Extending UI and tax breaks?

[AZhitman]

Found it.

A lot of states have unemployment criteria that states if you receive a job offer with a pay rate that's a certain percent BELOW what you were making before, you don't have to accept it, and you can just keep on collecting checks.

Getting a $185/week check and passing on a $215/week job offer because you USED TO MAKE $260 a week is pure entitlement bullcrap.

TAKE the job, get off the damn dole, contribute something to society, and STFU about your damn check that you've gotten for TWO years (99 weeks).

Go ahead and piss away my kids' future because you're concerned about votes. I'm done trying to explain why it's a BAD idea.

I wonder how many of you [who support ANOTHER extension of UI] send money to starving kids in other countries? Better yet, how many have you done something for the "starving" in THIS country? Oh yeah - it's all well and good when it's not YOUR money (or you're too blind to figure out that it is, in effect, YOUR money. And mine).

Human beings are resilient. They FIND A WAY.

A little story for you: I used to carry a caseload of SMI clients. One of my goals was to see them ALL gainfully employed. "But I'm disabled!" they'd whine. I was relentless. You want a ride to your next doc appointment? You want a foodbox from the food bank? You want me to help you apply for Section 8? Then your a$$ is going to Voc Rehab. EVERYONE is employable.

One of my favorite clients was an Indian guy (dot, not feather) who had - yep - no arms, no legs. Born that way. Guess what he does now? Works for Discover Card as a supervisor in their call center. *I* helped him get there. You think he listens to any whining from his underlings? Hell no.

Once they got stable on their meds for a predetermined period of time, I'd arrange for them to be de-certified. Guess what? No more SSDI check every month. They knew that date was coming, so they busted a$$ to get the skills necessary to be employed. EVERYONE is employable.

Yes, I understand we're in a recession.

But there's NO motivation to pound the pavement right now!!!

OK, here: Joe made $20 an hour as a framer. He's laid off, because we're not building anything. Haven't for some time. His take-home pay was $536 a week. His UI check is $8-% of that, or $428 a week. Now, Joe doesn't have to put gas in his old F-150 every Monday (saving $63). He can eat at home now, but he always packed his lunch 4 days out of the week... He'd hit Burger King with the guys once a week. Joe likes his cup of Joe in the morning, so he'd hit the Chevron and drop $5 a week on coffee. No more!

Now, riddle me this: Is it worth an extra $35 a week to get up, shower, shave, drive in traffic, deal with a boss, sweat, pass a drug test, go to work every day? Good luck getting Joe off the couch now.

BTW, his wife is happy, because he's helping around the house. He actually COOKED last Thursday! She doesn't have to wash his nasty work clothes, and he can help the kids with their homework when they get home.

OH - wait, I forgot one part: Joe does ONE side job a month. He makes MORE money sitting at home.

Yeah, you go ahead and support those unemployment extensions. Joe's counting on you.

[audtatious]

Don't it tweak your melon that others are sitting around, surfing the net, watching cable tv, relaxing 24x7 for almost 2 whole years while you bust your a** at a job AND you know you will have to cover that same person in retirement via medicaid/welfare?

[AZhitman]

Oh, I'm not done.

I'm waiting for Sally Struthers to come wandering back in and accuse me of murdering babies.

[stebo0728]

How about the people on UI, refusing to take employment UNLESS its cash only, so they can still collect UI. I heard about that today, some employers actually have some jobs available and cant fill them unless they agree to pay people cash, which they cant do, so the job goes unfilled, while the lazy people we've created sit by collecting UI longer and longer due to bleeding hearts

[WDRacing]

Oh, I'm not done.

I'm waiting for Sally Struthers to come wandering back in and accuse me of murdering babies.

I sent him those pics of us murdering colored babies and saving the white ones

Remember that thread I made about the slippery slope of socialism? This is how it catches hold. Don't teach people to fish, give them JUST enough fish to keep them under control.

[audtatious]

The problem we have is weeding out the lazy. There are towns that have been decimated with manufacturing moving overseas and it's heartbreaking seeing these proud people, who want to work and don't like handouts, having to rely on UI. Extending UI would help some of these people who are honestly hard working Americans. Then you have the worthless who want UI for a free ride.

