(Edited title) GW's rubber stamp.

[rn79870]

WASHINGTON - President Bush on Monday approved the execution of an Army private, the first time in over a half-century that a president has affirmed a death sentence for a member of the U.S. military.

With his signature from the Oval Office, Bush said yes to the military's request to execute Ronald A. Gray, the White House confirmed. Gray had had been convicted in connection with a spree of four murders and eight rapes in the Fayetteville, N.C., area over eight months in the late 1980s while stationed at Fort Bragg.

"While approving a sentence of death for a member of our armed services is a serious and difficult decision for a commander in chief, the president believes the facts of this case leave no doubt that the sentence is just and warranted," White House press secretary Dana Perino said.

In the military courts, "Private Gray was convicted of committing brutal crimes, including two murders, an attempted murder and three rapes. The victims included a civilian and two members of the Army. ... The president's thoughts and prayers are with the victims of these heinous crimes and their families and all others affected."

Unlike in the civilian courts, a member of the U.S. armed forces cannot be executed until the president approves the death sentence. Gray has been on death row at the U.S. Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., since April 1988.

Members of the U.S. military have been executed throughout history, but just 10 have been executed by presidential approval since 1951 when the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the military's modern-day legal system, was enacted into law.

Okay, maybe this moron had it coming, but seriously, the Texacutioner has found something he enjoys doing.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...ion_6

[heliochrome85]

i dont think its right to say, he enjoys it. from all accounts ive readl, this guy was a bad guy who i guess has earned it. that being said, im against capitol punishment. i dont think anyone has the right to take a life. including government. in many cases, its much more painful for the person to live with the shame of their crime, then to take the easy way out and be executed.

and yes, im against executing terrorists, and child molesters.

this has to be one of the toughest decisions President Bush has had to make. you have to admit that.

[rn79870]

Texacutioner served as the last court of appeal for 153 men and women – and sent 152 of them to their graves. According to his appointment logs, it rarely took more than 30 minutes for Bush to declare "nothing excessive" in those particular sentences.

[srellim234]

I agree. As much as I think Bush is an incompetent and letting others in his administration run wild with their own agendas, I don't believe this is a decision he takes lightly.

I look at this and think:

Whether or not you agree with capital punishment, how can our system allow sentences not to be resolved for over 20 years? The system is clearly broken.

Unless you can figure out some way for a prisoner with "life imprisonment, no parole" to be productive in some way (job, speaking about his mistakes to younger people, etc.) why feed 'em?

[rn79870]

I agree with your comments about having a life without that was really life without. I realize that there are times where there is no option other than execution, but not in the case of the majority of the cases.

The other problem I have is that the list of countries who sanction execution is getting smaller and smaller. We're not in the company of countries like Iraq, North Korea, China, etc. It doesn't reflect well on us and the level of society we have supposedly reached.

[AZhitman]

Bob, I normally chalk your posts up to a different POV but I still respect them...

But I think you're WAY off-base on this one.

What difference does it make what the convicted man did for a living? If he was a car salesman this thread wouldn't exist.

Then again, car salesmen...

Guy had a fair trial. Smarter folks than us (and GWB) tried, convicted and sentenced him.

Food for thought, lest we (meaning you) wind up in a hypocritical quandry:

For someone who paints the prez as "an idiot", how could he profess to know better than all the esteemed professionals in the Judicial Branch preceding him?

That'd be pretty arrogant, wouldn't it?

Hmmmm?

[Marenta]

I'm just wondering, do you guys know what a Court Marshal is supposed to be like? Whether it was General or Specific?

A Court Marshal is a fickle judicial proceeding and is unlike any civil matter. Although, he appealed it, and it went to the supreme court and got declined, the preceedings are entirely different.

Just throwing that out there. Not saying that you guys aren't jive turkey enough to dig up some random doctrine and figure this crap out.

[srellim234]

Life without parole is still capital punishment. It just usually takes longer for the prisoner to die.

