Found performance cams for the VH

[Clifton]

Definitely, I trust whatever mettler comes up with will be the best cam solution you can run on an otherwise stock VH45DE. I would not hesitate to question his judgment over someone else's.

I'm not trying to be mean or start something but with the questions you asked Franklin " what kind of power increases will I see", I'm not surprised. There are hundreds of headers and exhaust systems that are built without ever being dyno'd. A cam grinder isn't going to dyno an engine with each cam. They know what the stock specs are and what they can get away with. The questions should be, with X cam can I run stock springs, what will the overlap be installed straight up, same as stock? Do you have a cam card I can look at or does the cam come with a card. 6 months ago Mettler didn't know what duration was at .050" and now you are willing to trust whatever he comes up with. Try a steep solid cam ramp rate on an HLA and I'm sure the outcome won't be good. Unless he is designing a shim/bucket set up to go with it.

[Mettler]

For a street car I think Franklins cams would be my choice.

Mettler, what kind of lift do you plan to run? More than his? Also duration? He has some at 295*. Quite a bit for a street car. I also don't know how much you can increase the ramp rate with HLA's. Might be a reason he is using what he has. Admittedly, I know very little about HLA's so I could be wrong there.

Don't talk to me about duration when you have a VTC engine. Lets talk dynamic compression ratio, lift, and overlap, because it's those three factors which are relevant to designing a cam profile, and those three factors which are changing. Duration will be whatever it ends up being once I've configured the cams to meet my desired DCR.

A cam grinder isn't going to dyno an engine with each cam. They know what the stock specs are and what they can get away with. The questions should be, with X cam can I run stock springs, what will the overlap be installed straight up, same as stock? Do you have a cam card I can look at or does the cam come with a card. 6 months ago Mettler didn't know what duration was at .050" and now you are willing to trust whatever he comes up with. Try a steep solid cam ramp rate on an HLA and I'm sure the outcome won't be good. Unless he is designing a shim/bucket set up to go with it.

6 months ago Mettler DID know what duration @ .050" was, but due to conflicting information on the internet there were various values for this spec that did not add up to me. Thankfully I have a curious mind and I like to establish the hard facts, and I'm not afraid to ask questions to further my knowledge, rather than assuming I know it all. Upon doing further research I've actually found out that duration @ .050" means different things when discussing an OHV or an OHC engine (link to an article about this coming in the next few days). I bet you didn't even know that, so I'll thank you to trust me that I'm doing my research properly.

I've completely modeled all the valvetrain components and am waiting to receive my cylinder head back from the metrology calibration service, who will be supplying it with an accurate 3d map of the head & valvetrain geometry, measured using a touchprobe machine. When I say accurate, every surface (hopefully even the ports) will be mapped in 3d to 0.0004mm of accuracy.

What this means is that I'll be able to simulate, in 3d, EXACTLY what is happening in the valvetrain, and when the valve starts opening and closing, what dwell time, etc, and configure it all so that it WORKS to its absolute limits. What this means is that the cam will be developed with 20 degrees advance in mind, so the intake valve opens as early as it's physically possible without hitting the piston, it'll open as fast as possible without any interfere with the valvetrain components, it'll dwell at peak lift for as long as possible, and it'll close as fast as possible without slapping the valve against the valve seat... lastly, it'll be configured to meet a given DCR value to get maximum performance out of the 10.2:1 static compression ratio. Let me remind you that this process is considerably more advanced than what even cam grinders do, and will allow me to gain more precise and accurate timing than what you could figure out with maths, a pen & paper.

I'm hoping to get 12.7mm (1/2" valvelift) out of these cams without there being any lobe to finger rocker interference due to steep ramp rates. Also, the cams will obviously require replacement valvesprings which will be supplied with them should I decide to manufacture and sell them.

I'm doing it right, ok? I'm a New Zealander and you can trust our intelligence and engineering skills to be on the mark. I'm someone who is very passionate about my project car and these motors, and I'm actually hoping to further my knowledge in this area so I can enter into a career in this field. I'm making my own set of cams first, and will prove that they work well and make good power... and after seeing how much hassle it's going to be to do this, I'll add up whether it's going to be worthwhile going through this hassle a few more times for your benefit too.

[Clifton]

Don't talk to me about duration when you have a VTC engine. Lets talk dynamic compression ratio, lift, and overlap, because it's those three factors which are relevant to designing a cam profile, and those three factors which are changing. Duration will be whatever it ends up being once I've configured the cams to meet my desired DCR.

Ok, sounds like you are doing some research . I wasn't questioning your engineering skills or intelligence and I hope you didin't think I was.

