Grounding Wires... The Nate, Jerry and Perry debates. Split from Performance Upg

[awdjdmtalon]

Now that we have totally thread jacket this thing. Why don't the mods move this to a stuck topic called........."The Great Ground Wire Kit Debate"

[Poyzinous]

excellent work everyone! Now lets stop this bickering and have a beer who's with me! zozo?

[kmckis1029]

Oh you mean the problem two weeks before the post about fixing the car start issue by moving the grounding kit. Also he wasn't alone in moving the suggested location of the grounding kit and said they saw differences.

Perry

yeah i moved the location of a ground because of an observation i noticed in the design of the stock grounds... you can read the thread i believe i explained why i moved it...

basically for some reason infiniti splits a single ground wire into two ground wires right before it is bolted to the engine block... since i dont know why they did that and i dont have any manuals to explain why.. i decided to move that particylar ground on nate's kit... thats the only place i saw where infiniti did that while installing nates kit...

but nates kit did not cause any problems for my car even with the ground in the original location, i just noticed improvements... and 4drmaddness has so many mods on his car... its just not logical to isolate the grounding kit as the cause of his car not starting...

[awdjdmtalon]

Perry.

You said that you should not use crimp on ring connectors or stack grounds. The factory uses both. So how are Ground kits that use the crimp on ring connectors, and stack grounds wrong for doing what the factory does. If that is the case then all the designers and engineers are all wrong by your statement.

[SVTCOBRA]

Now that we have totally thread jacket this thing. Why don't the mods move this to a stuck topic called........."The Great Ground Wire Kit Debate"

I was going to actually start a tread like that had I not got any response....SORRY OP, but this was over-due!!!!

Now lets stop this bickering and have a beer who's with me! zozo?

I"M WITH YA!!!! NEW THREAD!!

[Sentientbydesign]

Perry.

You said that you should not use crimp on ring connectors or stack grounds. The factory uses both. So how are Ground kits that use the crimp on ring connectors, and stack grounds wrong for doing what the factory does. If that is the case then all the designers and engineers are all wrong by your statement.

Thanks for reitterating this! Oh and Perry, Nissan stacks more than just 2 ring terminals. I've seen up to 4. I believe they use bare copper wire and tin ring terminals which is the opposite of what I use (bare copper terminals and tinned copper wire).

Richard/Gabriel,

You guys ever drink anything harder? I would much rather a strong "girly drink" than beer

[kmckis1029]

yep... but everytime someone mentions grounding wires... perry pounces just like teloman with 87 gas...

keeps stuff interesting even though its predictable...

[kmckis1029]

yep!!!

Amoretto Sour is my favorite drink

[G_whizz]

You're frikn awesome Gabe!!

The OP had his question already answered in the first few posts...so we can just leave this as is..

Carry on and I'm glad to see you guys are remaining respectful and level headed..

[SVTCOBRA]

Richard/Gabriel,

You guys ever drink anything harder? I would much rather a strong "girly drink" than beer

I LIKE my BEERS!!! I DRINK....ultra....

[Tampa G35 Sedan 6MT]

Sorry boys... Im a Jack and Coke kinda Guy

[Poyzinous]

I LIKE my BEERS!!! I DRINK....ultra....

I like beer too. Since I'm a light weight at 155lbs I feel a good buzz after beer 2. It also can't help to be mexican. Our BAC is never below .04 so we always have a head start.... lolThough sometimes I just mix myself a strong, heavy manly margarita on the rox. Jack and coke is ok.

I"M WITH YA!!!! NEW THREAD!!

Lets jack this thread and post our favorite mixes! Favorite Beer: Pacifico (basically a smoother Corona) MGD and MGD 64 and Miller lite, Dos XX lager on draft! ooooh man. I love this place.

[suby01]

[Sentientbydesign]

6 brand Vanilla Vodka and CokeChocolate, Kalua, MartiniSmooth Patron MargaritasIrish Car Bomb hehe hehe hehehe (This one put my Marine friend on the floor. Jameson is not for the faint of heart.)

[pfarmer]

yeah i moved the location of a ground because of an observation i noticed in the design of the stock grounds... you can read the thread i believe i explained why i moved it...

basically for some reason infiniti splits a single ground wire into two ground wires right before it is bolted to the engine block... since i dont know why they did that and i dont have any manuals to explain why.. i decided to move that particylar ground on nate's kit... thats the only place i saw where infiniti did that while installing nates kit...

but nates kit did not cause any problems for my car even with the ground in the original location, i just noticed improvements... and 4drmaddness has so many mods on his car... its just not logical to isolate the grounding kit as the cause of his car not starting...

