Forced Induction Q45 Discussion

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HeavyDuty
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SOCAL91Q45a wrote:$5k - $10 for 7-8 PSI of boost to run safely on STOCK internals seems a bit .... short sighted. I feel good about the stock crankshafts, however the rod/pistons and misc hardware concerns me in a boosted application. Id rather find a proper set of forged rods, pistons and new bearings, THEN boost it to 10+ PSI :-)

But I guess we need to start somewhere .....

Bolt it on till it blows ?


The only requiem for a change in boost would be a controller and adequate fuel & timing maps. I was thinking, quoting, etc 10k as the *first* system, others would benefit from the jigs/molds being made. Building a motor would only neccesitate a change in turbo internal configuration, and the above management changes.

On a turbo app you'd havemanifolds 2x $750 if cheap ones turbos (Turbonetics) 2x $850 t3/to4 wastegates 2x $225 (Tial)Intercooler(s) 2x $400 or 1x $6-700recircs 2x 250

That's $4850 in parts, providing you can make the intake pipe to utilize the stock single MAF.

I found out today JWT made a 5psi boost program using stock injectors & stock MAF. Only $500 for engine management, that's a steal compared to what it could have been. It would probably be sufficient for 7-8, depends on when the MAF tops out of voltage for the amount of air to achieve 8 psi. After it gets to ~4.8v, you'd have to do a twin Q MAF or Ford Cobra, Z32 MAF setup, either single or twin.

Piping labor (mandrel bent aluminized, ceramic coated, or stainless) would be estimated at 25hrs (very conservative, Merry Christmas) approx $1625 plus $300 for piping materials = $7275 barring incidentals. Add an additional $650 for installation $7925.

Once the first one was done, there would be about $1000 saving on not having to make the piping from scratch.

I'm coming up with $7925 first, $6925 subsequent, installed, with high quality parts. Don't forget about the battery relocation & clutch fan delete, necessitating electric fans.

A supercharger would be less expensive, head units are cheap, bracketry would be easy enough to do on CAD, the expense would rise if it were air/air or air/water aftercooled, but at least we know there's management available, that was a biggie.

Someone mentioned earlier that AGM & BRM (BAD) have already gone through this, it's not new. I guess the turbo part is still kind out there, but it's being worked on, too. Dunno what the story is with the BAD Vortech or Paxton car, but like all projects, they progress quickly to a certain point, then usually wind up sitting around for a while, it happens.


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1qckser
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Heavy, do you have a blown charger floating around? if so my buddys who helped me dyno the Q are all for making a bracket for a charger, or maybe Chally could contact AGM so we could maybe purchase the design he has, if someone still has a pic of his engine compartment they should post it so the other members can see it, I love my Q but for the guys I wanna hunt down being N/A aint gonna give me anything except a spankn, however a lil boost and now things are in my corner, I ran into an old man at Lebanon Valley who had a turbocharged 460 stuffed into a 1980 Ford fairmont, it was but ugly and yet ran in the low 12s with a single legger rear end, if he can turbo charge that relic we can super/turbocharge are Qs.:dogpile

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PalmerWMD
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Also lets not forget the VH45DE's stock internals are <strong>.

6 bolt main bearings w/ a girdle plus its a closed deck engine.The bolts/pistons arent weak either..Supposedly the rings arent quite as strong as the rest of the engine, but if a VQ30de can handle consistent 10+ lbs on stock internals and hard driving than the VH45de should be more than ok.

Fred...:)

AGM
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With the assistance of Chally, I will attempt to attach my old engine bay pics, prior to the intercooler set up ect.

The origional set up was fairly basic, battery goes in the boot, leaving place for a Centrifugal Supercharger. Run max 7 psi boost non intercooled.

It may be simpler for you guys in the US to get JWT to run a boost program to the ECU, rather than introducing a piggyback ECU which gets very complex and expensive.

Hopefully the pics are useful.

Regards

AGM

AGM
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The last conversation I had with JWT about ECU's (after I set up my Motec) was that they could easily could easy remamp thestock ECU for a boost program. If this is the case, it could be the cheapest option, as they were talking about still using the MAF sensor. I did not follow this any further, as I went down another track. Thought it may be useful for someone to follow up further for a cost effective boost set up.

I would actually start with a plan for the ECU (timing & fuel) before thinking about doing any plumbing.