Watched a show last night that detailed the last days of the Hooker furniture factory in Martinsville a bit ago. Hooker could not compete with companies buying cheap product from overseas and selling it so they had to close all their US factories and move their facilities to Malaysia and elsewhere. The other US manufacturers have had to do the same thing. I'm all for free trade but when you have countries like China artificially keeping their currency low and you have these other countries who do not have to deal with EPA nor minimum wage, etc. it puts us at a huge disadvantage to compete.

[WDRacing]

How do we change that though Matt? I'm all for keeping business right here, but there is a lot of money in importing etc, enough to buy 5-10 Senators most likely. We could tax the hell out of everything imported. But then the price of products here at home is gonna sky rocket, since we're used to lead based Chinese baby formula and whatnot.

[stebo0728]

America is stuck in a bit of a transitional stage. We are no longer the industrial manufacturing nation that we used to be, but we have yet to transcend into the technological, society advancing nation that we should be now. China is now the superpower manufacturing nation, and theres nothing wrong with that as long as their products are safe and reliable. Theres nothing wrong with importing, theres nothing unpatriotic about it. But at the same time, we cant keep ourselves bent over a barrel with completely insufficient standards of education as to keep ourselves from transcending to that next level.

[stebo0728]

And also, international trade should be a power struggle between innovation and taxation. To be successful, a modest, but not too overbearing tax should be placed on all imports, and additionally incentives should be made to encourage the exporting of products. This does 2 things, it encourages domestic consumption of products, improving the domestic economy, while enticing international sales of our products. However, assuming other nations tow this same line, we therefore have to strive to improve our products enough that they become marketable internationally regardless of the import taxes in the destination country. Now its possible to be internationally successful and entering trade agreements with nations that basically say, "I wont tax your imports if you dont tax mine" which can be acceptable agreements either as a one stop policy for all products, or surgical policies affecting only products we want to export, and returning to taxing products we dont want imported.

[IBCoupe]

A lot of states have unemployment criteria that states if you receive a job offer with a pay rate that's a certain percent BELOW what you were making before, you don't have to accept it, and you can just keep on collecting checks.

Getting a $185/week check and passing on a $215/week job offer because you USED TO MAKE $260 a week is pure entitlement bullcrap.

If it's seen as a temporary dip in the economy, I fail to see how this is a bad policy. I really don't think that policy was aimed at people who earned $13,000 year, Greg. It's probably more for the people who turn down a $215/week job in order to continue searching for a replacement $550/week job.

I wonder how many of you [who support ANOTHER extension of UI] send money to starving kids in other countries? Better yet, how many have you done something for the "starving" in THIS country? Oh yeah - it's all well and good when it's not YOUR money (or you're too blind to figure out that it is, in effect, YOUR money. And mine).

I used to do both 'til money and time got tight. What now, Captain Irrelevant?

Yes, I understand we're in a recession.

Great, then you understand that this argument wouldn't be happening otherwise, right? There'd be no push for an extension of UI benefits absent the economic downturn that has put us in a place where there's one job for every five people on UI (not to mention the people who aren't still on UI but who nonetheless have no job).

]But there's NO motivation to pound the pavement right now!!!

Even if that's true, that isn't really the problem we face right now. Suppose we didn't extend it. Suppose we did away with UI altogether. There'd be every incentive to go out and look for work, right? There'd be every incentive to take whatever job you can.

But there aren't enough jobs. The vast majority of people out there that you're all complaining about can't actually go and get the jobs you're telling them they should, because they don't exist.. I'm gonna go ahead and post this user comment on a local newspaper's website when they published an op-ed entitled "Remembering the Stigma of Unemployment:"

