Grounding Wires... The Nate, Jerry and Perry debates. Split from Performance Upg

[pfarmer]

Perry.

Can you post up a link to the crash test data that you keep refering toon the engine covers. I would really like to see how they can help. I have never heard this. I know that they engineer motor/trans mounts to make the motor and trans drop under the car. And that there are hooks at the top of the cowl to keep the hood from going backwards into the windsheild in accidents.

But I am courius as to how a plastic engine cover is going to keep the engine from coming out of the hood.

As for the plemun design. I think its design had more to do w/ hood clearance on the Z more than anything.

I believe it was an article in one of the magazines I recently bought. I'll try to find it again.

Note this is not for the Infiniti that it figured into crash tests. I would think it would work possibly as a spacer or a slide of some sort to aid in keeping the engine from coming up and snagging the hood.

I think it the design was also for clearance to keep from having to do something like bubble the hood or even for performance issues that have to do with insurance. I don't think there really is anyway to know as my guess would be that somewhere during the design of the z that they had a much hotter version of the car that did not make it into production, just like most cars. I don't believe it had to do with poor engineering, it was a decision that was undertaken for reasons to do with marketing. Not an example of poor engineering.

In the case of the VQ 30 engine the engine cover is to reduce noise by 2 db.

On an Aston Martin the front engine cover is made out of aluminum. The strut brace is there partially for crash worthiness but is designed in more of a v shape cross design.

Perry

[kmckis1029]

just to have us all agree on something...

we all agree a spacer provides a noticable and proven performance increase on the 2003-2006 g35 (VQDE)?

regardless of why infiniti sloped thr front of the engine...

[pfarmer]

just to have us all agree on something...

we all agree a spacer provides a noticable and proven performance increase on the 2003-2006 g35 (VQDE)?

regardless of why infiniti sloped thr front of the engine...

Only a properly installed Cosworth with factory grounds.

Perry

[kmckis1029]

Only a properly installed Cosworth with factory grounds.

Perry

wow... now im starting to think you are just picking arguments... so the plenum spacer does nothing in your opinon? never mind dont answer that... grounding wires work!

[Sentientbydesign]

wow... now im starting to think you are just picking arguments... so the plenum spacer does nothing in your opinon? never mind dont answer that... grounding wires work!

Perry is quickly becoming the new Jacko3. Makes me want to post less.

[awdjdmtalon]

Perry is quickly becoming the new Jacko3. Makes me want to post less.

Or not just reply to ones he wants to debate everything on.

I'm sorry not debate. I like a good debate that people can back up w/ first hand experience/knowledge, or proven facts.

I hate it when someone argues for the sake of argueing. I work w. a guy like that. And I have come to learn this.

Never argue w/ a moron. They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Modified by awdjdmtalon at 10:41 AM 8/26/2009

[pfarmer]

Perry is quickly becoming the new Jacko3. Makes me want to post less.

So who is the instigator in the name calling?

All I am stating is verify your claims such as that they outperform intakes.

‘I hate to advertise, but you can always look at the link in my signature and check out a grounding kit. It's cheaper than an intake and gives more noticeable change.’

The plenum is a one where modifications either to the stock or downright replacement have been made and are verifiable as giving performance enhancements in at least part of the power curve. It is part of the intake system of the car.

Perry

[pfarmer]

I'm sorry not debate. I like a good debate that people can back up w/ first hand experience/knowledge, or proven facts.

Modified by awdjdmtalon at 10:41 AM 8/26/2009

You simply made my point that there has not been any presentation made in regarding to grounding kits installed with intact factory grounds providing any benefits. No 'proven facts' to support this statement:

‘I hate to advertise, but you can always look at the link in my signature and check out a grounding kit. It's cheaper than an intake and gives more noticeable change.’

If is also a proven fact that this is not so:

Go back to where I talked about, " You can take a single strand out of either ground wire you want an measure its resistance and get .1 ohms. But that single strand of wire CAN NOT carry the current or load that the entire bundle of wires can carry. "

While the statement about current is true, the resistance in stranded wire changes with the number of same size conductors it contains:

With standed wire using the same size individual strand conductor (#30) the resistance per thousand feet for some common sizes are:

16 gauge (26 conductors) - 4.03 ohms18 gauge (16 conductors) - 6.54 ohms20 gauge (10 conductors) - 10.47 ohms22 gauge (7 conductors) - 14.95 ohms

30 gauge (1 conductor) - 104.68 ohms

This comes into first hand experience and the knowledge of the difference between solid and stranded wire, which changes once more if claims are made about high speed signal enhancements. For example the use of single conductor versus multiconductor including essentially 'welding cable' has some real significance when it comes to signals.