Regards

AGM

SOCAL91Q45a
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"I ran into an old man at Lebanon Valley who had a turbocharged 460 stuffed into a 1980 Ford fairmont, it was but ugly and yet ran in the low 12s with a single legger rear end"

Hehehe ... I watched a what .... 7,500 lb Krew Kab Turbo Diesel Ford F350 with like a zillion inches of lift and 35" tires run a 12.9 1/4 mile on video.

Agreed - anythings doable if we can toss enough $$$$ at it.

BTW - HD - Great breakdown, and thats very realistic DIY estimate, for the VERY mechancially inclined, and prepared person.

$7500 - $10k is a fantabulous #.. no arguments, just shooting for more boost is all Im screamin.

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Chally
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Here's the pics of AGM's engine etc.Chally :)

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Chally
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and the other one...NB if someone wants the FULL size pics, send me an email & I'll rush them over to you. :D

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1qckser
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Quote »Hehehe ... I watched a what .... 7,500 lb Krew Kab Turbo Diesel Ford F350 with like a zillion inches of lift and 35" tires run a 12.9 1/4 mile on video.[/quote]I have that video and just looked again, he actually ran 11.42 @ 112 I think, thats just nuts in a 7000 + lb pickup truck.

Chally can you send me the full sized pics to [email protected], I thought I still had them but no luck. Thanks

DAEDALUS
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Thanks Chally. Nice work AGM!

AGM
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Chally,

Thanks for putting the pics on for me!

Regards

AGM

SOCAL91Q45a
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"I have that video and just looked again, he actually ran 11.42 @ 112 I think"

Your probably acurate - its been a few weeks since I last peeped it. I figured I'd err on the side of more realistic. Didnt figure anyone would beleive 11.42, and I didnt have the vid handy and/or stats on tap to back it up - hence the guesstimate.

That said - either time is just plain crazy madness for that truck.

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1qckser
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Nuttn like a diesel runnin 65 lbs of boost and twin turbocharged, im actually surrounded by a bunch of diesel freaks, I drove a Dodge puttn out 863 ft lbs of tq, man that thing was freakn sick, Thanks Chally and AGM the pics are sweeet.

HeavyDuty
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SOCAL91Q45a wrote:BTW - HD - very realistic DIY estimate, for the VERY mechancially inclined, and prepared person.
That's not a DIY, that's a DIFY (Do It For You) =) It's not what I/you <can> do, it's what I <do>.
SOCAL91Q45a wrote:$7500 - $10k is a fantabulous #.. no arguments, just shooting for more boost is all Im screamin.
15psi with the same turbos without reversion or high heat issues associated with overboosting is but a twist of a knob away....again... with the right foundation, adequate management & drivetrain considerations.

You & I are accustomed to swapping out a Tremec or bada$$ AOD, 9", Auburn Pro, Strange or Moser 33 spl axles, welding the begeezus out of our torque boxes, lift arms, sf connectors, 8 point cage, etc, etc, etc, most in the present company have no need or desire for such stuff & just want a real world, no compromises upgrade for the car they have, myself included. I've been down the former path & have no interest in such matters for my present driver.

1QuickSE-R, yes, I have a head unit, not blown, a Vortech T-Trim non-Q (straight cut gears, non-quiet operation) race blower, same mounting as an S-trim street legal (SQ) but with a 4" inlet ....available for the next couple of months. How long would you need it for a mock-up?

HeavyDuty
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Hey Chally, I'd like a copy too, if you don't mind.

[email protected]http://www.velocityresources.com

TIA Jason

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1qckser
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Quote »1QuickSE-R, yes, I have a head unit, not blown, a Vortech T-Trim non-Q (straight cut gears, non-quiet operation) race blower, same mounting as an S-trim street legal (SQ) but with a 4" inlet ....available for the next couple of months. How long would you need it for a mock-up?[/quote]

Just a couple of days, however im gonna hit Mustangs Unlimited today and see if one of the locals has a blown one sitting around, I wouldnt want someone to ship a perfectly good unit, the other shop that does a ton of blown Stangs and Camaroes might have one also, ill post later, but as far as bracketry goes the guys @ Performance and Styling will let me do it at the shop so it wont be a problem to do some neat stuff.:)

maxnix
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Oh, Lordy! Does this need a couple of intercoolers or what?

Maybe there is a way!

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1qckser
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Low boost with a lil methanol injection might be nice, or we can try to figure out a location for decent sized intercooler, someon suggested a dual setup like the 300ZXTT, anything is possible with a lil american know how. Here is some motivation for use.

http://www.swiftracing.com/pic...8.avih ... m/main.htm

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1qckser
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Did you see how the 540 destroyed that .:owneds4, if not keep lookn in the site and you will find the video clips

maxnix
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One thing I did see was single digit MPG.