The advertisement said there were 5 openings, in my field, which I had trained in taken years worth of classes, bought my own tools, was a faithful employee. I was hopeful, filled the pickup truck with gas, using most of the last remaining cash from my last 99th week unemployment check. Wanted to be there early the ad said opening at 8 am, not knowing the area that well I left early drove the 80 miles across the state line. Can you begin to feel the feelings that I had when I arrived at 7:15am only to see more than 500 people already waiting in the line? At 12:15 I was still about 50 people from the front of the line, when they posted a sign on the door that no more applications would be handed out. So I drove home past the Wal-mart that is not hiring. Past the McDonald's that everyone in here keeps saying I should be willing to work for, who told me that there was no way they could hire me as I was not only over educated for the jobs there but that there was no point in training someone who would leave them if a different job came up. I only put out 2500 resumes across the country, filled in 846 job applications. Perhaps you are all right I have been spending too much time on my couch "enjoying my vacation". In the mean time please do not wake me sleeping in my truck there in the parking lot and I will try not to be a burden.

Now, riddle me this: Is it worth an extra $35 a week to get up, shower, shave, drive in traffic, deal with a boss, sweat, pass a drug test, go to work every day? Good luck getting Joe off the couch now.

BTW, his wife is happy, because he's helping around the house. He actually COOKED last Thursday! She doesn't have to wash his nasty work clothes, and he can help the kids with their homework when they get home.

OH - wait, I forgot one part: Joe does ONE side job a month. He makes MORE money sitting at home.

And eventually Joe's unemployment benefits will run out. Maybe Joe's just lucky that he was laid off during a recession, but nobody's saying that these should be permanently available to him. One in five, Greg.

[IBCoupe]

America is stuck in a bit of a transitional stage. We are no longer the industrial manufacturing nation that we used to be, but we have yet to transcend into the technological, society advancing nation that we should be now. China is now the superpower manufacturing nation, and theres nothing wrong with that as long as their products are safe and reliable. Theres nothing wrong with importing, theres nothing unpatriotic about it. But at the same time, we cant keep ourselves bent over a barrel with completely insufficient standards of education as to keep ourselves from transcending to that next level.

America's position as the manufacturing leader is in decline right now, sure, but that's only in certain fields. Yeah, we don't make the world's tee-shirts or scissors anymore. Because we've got a higher standard of living, we've got higher wages, and we just can't compete. The types of manufacturing that produce products from lots of cheap labor are disappearing.

But the types of manufacturing that require high skill and constant innovation still belong to the United States. We're still the top.

NPR's Planet Money had a good piece about it here.

[stebo0728]

Great, then you understand that this argument wouldn't be happening otherwise, right? There'd be no push for an extension of UI benefits absent the economic downturn that has put us in a place where there's one job for every five people on UI (not to mention the people who aren't still on UI but who nonetheless have no job).

Yes and no. The economy may be the cause of the extension of UI benefits, but I have a sneaking suspicion that now that they overextension is here, its here to stay. Thats how things seem to work now. So maybe we wouldnt be having this argument had the economy not gone sour, but now that we're having it, Im rather confident we will continue having it well into the future, even when the economy recovers. UI has become an entitlement, and I wouldnt be surprised to see a push for extending it indefinitely when all is said and done.

[IBCoupe]

I really doubt that it is here to stay, but since we're both theorizing about what's going to happen, let's just leave it at that.

[audtatious]

How do we change that though Matt? I'm all for keeping business right here, but there is a lot of money in importing etc, enough to buy 5-10 Senators most likely. We could tax the hell out of everything imported. But then the price of products here at home is gonna sky rocket, since we're used to lead based Chinese baby formula and whatnot.

It's a catch-22 but obviously the current path we are on is being destructive to our society. Think about what is happening and look at the way cheap labor has all moved to less developed or less "environmentally caring" countries. You have those who can adjust to the new model making money off imports and sales while you have those who are no longer able to work having to leach off those who actually have money. As time grows and more product become "globalized" there are less and less of our citizens needed for those jobs locally, thus, more leaching off fewer. As kids are born and raised up in this environment is pushes more entitlement mentality. In effect, what we are starting to see nation wide could potentially be what started the ghetto mentality that is killing the inner city.

On top of that we have the illegal issue going on where the bleeding hearts feel they are not competition for the US worker because a poor US citizen would not do such a demeaning job. Might be somewhat true due to the above entitlement mentality but it's hardly the case overall.