[smockers83]

Why in the world are we even talking about this situation like this? Honestly? This could be another thread and/or title bred to create unneeded discussion. If Bush really liked doing this, he would have done it more often in 8 years. C'mon people, lets think about things rationally here, okay?

[Cold_Zero]

Agreed,Welcome to the Uniform Code of Military Justice."Maybe this moron had it coming?" Bob, do we have to have a moral compass check? This guy is a sick sick man. Two deaths, one attempted murder and three rapes perpetrated in 8 months? Time to pull out the firing squad gear at Fort Leavenworth and dust it off. bud

[rn79870]

Why in the world are we even talking about this situation like this? Honestly? This could be another thread and/or title bred to create unneeded discussion.

What's unneeded about it? Feel free not to participate.

A Court Marshal is a fickle judicial proceeding and is unlike any civil matter. Although, he appealed it, and it went to the supreme court and got declined, the proceedings are entirely different.

I agree, the UCMJ provides far fewer safeguards than the constitution provides a citizen. To few in fact, to allow a soldier to face capital punishment. He lacks, among other things, a chain of review including state appellate and supreme courts. Often State constitutions provide safeguards more stringent than the federal ones. Too few safeguards equal too many questionable verdicts.

...What difference does it make what the convicted man did for a living? If he was a car salesman this thread wouldn't exist...

Normally nothing. But in this case, it required a venue for the defendant that cost him many of his constitutional rights. I would feel better if he had been tried in the Federal Court system or even some state court.

[Cold_Zero]

I agree, the UCMJ provides far fewer safeguards than the constitution provides a citizen. To few in fact, to allow a soldier to face capital punishment. He lacks, among other things, a chain of review including state appellate and supreme courts. Often State constitutions provide safeguards more stringent than the federal ones. Too few safeguards equal too many questionable verdicts.

You do realize that members of our Armed Forces have fewer rights than the rest of the Citizenry in this country? Bob, being a 'brat' like me, you had to know that growing up.bud

[AZhitman]

I'm fine with our military being held to a higher standard than the general populace, and so are they.

He knew that when he enlisted. He knew that when he committed the crimes. And he'll know it when they throw the switch.

My only gripe is my tax money keeping him alive since '88.

Tacky OP, Bob.

[rn79870]

Yep, I do at that. It's when they are sentenced to death that I think those rights need to be extended to at least the same rights a normal (arguably) citizen would receive.

I just find it pathetic that GW has been one of the most prolific "executioners" in our time.

[rn79870]

It's not a matter of a higher standard AZ, it's a matter of providing them with a uniform set of constitutional protections when it comes to taking their life. That trial should have been in a Federal Court, not a Military one.

[AZhitman]

WASHINGTON - President Bush on Monday approved the execution of an Army private, the first time in over a half-century that a president has affirmed a death sentence for a member of the U.S. military.

How is a one time event "prolific"?

And if you're gonna prattle on about nonmilitary TX inmates' sentences not being commuted, I'd ask again:

For someone who paints the prez as "an idiot", how could he profess to know better than all the esteemed professionals in the Judicial Branch preceding him?

[AZhitman]

It's not a matter of a higher standard AZ, it's a matter of providing them with a uniform set of constitutional protections when it comes to taking their life. That trial should have been in a Federal Court, not a Military one.

Then you need to take issue with the UCMJ. Not the president.

FYI: UMCJ came into being when the White House was occupied by a Democrat.

[Cold_Zero]

The skipper of the GW and his XO lost their jobs over a fire.http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/...yview

I am sure that punishment is too harsh then. Since these guys probably had no say when they went through the Admiral's Mast. The Navy has a long tradition of "if it happens on your watch/command, its your **** up." The commander can be sitting in your rack and your sub runs a ground (Greenville) and its still your fault.bud

[rn79870]

But in all fairness. They assume responsibility and fall on their sword like the good officers they are, yet the CIC, who has failed so miserably, stays in command. Hypocrisy.

And as a second point, they aren't asking for the death penalty for those two officers are they?