I think I like the stock Q45 better all the time for real world use.__________________Brian1995 Q45 & Q45t & 2000 Q45

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PalmerWMD
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dkill wrote:Would i be wrong to assume the following...

We can assume the VH45 is a 300 hp engine, with the JWT ecu.. the 540i and gs are both around there. so with a similar supercharged setup, we would be around 400-450 hp?


A properly running early VH45de is 317hp and 337 lb-ft with JWT ECU.

That hp number sounds very achievable.

Fred...:)

maxnix
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dkill wrote:If a JWT boost program ecu was devised, would I be correct to assume the following....

The ecu would remove all safety and optimize settings like the original ecu did.
JWT reduces the safety margin from 15% to 10%, maybe 5% at some specific loads. 0% safety is exactly that, a failure.__________________Brian1995 Q45 & Q45t & 2000 Q45

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IvoryJ30t
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im still in favor of the VG and a 5 speed. those heavy q's of yours need a little diet...

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Chally
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The VG's are to much maintence for me but yes you can get the power, but they are no where near as strong as the Q45's.When boosting the VG's they tend to blow head gaskets. You also need Cam Belts every 60,000 miles & they are a bugger to work on! I had a VG30DET & yes it was nice & went OK, but the Q's motor is so much torquier & revs the same, that I had to sell the VG (Cima) & keep the Q. :D

HeavyDuty
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One caveat, as I learn more about this VH45, is that the VVT increases the overlap or time the exhaust valve is still open while the intake is opening, (8 deg overlap vs 28 deg) great for scavenging & all motor, but in a boosted app, if that is how ours works, it's going to blow boost right through the head & into the exhaust manifold until the exhaust valve closes.

Comments, corrections, objections?

The JWT ecu with boost would still bump the rev limiter higher, and optimize the tuning for 92 or 93 octane, depending on where you live, but you wouldn't want an all motor program for boost.

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1qckser
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Heavy, may be Dennis can tell use how hard it is to degree the exhaust cams :jawdrop: I thinks probably not worth it but if im thinkn correctly that would solve some of the overlap problem, we just did it to a SR20DET that had Crane cams installed, after all was said and done he put down 379 hp on the same dyno I used.

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Chally
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For forced induction, the standard cams are normally OK. If you didn't want the VVT to work, you'd just remove the plugs from the VVT solenoids & see if it helps performance, then you can get the computer adjusted to start them when you want etc.

AGM
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With the additional power, suspension and brake upgrades my Q45 'feels' like a smaller car, as it takes off and pulls through the corners like a lighter car. Everyone who has driven it say that they can't believe how it handles for such a big heavy car.

Regards

AGM

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AZhitman
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Chally or AGM - Can you ship me those pics as well?

I am *secretly* working on a parallel project that will be revealed soon... :firedevil

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AZhitman
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OK, OK, OK. After much cajoling from dkill, here's the scoop - And I'm gonna need HELP with this. The project is in severe danger.

First of all, the B.A.D. Q45 is still in existence.

The GOOD news: I have first rights of ownership to it, per Rex, and he needs to get rid of it. It has the prototype SC on it (of which only one was made) as well as the JWT ECU (remapped for the SC @ 6-8 lbs boost. The car is nothing special, a grey/grey 92 with 138K on it that has rarely if ever been garaged. Complete, but tired, and hasn't run for 2+years.

The BAD news: Someone else wants it. A guy in CA wants to purchase the car JUST to get the SC. He allegedly wants to replicate the design, but we all know that the costs for that could get astronomical, and my guess after talking to him for over an hour is that once it's his, it ain't going to a shop - it's going on his Q (he has 2). Preliminary quotes are $2K to make molds, another $3000 or more to replicate another unit off of it, and then you have pulleys, ECU remapping, plumbing, and other costs. Rex has told him very clearly that I have first dibs, and is being very patient with me.

I can buy the car for $2500 and have it shipped to AZ ($700 shipping). SC won't be sold seperately, as Rex wants the garage space. At this point, I'm tempted to just buy it, replace the plenum and ECU, sell the car to recoup some investment, and install it on my Q (and go Beemer-hunting).

What we really need is someone with more connections and financial wherewithal than me (I'm eminently poor) to map this out, and I'll work with them to get the SC replicated. One way or the other, I'm winding up with a SC, but I don't want to do it the nasty selfish way.

What I'd prefer to see is more than one of us benefit from it. Any ideas?


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