At what point do we make a hard decision? At what point does holding the US to a higher standard become so destructive that there is no US anymore?

[WDRacing]

Like I said in some other thread, I think we'd be far better off as a group of states, not governed by any Fed Gov. Why do you need a fed gov if you have a state gov? I mean, that's just fraud waste and abuse imho.

[IBCoupe]

What would be different?

[bigbadberry3]

Anybody:

Surprised?

Pleased?

I am neither.

[stebo0728]

Certainly not surprise.

Not pleased that UI was extended.

Pleased that at least tax cuts are going a bit more, will be happier when they are made permanent.

Extremely pleased that the omnibus spending bill was killed.

Now wondering what dynamic the tax cuts will bring to the 2012 campaign since we will once again be pushing for either another extension or a renewed push for permanence.

EDIT: Also pleased that the death tax rate and exemption level stayed put. Be happier when the death tax goes away, but at least it didnt get worse.

[AZhitman]

I'm ecstatic.

I'm thinking I'll write a letter to the President. See, when I sent money to Botswana, I at least got a picture of the little barefoot starving girl that I was helping...

Where's my picture, Barry? I want a picture of the able-bodied 30-something sitting on his couch playing video games. I need to feel good about where my money is going. C'mon, Barry - hook a brotha up.

[srellim234]

Which Wall Street multimillionaire executive's picture did the Republicans send you?

[AZhitman]

None - They don't have time for such frivolities as "appreciation".

[audtatious]

Which Wall Street multimillionaire executive's picture did the Republicans send you?

I tried to get one but was told they were all Democrats

[srellim234]

You were told incorrectly. Cheney absolutely would not have surrounded himself with only Democrats at Halliburton. Unless the Democrats know more about business than Republicans give them credit for.

[audtatious]

Halliburton....reaching deep into that bag are we? The Clinton's and quite a few Democrat elite all had stock in Halliburton so they must have been just as bad as Bush and Cheney.

[heliochrome85]

Which Wall Street multimillionaire executive's picture did the Republicans send you?

WIN

[AZhitman]

Yes, d!ck Cheney is the owner, CEO and all the stakeholders of Halliburton rolled into one person.

It's also well-known that Cheney is the only multi-millionaire politician in the US.

Most importantly, the Vice-President has immeasurable power and influence in our universe.



Steve, you're gonna pull a muscle stretching so far.

[srellim234]

Too bad you're so blinded by partisanship that you don't recognize the tremendous amount of your taxpayer money directed to his friends from Halliburton the "no-bid" contracts in the war zones were. It is NOT a stretch. Everyone knows that at that point in the administration Cheney was the power behind Bush's throne.

The "conservatives" on this forum are simply wonderful at turning a blind eye to their own in their quest to belittle, ridicule and criticize the other side. Republicans and Democrats are BOTH guilty of the offenses; try being objective and fair sometime.

[AZhitman]

Settle down, Sparky - I'm no GOP'er, so your argument is leaky.

In fact, I'm sick of both sides (even more intensely-so this week).

YOU were the one who read "wall street multimillionaire" and thought of ONE person (a Republican).... not me. Perhaps it's you who's being subjective.

I think the "no war for oil" nonsense went out of vogue ten years ago. Sorry.

p.s. The current Administration is still at war... continuing the "failed policies of the past 8 years". Miraculously, it's no longer for oil, right?

[audtatious]

Halliburton had the infrastructure to support Gov requirements. If the Gov had decided to use multiple companies it would have cost taxpayers quite a bit more for the services they provided in Iraq/Afghanistan. The current Administration is delving out no-bid's as well. They dumped a $25 million contract to Checchi & Company Consulting (a Dem supporter I understand) to provide "rule of law stabilization services" in Afghanistan. We all know there are quite a number of companies that provide such services, unlike the original Halliburton contracts, so why no bid on this one after the President spent so much time proposing up legislation stating that anything over $25k can no longer be no-bid?

Both sides do it. That's not an excuse, just a fact. While on the outside it may be suspect as to Halliburton getting their initial contracts it's not surprising and no one who has complained has been able to point out a firm who at the time could have done it.

[srellim234]

Bechtel Industries