You do kind of need to consider duration though, it will also effect overlap. Cars need to idle half way decent, unless it's an all out race cam and in that case it doesn't matter but I'm not sure the people that are waiting know that and what they are getting into if that's the case. Also .500" is alot of lift on a 4 valve head. Have you flowed a stock or ported head to see were they start leveling off on flow vs lift? You might only need .450" on a full ported head. I don't think rocker interference will be your problem on a steep ramp. Maybe I'm wrong though. I haven't researched the HLA's. I didn't see any mention, but will you also be making adjustable cam gears too?

[David Steele]

Mettler saying even with a lopey cam the VTC solenoid can make it idle like a stock camshaft.

[Mettler]

I'm not so worried about certain factors because I'm not designing the cams around those factors.

Duration on the intake cam is somewhat irrelevant. Valve opening will be entirely dependent on piston/valve clearance (assuming advance is active). Valve closure is entirely dependent on the DCR (dynamic compression ratio) that I select. This will result in a duration value that will be perfect for the 10.2:1 compression ratio of the VH45DE engine. More duration would be brilliant if we had 11.5:1 or something, but we don't, so the profiles are being designed to work properly with this compression ratio.

Exhaust cam configuration is something I have not yet put a lot of thought into as I'm still waiting for my head data, don't forget the overlap at idle will be significantly reduced thanks to the aid of VTC which will still help the engine retain a nice idle and good low end torque. I predict that the ECU will probably need retuning with the VTC activation RPMs shifted to readjust the torque & powerband.

My heads are ported and have had some combustion chamber work, but I'll be reassembling the motor with stock cams to start with so I can run it in etc. Then I'll get it dynoed, and then slap my custom cams in and dyno it again to see the difference. I agree with you that we might not even need 1/2" lift, but I'm not going to go too far into that. If I can make it have 1/2" lift, I'll do it. ^_^

Lastly, I'll post up my specs and predicted results for dissemination by the VH community too, so plenty of input will be welcome from everyone too.

No adjustable cam gears tho, and don't worry about the HLA's, they're good for a ****load of abuse.

[defrag010]

will you be implementing goodies like inverted flanks on the intake?

[Mettler]

If that's what I think it is, I first need to find out whether Franklin will be able to grind that type of profile.

[Reaction Racing]

Did anyone ever use any of these cams from Franklins?

[Reaction Racing]

Anyone use these?

[90TSIAWD]

Also wondering if anyone has made any more progress on these fronts. Also, (and yes I've searched) what about the possibility of using two sets of DOHC cams from a 4 cylinder? I haven't researched base circles, bearing surface diameters, etc. on all of them enough to see if it would work. But it doesn't seem entirely out of the question that SR, CA, KA or something else out there couldn't work. Has this been discussed somewhere that I'm missing?

[PanzerAce]

I remember reading that some parts off the SR series could be used, but I'm bettering that considering the difference in bore dia. that the bore spacing in general is going to be off as well.

That being said, if the SR or KA cams WERE drop in, that would be awesome.

On a related note, anyone know if cam blanks are available for the VH or VK engines? Considering how much I'm going to be dumping into the engine, I'm willing to spend the money for a one off custom grind.

[Bart]

Or SR cam blanksAs long as the cam journals and lobes are in the correct position.Just an example, i have an old Honda City as a run around car. and i needed a new cam shaft as a couple of lobes were chewed up, Wade camshafts in Victoria didnt have the exact cam but had an alternative Honda cam blank out of a different model Honda engine. the new cam was a little different as it had extra small lobes which operated a pollution pump. (my original cam did not have the extra small lobes) but the journals and lobes were in the correct position and the cam profile was then copied.

[PanzerAce]

Or SR cam blanksAs long as the cam journals and lobes are in the correct position.Just an example, i have an old Honda City as a run around car. and i needed a new cam shaft as a couple of lobes were chewed up, Wade camshafts in Victoria didnt have the exact cam but had an alternative Honda cam blank out of a different model Honda engine. the new cam was a little different as it had extra small lobes which operated a pollution pump. (my original cam did not have the extra small lobes) but the journals and lobes were in the correct position and the cam profile was then copied.

That's the issue though, something tells me the bore spacing is different b/w the VH and fourbanger engines, which will throw everything off.

Anyone here have a VH or VK and either a SR or KA they can measure?

[Bart]

That's the issue though, something tells me the bore spacing is different b/w the VH and fourbanger engines, which will throw everything off.

Anyone here have a VH or VK and either a SR or KA they can measure?

