, 1 axle back exhaust, numerous baffles, a JWT pop-charger, z-tube, 2 different plenums spacers, and the list goes on.

Please don't come in here with your years of experience and claim to understand something that you don't. So far I just see lot of members dreading entering a thread because your name is the last post.

Oh and one more thing, Vivek drives that car like he's trying to run away from his shadow. There are numerous factors which effect the performance and faults of our vehicles. You can sit on your high horse and point fingers all day, but the fact of the matter is that the cars drive better. Even the 07/08s have been happy.

[Poyzinous]

Like Jerry, I would love to run some tests if I hadn't lost my $160 multimeter 3 or 4 years ago...

[awdjdmtalon]

Ok here you go. I used a Fluke MD73AS3. This is a $200+ meter. The resitance in my test leads was .1 OHM. To simplify this all measurements I post are in ohms.

Factory grounds from battery to...Fat wire right side of front timing cover .2Thin wire on front of timing cover -.1 (measured it 3x, yes -.1)At right front fender by airbox .0Under coolant bottle .0Ground strap (braided flat strap) from L of eng to body .0

SBD Ground kit (it uses some factory gounds I will put a (F) by themFront of timing cover stacked .2R side of intake manifold stacked .2Throttle body .2At right fender by airbox (F) .0Under the coolant bottle (F) .0

Additionally I removed the SBD stack on intake and measured the resistance in the wire from the batter to the end where it would bolt to the intake. .1 ohms

All of the stock ground wire w/ the exception of the strap and fat wire are of 16 or 12 gauge. The Fat ground looks to be 8 gauge.

I belive the SBD kit uses 0 gauge. Correct me if I am wrong Nate.

Now a quick lession. You can take a single strand out of either ground wire you want an measure its resistance and get .1 ohms. But that single strand of wire CAN NOT carry the current or load that the entire bundle of wires can carry.

Back to the 1-2 ohms from front to back of the car. That is TOO MUCH. As I stated earlier. .5 should be the MAX you should have. More then that and you have something shorted, or corrosion in the wiring causing high resistance.

Rant over.

Modified by awdjdmtalon at 10:35 AM 8/21/2009
Modified by awdjdmtalon at 11:25 AM 8/21/2009

[Sentientbydesign]

Thanks Jerry.

Wire is "4 gauge" but is significantly thicker than most 4 gauge on the market. I bought some 4 gauge that was actually about 2/3 of the diameter of the stuff I used and wanted to cry.

I don't have the strand measurements handy to do cross sectional area measurement to figure how much larger than 4 gauge it is.
Modified by Sentientbydesign at 10:43 AM 8/21/2009

[pfarmer]

Perry,

ENOUGH WITH REFERENCING VIVEK'S CAR. You have NO idea what he's done to that poor little sedan. The eventual fix to his problem was not moving the grounding kit. The fix was to replace his throttle body which is a common "dead item" on Gs.

Please don't come in here with your years of experience and claim to understand something that you don't. So far I just see lot of members dreading entering a thread because your name is the last post.

Oh and one more thing, Vivek drives that car like he's trying to run away from his shadow. There are numerous factors which effect the performance and faults of our vehicles. You can sit on your high horse and point fingers all day, but the fact of the matter is that the cars drive better. Even the 07/08s have been happy.

Oh you mean the problem two weeks before the post about fixing the car start issue by moving the grounding kit. Also he wasn't alone in moving the suggested location of the grounding kit and said they saw differences.

Perry

[Tampa G35 Sedan 6MT]

This is getting fun...



Perry... I think they got you out numbered brother



LOL

[pfarmer]

Ok here is what I am going to do for everyone today at lunch. I am going to measure the resistance from my Neg post to a few of the grounds from Nates kit. And to the Factory grounds. And I will post back w/ my findings.

And knowing that I am a ASE and VW Master Tech w/ 7 yrs experiance in the auto industry and 10 yrs in the aviation manitence industry, you know it will be done properly.

Remember to remove the grounding kit first or you will just measure parallel resistance.

Perry

[pfarmer]

Grounding wires do not improve the Newer 5AT or 7AT (2007+) like they do for the 2003-2006 transmission. That being said, the Grounding Kit on my car was one of the best upgrades I made for the driveability of my car.

Perry, you are more than welcome to come drive my car with and without the grounding wires so you can feel the difference it makes.

Are the factory grounds in place and not compromised?

Perry

[pfarmer]

Ok here you go. I used a Fluke MD73AS3. This is a $200+ meter. The resitance in my test leads was .1 OHM. To simplify this all measurements I post are in ohms.

Back to the 1-2 ohms from front to back of the car. That is TOO MUCH. As I stated earlier. .5 should be the MAX you should have. More then that and you have something shorted, or corrosion in the wiring causing high resistance.

Rant over.

Modified by awdjdmtalon at 10:35 AM 8/21/2009

More resistance with something shorted? Actually yes as a parallel resistance. The rest is valid as far as causes including what occurs with stacked grounds.

Perry

[suby01]

http://forums.g35club.org/zerothread/445179

[pfarmer]

This is getting fun...



Perry... I think they got you out numbered brother

LOL

No where close. Note the stock readings are well within acceptable limits.

What should be noted is the idea of using 4 gauge wire. One must really have a problem with an ECU that requires 135 amps to operate properly. Time to purchase a new alternator and install a larger gas tank.

Ampacity wise 18 gauge would be satisfactory for chassis use for nearly any module on the Infiniti if not all modules (16 amps). Remember that changing anything on the ground side doesn't change the return path on the positive side.

Fix factory grounds and your problems if you actually had any would go away without adding anything.

Now if one wants to consider improvements assuming you really believe grounding a grounded part:

Avoid stacked grounds greater than two conductors using one of the various methods of doing so such as grounding blocks. Avoid ring connectors especially non pressure welded ring connectors. Avoid parallel grounds which cause circular circuits. Consider simply augmenting the factory grounds using the same factory path using bonding methods. Use grounds associated with signals of only the size required to carry the current expected. Don't fix what is not broken.

Use differential amps to avoid introduction of noise due to circular circuits in front of all modules and utilize balance sensors which are not affected by chassis grounds. Whoops, that is already part of the Infiniti.

Perry

[awdjdmtalon]

Remember to remove the grounding kit first or you will just measure parallel resistance.

Perry

No need to remove the ground kit. It only uses 2 factory ground points, as I indicated by the (F) next to the measurments. And when I measured those ground points, I measured on the factory wire ring and then on the SBD kit wire ring.

Yes a SHORT can cause high resistance. As well can it can cause an open circuit. You should know that w/ your "35 years in an industry that relies on proper grounding techniques for controls."

And .2 ohms of resistance is nominal. I'm sure that the .2 ohms on the stacked grounds could be lowered to .1ohms if spread out as sigle ground points. But I do not see the need for that.

Go back to where I talked about, " You can take a single strand out of either ground wire you want an measure its resistance and get .1 ohms. But that single strand of wire CAN NOT carry the current or load that the entire bundle of wires can carry. "