Actually it makes sense when you see that you have two sets of two. From a grounding standpoint the bottom of the bolt should be close to the same potential as the block. If you add a third conductor into the mix then the center conductor relies on the the other two and inherits any resistance from the ring connector.

As far as 4drmaddness, I did not make the logic into why the car did not start, the techs evidentily could find nothing wrong with the car and moved the ground and it started. In your case if you noticed a change then there is a reason why the change occurred. I have to assume that when you made the installation that you had all the surfaces clean and the connections tight which leaves either its location or resistance in the stack.

Perry
Modified by pfarmer at 1:08 AM 8/22/2009

[pfarmer]

Perry.

You said that you should not use crimp on ring connectors or stack grounds. The factory uses both. So how are Ground kits that use the crimp on ring connectors, and stack grounds wrong for doing what the factory does. If that is the case then all the designers and engineers are all wrong by your statement.

Ideally you should use pressure welded connectors and yes you should not use a stack. The only stacks I can find on my system is a stack of two, I see no place where there is greater than this on any type of chassis ground.

Crimp on connectors which look similar and are installed in a similar fashion as pressure welded connectors are prone to failure over time. Two types of pressure welding are exothermic welding and one not widely thought of as such - wire wrapping. Both can maintain their integrity over the life of the conductor they are attached to. There are othe types of pressure welding but these are probably the most common.

As far as resistance on my 08 using a 12' 8 gauge cable for a extended meter lead (and then zero'd) the measurements are less than .1 from the negative battery cable to block. From block to any point on the car when I could easily access the chassis, all the way to the back of the car, it measured about .2 .

Perry

[pfarmer]

Thanks for reitterating this! Oh and Perry, Nissan stacks more than just 2 ring terminals. I've seen up to 4. I believe they use bare copper wire and tin ring terminals which is the opposite of what I use (bare copper terminals and tinned copper wire).

Richard/Gabriel,

You guys ever drink anything harder? I would much rather a strong "girly drink" than beer

I see no locations on my car where this is done. I do see where they use two in a stack. Where do you see four?

Do you also replace (or add to) the negative battery lead on all Infinitis?

Perry

[pfarmer]

No need to remove the ground kit. It only uses 2 factory ground points, as I indicated by the (F) next to the measurments. And when I measured those ground points, I measured on the factory wire ring and then on the SBD kit wire ring.

Yes a SHORT can cause high resistance. As well can it can cause an open circuit. You should know that w/ your "35 years in an industry that relies on proper grounding techniques for controls."

And .2 ohms of resistance is nominal. I'm sure that the .2 ohms on the stacked grounds could be lowered to .1ohms if spread out as sigle ground points. But I do not see the need for that.

Go back to where I talked about, " You can take a single strand out of either ground wire you want an measure its resistance and get .1 ohms. But that single strand of wire CAN NOT carry the current or load that the entire bundle of wires can carry. "

As far as not removing the grounding kit the grounding kit is in parallel with the factory grounds, remember what the formula is for parallel resistance.

As far as taking a single strand out of the bundle or measuring a single strand in the bundle? Each 3 gauge step down (larger size) doubles the cross sectional area and halves the dc resistance (solid wire). With standed wire using the same size individual strand conductor (#30) the resistance per thousand feet for some common sizes are:

16 gauge (26 conductors) - 4.03 ohms18 gauge (16 conductors) - 6.54 ohms20 gauge (10 conductors) - 10.47 ohms22 gauge (7 conductors) - 14.95 ohms

30 gauge (1 conductor) - 104.68 ohms

But then you know this from your experience of using UGLY'S or the NEC.

Perry

[pfarmer]

http://forums.g35club.org/zerothread/445179

If I remember correctly yours is an 07. Did you replace the negative battery lead or connect another lead from the battery to ground?

Perry

[SVTCOBRA]

Favorite Beer: Pacifico (basically a smoother Corona) MGD and MGD 64 and Miller lite, Dos XX lager on draft! ooooh man. I love this place.

Now, I tried the MGD 64 when it first came out and it tasted like a tin can compared to my 'girlie' Ultra! Also, it has less cal/carbs cause it has less alcohol than Ultra. I did used to like me some miller light draft (in a pitcher) when we used to do the midnight bowling with the lane lights off.

I DO NOT do liquor anymore!!!