We do have this statement:

'The grounding system can def. be upgraded in the 2003-2006 models'

The only arguement here is that it more or less pertains to all cars. Higher grade conductors, connectors not prone to future failures, etc. can always be found. When retrofitting this is certainly a good path to follow. Connection points should be properly engineered based on the knowledge of the system.

Then we have this statement once again when it comes to unverified claims:

'Makes a difference on more than just the 03-06. The 07 coupe is the same platform as the 03-06 and there are plenty of 07/08 G35 sedans that can benefit as well.'

Regardless of what the 07 coupe is based on the 07, 08, and I believe the 09 are all very similar in design in regards to charging circuits.

There are no verified benefits presented for a grounding kit on any of these models, however there certainly can be an issue of installing one as presented on the newer sedans due to the nature of the charging circuit. This is public information that shows that the same grounding kit has not been engineered for any of the sedans from 07 and up even if it had in fact been engineered for earlier models. The lack of knowledge indicates that the benefit claims can not be accessed. So toss any possible issues with circular currents or any possible benefits in regards to signal enhancements away and you still have an issue with bypassing part of the installed charging circuit on these vehicles.

To his credit Sentientbydesign has at least asked the question:

'Perry,Mind telling me where in the ESM you found this sensor? I'd like to take a look. Kind of odd that they placed it on the negative side and not integrated it into the fuse container on the positive side.'

Without calling him any names in regard to him selling a kit for use on these vehicles without knowing about this issue I gave him a reply based on my knowledge of a possible issue in this regard:

'The description is on page 8 of the FSM of the 2007 charging circuit.'

Have a nice day.

Perry

Perry

[awdjdmtalon]

Perry

I read the post about resistance you made.

It is a good thing that they do not use 1000 ft of continuous wiring in cars.

If I ever get back up north to my freinds dyno I will do pull w. and w/o the ground kit installed. Then we will have scientific proof one way or another.

[pfarmer]

Perry

I read the post about resistance you made.

It is a good thing that they do not use 1000 ft of continuous wiring in cars.

If I ever get back up north to my freinds dyno I will do pull w. and w/o the ground kit installed. Then we will have scientific proof one way or another.

Makes no difference if it is 1 inch or 1 thousand feet, the resistance for multi stranded wire is not the same per stand for one in the bundle or one out of the bundle. Make sure the factory grounds are in fact intact. There are claims on other forums that the same benefits were obtained with simply cleaning up factory grounds.

As far as the dyno goes, that would demonstrate horsepower and torque claims but most of the claims of benefits seem to be elsewhere. For example louder radio, improvements in the way autos shift, etc. Go for the dyno once you set baselines with intact factory grounds in good condition versus aftermarket ground kits.

Measure your audio levels which if the factory audio is using dc-dc convertors should not be affected since it is mostly based on rail voltages. If not using dc-dc converters then in most cases the audio levels will also follow rail voltages but rail voltages will be system voltage. So measure system voltage for such a claim. As far as auto shifting with intact factory grounds versus aftermarket. Well what is an improvement? If it shifts harsh due to induced noise is this the same as what others claim in the way of terms such as 'crisp'? Measure for noise introduction, voltage, etc. Does it shift as designed or just different?

In the case of 07 sedans, 08 and up sedans (and maybe coupes, can't find the FSMs yet) are differences related to grounding changes or possibly system voltage differences due to charging differences? My thoughts on this part is it may end up related to system loading since the alternator defaults to a system voltage if no current sensor voltage is present.

Perry


Modified by pfarmer at 10:40 PM 8/26/2009

[Sentientbydesign]

So who is the instigator in the name calling?

All I am stating is verify your claims such as that they outperform intakes.

‘I hate to advertise, but you can always look at the link in my signature and check out a grounding kit. It's cheaper than an intake and gives more noticeable change.’

The plenum is a one where modifications either to the stock or downright replacement have been made and are verifiable as giving performance enhancements in at least part of the power curve. It is part of the intake system of the car.