Bore spacing/cam length etc is most probably the issue.Being 4 cylinder to 8 cylinder may not throw anything off at all if the cams are blanks as the lobes wont exist? Just round sections where the lobes will be, they have to be machined into lobes of your choice as theyre blanks i believe

[piranhamatt]

I'm going to be timing an SR20det tonight, in the same garage as my vh. I'll sit the sr cam next to the others and snap a pic.

[PanzerAce]

Bore spacing/cam length etc is most probably the issue.Being 4 cylinder to 8 cylinder may not throw anything off at all if the cams are blanks as the lobes wont exist? Just round sections where the lobes will be, they have to be machined into lobes of your choice as theyre blanks i believe

4 vs. 8 doesn't matter in this case, since unlike a SBC or other american engines with a single camshaft running both banks, a VH/VK cam wise is essentially two inline 4s.

[90TSIAWD]

4 vs. 8 doesn't matter in this case, since unlike a SBC or other american engines with a single camshaft running both banks, a VH/VK cam wise is essentially two inline 4s.

This was essentially my logic when I first started thinking about it. If one of the various nissan 4 cyl cams (both in our case) would have material in the right spots as blanks, or better yet have material in the right spots in general then I don't see why with maybe a little machining it couldn't work. Say for instance SR cams (which would be ideal) then one could simply buy two sets of say 272 SR cams.

I'm going to be timing an SR20det tonight, in the same garage as my vh. I'll sit the sr cam next to the others and snap a pic.

That would be great! Do you happen to have a caliper or other way of making a few quick measurements as to spacing?

[Bart]

I'm going to be timing an SR20det tonight, in the same garage as my vh. I'll sit the sr cam next to the others and snap a pic.

Thake a pic and measurement where the cam gears fit onto the cam if you can Will be great to see

[Raxephon]

You guys are about to be disappointed.

SR uses HLA's and rocker arms.One cam lobe for 2 valves, 4 lobes on each camshaft.

The KA might be a little better possibility since its a cam-on-bucket design, it should have one lobe per valve.

SR20DE

KA24DE

VH45DE
Modified by Raxephon at 11:08 PM 3/23/2009

[PanzerAce]

You guys are about to be disappointed.

SR uses HLA's and rocker arms.One cam lobe for 2 valves, 4 lobes on each camshaft.

The KA might be a little better possibility since its a cam-on-bucket design, it should have one lobe per valve.

SR20DE http://www.se-r.net/about/200sx/scc/feb98/feb8.jpg

KA24DEhttp://home.comcast.net/~eddiecleveland/cam01.JPG

VH45DE]http://rowan.smugmug.com/photos/182244358-M.jpg

Well, KA cams are out if the info I found is correct. 100mm bore spacing on a KA, 112mm on a VH

[Bart]

The KA looks very promising

[90TSIAWD]

You guys are about to be disappointed.

SR uses HLA's and rocker arms.One cam lobe for 2 valves, 4 lobes on each camshaft.

The KA might be a little better possibility since its a cam-on-bucket design, it should have one lobe per valve.

Thanks for the response during my moment of not thinking. I swapped an sr into a 240sx of mine a few years back, I should've remembered the whole 1 lobe per 2 valves part... that puts a damper on things.

Anyone have any detailed measurements of a KA cam?

[offroadbob]

Here are some pics of a spare KA cam with a tape measure hope this helps

[piranhamatt]

You guys beat me to it. I was just about to post my sr cam with gear sitting in between the VH cams.

[Bart]

Here are some pics of a spare KA cam with a tape measure hope this helps

Can we compare KA with VH cams side by side?

[Raxephon]

Here's a cam from a VH45DE measured out for you guys.

The plus/minus is how many lines before or after the first measurement things came to.

In other words, if it was 2''(-3), then it was 3 lines before the two inch mark.

Sorry, but it was done with a tape measure and I usually use metric, not standard.(I want to say each line is a 32nd of an inch, but I wouldn't quote me on that at the moment)

EDIT: I added a click-able image that will bring up a full screen image, since its quite large

[PanzerAce]

Yah, looks like the VH cams have maybe another ~.5" b/w cam lobes for different cylinders, which would match up with the extra bore spacing. Looks like we're out of luck on the KA as well then.

[Mettler]

Here's a rough sketch of a blank to suit the VH41DE intake side. You'll have to excuse the s*** looking background colour, I used eDrawings 2004 to display the file because I don't currently have SW2004 installed. I'd have liked to have shown the sketch of the model because it has a lot more careful dimensions shown.

[tmorgan4]

Mettler I can post up the drawing and sketches from Solidworks if you need.

[email protected]

[Bart]

Pardon my ignorance but is Solid works a CAD program?