[Poyzinous]

I've yet to taste ultra (michelob?) though I've been itching to...I always get some miller lite on bowling nights...why don't you do liquor if I may ask? I love taking shots of new things, but in moderation of course.

[SVTCOBRA]

used to drink liquor in college, easier to take around campus.Just don't care for the sweet drinks and shots hit you too fast.As you said, moderation is key. Also, my kids will never see me drunk!!! They see me have a few beers while grill'n and then I switch to water with dinner.

[Poyzinous]

A respectable and responsible father. thumbs up to you Rich. Not many good parents left in this time.So many bad examples out there. Although I must say, I can't drink on an empty stomach. It always makes me nauseous. For me its water when grillin so the heat doesn't dehydrate me, then the cerveza! Or apple juice. I think dad is gonna grill today. The cover was off when I left the house. I'm prayin for some ribs.

[SVTCOBRA]

HEY!!! A new thread!!! I'll drink to that!!

[zozoka1212]

Wow I was busy for few days and missed a lot. Was interesting reading anyways.

[tollboothwilley]

In the case of bang for the buck, if a 100 dollar ( at the consumer end) part would produce more horsepower then it may well be accepted, especially for a required part in the first place as it will sell more cars.

Perry

Normally this is the case, but look at plenum spacers and how much of a difference they make. Obivously the engineers haven't made everything "perfect" on these cars.

The grounding system can def. be upgraded in the 2003-2006 models.

[pfarmer]

Normally this is the case, but look at plenum spacers and how much of a difference they make. Obivously the engineers haven't made everything "perfect" on these cars.

The grounding system can def. be upgraded in the 2003-2006 models.

While the plenum spacers gives you a benefit there may well have been a good reason for going with what they did which you will probably never know. It may have been that the increase horse power doesn't outweigh whatever they came across in such a way to affect sales. An example of this is the reported $5 upgrade to the original Mustang (as demo) structure would not offset with increased sales the Mustang they finally went with which was too bad.

And you are correct on an older car replacing or fixing your stock grounds will definately be a worthwhile upgrade.

Perry

[Sentientbydesign]

Normally this is the case, but look at plenum spacers and how much of a difference they make. Obivously the engineers haven't made everything "perfect" on these cars.

The grounding system can def. be upgraded in the 2003-2006 models.

Makes a difference on more than just the 03-06. The 07 coupe is the same platform as the 03-06 and there are plenty of 07/08 G35 sedans that can benefit as well.

While the plenum spacers gives you a benefit there may well have been a good reason for going with what they did which you will probably never know. It may have been that the increase horse power doesn't outweigh whatever they came across in such a way to affect sales. An example of this is the reported $5 upgrade to the original Mustang (as demo) structure would not offset with increased sales the Mustang they finally went with which was too bad.

And you are correct on an older car replacing or fixing your stock grounds will definately be a worthwhile upgrade.

Perry

Here we go with the devil's advocate again. The likely reason for the sloping upper plenum is so that the 350Z can have it's "unnecessary" shock tower bar. If you notice, that's where the bar crosses over the plenum.

It's obvious that they didn't do a great job on that intake as the VQ35HR has a completely revised thermo polymer plenum with symetrical intakes.

[pfarmer]

Makes a difference on more than just the 03-06. The 07 coupe is the same platform as the 03-06 and there are plenty of 07/08 G35 sedans that can benefit as well.

Here we go with the devil's advocate again. The likely reason for the sloping upper plenum is so that the 350Z can have it's "unnecessary" shock tower bar. If you notice, that's where the bar crosses over the plenum.

It's obvious that they didn't do a great job on that intake as the VQ35HR has a completely revised thermo polymer plenum with symetrical intakes.

Scientific verified evidence?

In the case of the plenum this is a simple clearance issue. You could have gone with a different plenum, bar, or a different hood. There are a bunch of different combinations, they took the one that likely made economic sense, which is exactly what I stated. Even engine covers on some cars come into play for crash tests which can affect decisions such as these.

Perry

[awdjdmtalon]

Perry.

Can you post up a link to the crash test data that you keep refering toon the engine covers. I would really like to see how they can help. I have never heard this. I know that they engineer motor/trans mounts to make the motor and trans drop under the car. And that there are hooks at the top of the cowl to keep the hood from going backwards into the windsheild in accidents.

But I am courius as to how a plastic engine cover is going to keep the engine from coming out of the hood.

As for the plemun design. I think its design had more to do w/ hood clearance on the Z more than anything.