Perry

I'm working on this, but Dynos are only useful on a very limited scope. I don't have the resources to measure shift delay or throttle response.

[awdjdmtalon]

A few things.

I am a VW auto tech. I deal with diagnosis of running issues on cars on a daily basis. I am very sesitive as to how smooth a car runs. I also deal a great deal with electrical problems.

The first thing I noticed after installing my grounding kit, was how much smoother the car idled. And this was the only change made to the car that day. I didn't notice and improvement in the radio at all. ( Besides I have 20% + hearing loss from working on Helicopters for 10 yrs)

The other thing is this. I deal w/ a lot of voltage issues on VW's. One of the biggest things is the grounds. Either due to corrosion, broken wires, or insuffecent grounding of a module.

And the correction for that is to, clean the ground, replace the broken wire, or in a some cases, run an overlay ground harness to a new ground point.

The overlay is done for a couple of reasons. But the main one is this. There are too many modules grounded to the same point w/ insuffecient wire gauge. So this tells me that the all mighty engineers don't get it right all the time. And that some times additional grounds are required.

Now this usually happens on car that are older. 5+ years or so. This falls right in line w. most of the folks cars on here.

Plus on a side not. I would hope. And I say hope. That companies like Stillen have done some R&D on grounding kits. And that they are not just out there trying to scam us for a buck. I HIGHLY doubt that a company w/ as many years in the tuning buisness would do that. They have a huge reputation that they have spent decades building.

[awdjdmtalon]

If you take a single strand of wire out of a bundle( we will say the bundle is .5mm and the single strand is .05mm) and run current down it. That single strand will not be able to handle the amperage that the bundle can. It will still carry the voltage though. But as we all know. It is the amperage that is important.

You can run 100,000 volts of electricity w/ .5 milliamps through the body w. relatively little harm. But run 220 volts at 10 amps and you are DEAD!

[pfarmer]

If you take a single strand of wire out of a bundle( we will say the bundle is .5mm and the single strand is .05mm) and run current down it. That single strand will not be able to handle the amperage that the bundle can. It will still carry the voltage though. But as we all know. It is the amperage that is important.

You can run 100,000 volts of electricity w/ .5 milliamps through the body w. relatively little harm. But run 220 volts at 10 amps and you are DEAD!

Actually about 20 milliamps will be plenty to do the trick, for some as low as 8. Special attention is applied at voltages of 50 and above although some reported cases off of boat battery banks. I spent 35 years doing switching at power plants. I am very familiar with step and touch potentials as well as issues regarding single point and multipath grounding both in the areas of safety as well as controls.

The point wasn't the amperage, the point was the resistance of a single strand of wire in a bundle. The resistance of that single strand per foot would not be the same as the bundle per foot. The current capabilities for the single strands are based on cross sectional areas for other than higher frequencies. I don't think there is a single module in the Infiniti that needs greater than about 18 gauge for chassis purposes. Assuming a 10 foot run at a full 15 amps you would have less than a 2 volt drop in voltage.

In the case of the common 8 gauge used for larger grounds at 15 amps you would have a voltage drop of less than .5 . For signal purposes you not only need a smaller due to current loading it is desireable for limiting noise induction. But then you would find most sensors use a single ended drain that surrounds the smaller signal lines.

Perry


Modified by pfarmer at 11:37 PM 8/26/2009

[pfarmer]

A few things.

The other thing is this. I deal w/ a lot of voltage issues on VW's. One of the biggest things is the grounds. Either due to corrosion, broken wires, or insuffecent grounding of a module.

And the correction for that is to, clean the ground, replace the broken wire, or in a some cases, run an overlay ground harness to a new ground point.

The overlay is done for a couple of reasons. But the main one is this. There are too many modules grounded to the same point w/ insuffecient wire gauge. So this tells me that the all mighty engineers don't get it right all the time. And that some times additional grounds are required.

Overlays should be done to a point as close as possible to the original grounding point and the original wire should be removed due to circular current concerns.

As far as possible ways of doing away with some issues, the follow are ways of getting rid stacked grounds:

Ring connector type ring to avoid differential grounding due to stacked grounds.HKS makes a similar kit:

http://www.autoaccessorystore....b.jpg

Same idea:

http://www.sportcompactonly.co...6.htm

Same idea again with picture:

http://www.statracing.com/buy/...m.asp

Eliminate the ring connector:

http://www.americanbassusa.com...d=203

Note that the last one is the style industrial applications normally go although typically in a strip. On temporary setups a grounding ring with all grounds going to the ring is often used. All are exothermic welded (commonly called Cadwelds). Grounds are installed equal length in most cases. A few of the kits here also seem to follow that idea.

Other kits do some of the following:

Single conductor passing through multiple ground blocks following factory ground locations. Ground jumpers between body parts such as outer fender to inner fender, inner fender to firewall. Radiator mount to headlight housings. Some of these issues seem to be related to body repairs and disrupted grounds due to repairs such as transmission replacements, etc. I have seen many dealing with headlights.

Many seem to recognize issues with circular currents and take efforts to avoid them.

The battery mounted ring kits would bypass the current sensor on the new 'G's however look pretty cool.

Perry


Modified by pfarmer at 12:17 AM 8/27/2009

[SteveTheTech]

Not trying to fan any fires here at all.

-There is one known potential issue with a factory installed ground in the early FM models. This does not pertain to any grounds other than the two on the interior bulkhead. This requires removing a significant portion of the interior to access but it has the most grounds in the entire vehicle. Many control systems use compound grounds on this member.

-Audio system gains are referenced in many posts but none of the commercially available kits address audio related grounds.

-Being with Nissan for a while I have seen several ground related issues on older models. Maximas were a decent example. My favorite years (98-00) have a rare increase in resistance between the engine and transmission causing either an engine driveability issue or no start condition but I have only seen that on a few cars. Newer models use CAN lines that require absolute grounding in order to communicate correctly. These lines are normallity check to the ten thousandth of a volt (0.0001V). Although little is published about the detection logic of many of the U1000 codes they are very specific to a concern and transmission line. The CAN system in modern (01+ ) Infiniti models use a high/low transmission line setup to send specific data packs to all control units and the control units only percieve the ones intended for them. Any modiciation or alteration to these circuits will have a ripple effect. So serious research is required before any electrical modification involving a control device.

-When measuring such a small amount of resistance the internal resistance of the meter and leads seriously needs to be taken into consideration. Having a variety of test leads and wires that I personally use daily I know that the resistance of even the best meters on the market can almost 1 ohm that will skew many readings. If you meter does not have a relativity setting you need to measure nominal resistance before every test.

-In the unlikely event that current is applied to one of these large additional wires the damage can be catastrophic and extreme caution is required whenever anyone is servicing a vehicle equipped with a kit. As it has been shown in this thread the current carrying capabilities of these wires allow them to deliver a fatal jolt to not only a human being but a sensitive electronic device.

Ok here you go. I used a Fluke MD73AS3. This is a $200+ meter. The resitance in my test leads was .1 OHM. To simplify this all measurements I post are in ohms.

Factory grounds from battery to...Fat wire right side of front timing cover .2Thin wire on front of timing cover -.1 (measured it 3x, yes -.1)At right front fender by airbox .0Under coolant bottle .0Ground strap (braided flat strap) from L of eng to body .0

SBD Ground kit (it uses some factory gounds I will put a (F) by themFront of timing cover stacked .2R side of intake manifold stacked .2Throttle body .2At right fender by airbox (F) .0Under the coolant bottle (F) .0

Additionally I removed the SBD stack on intake and measured the resistance in the wire from the batter to the end where it would bolt to the intake. .1 ohms

All of the stock ground wire w/ the exception of the strap and fat wire are of 16 or 12 gauge. The Fat ground looks to be 8 gauge.

to zeroing your meter. This is what we needed. Are the kit readings higher? Any chance you voltage dropped them with them isolated? Where on the ground were you measuring? Top of the bolt head or on the terminal itself?If one were to install something like this in theory it would be better to remove the grouped terminals and properly (in a resistance neutral manner) connect to the ground and direct them back to the end point of the negative battery cable. Instead of running directly to the battery catching the leg of the ground circuit off the two bolts at the body end of the cable will end up being safer than connecting directly to the battery terminals. This is even more the case on 07+ models that current sensors on the negative ground cable and that should be considered.

More important than the wires themselves and any potential cost/benefit is the installation. Long term chemical reactions between connectors wires and existing grounds need to not cause issues when exposed to water and salt and other environmental elements that exposed wires are going to contact throughout the life of the vehicle. Almost every kit I have seen uses a cut in the main harness bulkhead rubber seal. Sometimes the installer takes the iniative to seal the hole to prevent interior water intrustion. However this is not limited to grounding kits and is more common with people who install additional amplifier wires. Instead of cutting into the rubber seal I strongly recommend using something like this ( http://a763.g.akamai.net/7/763...63281 ) . It takes a little longer to install but this type of device will protect the integrity of the bulkhead seal that is located horizontally over several control units (depending on model up to 5 control units may be effected). This type of concern is usually only reported as a water leak but the damage is behind the trim.

Ok sorry to rant. I just feel that there is some information that could be brought to the attention of those who see this thread that started as a fight and has ended up as a sticky. There are many personal opinions here and for the betterment of the group and readers as a whole I think should all put our biases aside, as well as things said in the past and try to provide honest information to the people who are reading this thread looking for honest information. No marketing bs or sales pitches.

Adding a little skeptism to the group is a good thing. It promotes epic debates. That is why we all come here sometimes, right. For a good debate. Even in the midst of a heated S slinging contest with a full compliment of ego waving there is still some good information in there. I applaud you all for sticking to your guns at a level only really seen in politics forums.

Some of the great points I noticed in the early part of this thread were the accountant vs science people debate. I am married to an accountant and I am constantly being put in check when my imagination tends to wander and my wants get out of hand. If decisions were left up to the technical thinkers everything would like Focal Be series component set. ( only click if you want you mind blown). Sometimes dreamers need to be kept in check. This does leave room for improvement but in my experience with this manufacturer their primary concern is fuel economy and emissions ratings, then money, then performance and fit and finish. Companies like Caddy go performance over all, Lexus seems to lead towards fit and finish. This creates diversity among the choices and benefits of to suit the needs to almost all customers.

I am a huge skeptic of everything aftermarket as I have been sure to let everyone know as long as I have been participating in this board. However I am a huge audiophile and enjoy replacing OE components for sport. When altering the factory current direction I like to replace the positive battery terminal with a specific component for the job. A little investment up front not only look better but work as designed, since you have changed the design something more than ring terminals should be used. We have all had the car we tinker with and try things, hell that's where I learned more about 12v electronic circuits than many of the other things I have done throughout my career. Now I am a 12v junkie who spends his free time talking about work with strangers.

At the end of the day when modifying ones car as long as you feel that there is a gain science comes secondary. If you are a bang for your buck tuner you need to do research and find exactly what components fit your budget and plans.

[pfarmer]

Not trying to fan any fires here at all.

Sometimes the installer takes the iniative to seal the hole to prevent interior water intrustion. However this is not limited to grounding kits and is more common with people who install additional amplifier wires. Instead of cutting into the rubber seal I strongly recommend using something like this ( http://a763.g.akamai.net/7/763...63281 ) . It takes a little longer to install but this type of device will protect the integrity of the bulkhead seal that is located horizontally over several control units (depending on model up to 5 control units may be effected). This type of concern is usually only reported as a water leak but the damage is behind the trim.

At the end of the day when modifying ones car as long as you feel that there is a gain science comes secondary. If you are a bang for your buck tuner you need to do research and find exactly what components fit your budget and plans.

This is the device I use for doors when bringing in aftermarket wires to the doors for speakers. On many cars the stock wires run inside of a plastic assembly that holds the wires. This is hard to tap into for adding additional wires and often times can not be. I add the after market wires inside of sealed silicone tubing and then through this type of connector (which is hard to see but has an internal seal that will grip the tubing I use. Home Depot is one that sells these.

As far as the unexplainable we often referred to these as FM (xxxxxxx Magic). In these cases you can show that something works, is repeatable everytime, just can't show the why. You simply for example know that when you punch button 'a' event 'b' always happens.

As far as audio grounds it would be possible if somehow the rail voltage of the amplifier was affected. For example with an amp that uses a standard push pull transistor arraignment with one leg to ground the maximum output would be somewhat less than 12 watts about double that using a bridge arraignment of two push pull stages. The issue here then is that you would have double the number of output transistors to accomplish the task. Since the voltage determines the max output then raising the voltage can raise the output. If a modification increases the output voltage to the final stage of the amplifier then an increase in output power could be had.

To go above this limit most higher power amplifiers use a dc to dc converter. Basically this is additional circuitry that takes the 12 volt battery supply and increases it to a higher value. This gives you higher rail voltages. This allows higher outputs with a minimal amount of additional components for multichannel amps. A byproduct of this is that dc to dc converters usually offer fairly good output regulation for the rail voltages to the amplifier output stages.

This would tend to lead that improvements in the way of sound levels would be from the head unit to the amplifier if the amplifier employs a dc to dc converter. If not then the rail voltages could have an influence on maximum sound levels. Since I have been looking at the charging circuit on my 08 this brought the point up on the 07. What affect would bypassing the current sensor of the negative battery lead have on the system voltage of the car?

Perry

[LuckyLuke]

This grounding wires kit better works. I just ordered one for my car. I heard it works best for AT, you can shift smoothly and more responsive.

[G_whizz]

I would be interested to see what you think after installing it.

The handful of skeptics here will continuously disagree no matter what anyone says. Even though the vast majority of those who have installed it in their AT's are quite happy to have done so.

[SteveTheTech]

I would be interested to see what you think after installing it.

The handful of skeptics here will continuously disagree no matter what anyone says. Even though the vast majority of those who have installed it in their AT's are quite happy to have done so.

At the end of the day if the owner is happy with the money they have invested in their car than it sounds like a win. There will be people out there :::cough cough::: myself included that enjoy debating a topic like this to no end. That is one of the things I really like about the forum type mode of communication you get all types of people voicing all types of opinions on all types of topics.

Would you really want everyone here agreeing with you? There are other forums filled with people who will offer an opinion with no technical information, at least here you get opinion with a side of knowledge.

[G_whizz]

Agreed.

Forums would be a boring place if there was no debate. It's just that the same debate doesn't need to be going on in 5 different threads at once.



So there is a nice thread dedicated to this Grounding wire debate that everyone can ALL go completely nuts in!

[SVTCOBRA]

At the end of the day if the owner is happy with the money they have invested in their car than it sounds like a win.

Agreed. I felt no diff with a K&N and did with the SBD wires!

So, join in with me and sing!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J40rLaARx00

Would you really want everyone here agreeing with you?

They don't?!?!

[telcoman]

yep... but everytime someone mentions grounding wires... perry pounces just like teloman with 87 gas...

keeps stuff interesting even though its predictable...

What's wrong with 87 octane?

Telcoman

[LuckyLuke]

Installed my Black Betty's ground wire kit for my G. The installation took me about 4 hours. Yeah, I was stupid so it did took me that long to install it.

After installing, I think the audio sounds a little bit better. When the car is idling, it is really quiet. So quiet that I am afraid my car would stall.

I bought the ground wire kit was hoping to improve throttle response and smooth shifting (AT G37), but I hardly notice the difference.

That is all I can report for now.

[G_whizz]

Was it Nate's kit? (SBD)

[LuckyLuke]

Nope, Black Betty Ground Wire kit.. I heard a lot of things about it for G37..

[kmckis1029]

just you... i know you love 87 gas... i only use 93... but we drive our car way different...

Was it Nate's kit? (SBD)

SBD is nates wires

[kmckis1029]

errie quiet idle after installing a grounding kit

[Sentientbydesign]

Installed my Black Betty's ground wire kit for my G. The installation took me about 4 hours. Yeah, I was stupid so it did took me that long to install it.

After installing, I think the audio sounds a little bit better. When the car is idling, it is really quiet. So quiet that I am afraid my car would stall.

I bought the ground wire kit was hoping to improve throttle response and smooth shifting (AT G37), but I hardly notice the difference.

That is all I can report for now.

Black Betty's kits make me wonder. Especially for the prices I saw. $90 shipped for about half the grounding and missing two of the most vital grounding points is kind of sad. For another $20 you can have one of mine and have definitive results.

Kits like Black Betty's do one thing VERY WELL. They muddy the reputation of a mod with serious potential. But just like intakes, you can't generalize them all together.

[S133P3R]

heres a little article about some grounding wires that were made for pennies on the dollar for a honda K20 with dyno reults.... hope this furthers the debate and spurs some investigation by some users of grounding kits.enjoy! (sorry if they are oout of order, just follow the numbers on the pics)