[Cold_Zero]

I dont know, $70 million dollars in damages, loss of a Carrier for some time, delay in relieving the Kittyhawk stationed in Yokosuka, and delay decom'ing the ****ykitty.

Maybe they should seek the death penalty? j/k

[rn79870]

2 O6s bit the dust and retired to what, 60+k a year and full benefits?

[Marenta]

Hey now.. don't start me in on the USS GW. The CO and the XO had it coming.

I can tell you exactly how and why, and I can tell you EXACTLY how that fire got started. What you hear on the news and the media, WRONG. They don't even know 1% of what really happened. Unless you actually work down in those spaces and know what it's like down there, you don't even have a clue how it goes.

So, I can fill you all in, in excruciating detail, about the fire. And, about why the CO and XO deserved to get relieved/fired, or you can just trust that what the Navy did was right. By the way, the USS TR's CO temporarily took command of the GW, because the TR is the most squared away ship in the fleet.

http://www.navy.mil/search/dis...38840

[Edit: By the way.. J.R. Haley was the best damned Skipper I ever had.. him and Captain Helstern, my Reactor Officer, were two officers I would serve under any day.]
Modified by Marenta at 2:53 PM 7/31/2008

[wingFeather]

Is there any way to "ignore" a user on this forum? I'm beginning to think that "rn79870" has lost his mind & fallen completely out of the realm of reality.

GW hasn't found a new way to "off" soldiers. This power has been there, and any responsible leader would sign his/her name, too. I know I would give the final okay to execute a nutjob mass murderer!

But I guess murderers are sacred to you, rn79870? If so, be my guest & take them into your home, read to them, and enlighten them that their behavior is wrong. Be the change you would like to see in the world. What Would Obama Do?

[AZhitman]

Bobby's ignoring me now... much easier to change the subject.

Obama knows more than the seasoned Generals and military commanders... Bob knows more than the CIC, the JAG and the entire Navy.

Sensing a parallel here....

[AZhitman]

And, about why the CO and XO deserved to get relieved/fired, or you can just trust that what the Navy did was right.

Hell, I could tell you that by reading the article. Sounds like the CO failed to comply with widely-known regulations.

Guess I should feel bad when one of my investigations (and the factual evidence it uncovers) leads to the firing of a high-ranking government official...

....Nah.

[96Qowner]

Is there any way to "ignore" a user on this forum? I'm beginning to think that "rn79870" has lost his mind & fallen completely out of the realm of reality.

I'm starting to feel that way, too. The board's moderator posts as if he was a blind partisan. It feels more and more like "Bob's Personal Bush-bashing/Obama-worshiping Board".

I guess we could always rename it.

[Marenta]

Hell, I could tell you that by reading the article. Sounds like the CO failed to comply with widely-known regulations.

Guess I should feel bad when one of my investigations (and the factual evidence it uncovers) leads to the firing of a high-ranking government official...

....Nah.

The problem with disclosing the information I know is just how much I should disclose. Generally, when you're in a position of power, you accept the responsibility of the personnel under you, and their decisions. However, when you, yourself know about those decisions, and you fully understand the implications of the actions you are carrying out or having carried out; then you fully accept the responsibility and, not just interim, but in truth.

The difference between the GW and the TR is like night and day. The GW's had ORSE and INSERV done, and all of these "tests" (for lack of a better term) have been lies. DC has been pushing for the GW to go to Japan so much so, that the personnel that administer these "tests" have been forced to look over the real problems and just lie about the fact that the ship is indeed ready to go over to Japan for a long period of time without shore facilities to support it. Which is inherently false. I can, on a number of occasions, recall how my liberty (when I got it), was canceled because the GW (which was parked right next to the TR in the Shipyard in Portsmouth) had major accidents. And, they had had so many problems, they actually came to our ship begging for our help. When I went on board their ship to assist, the place was a wreck! It was absolutely bonkers! I couldn't find anything I needed. No supplies. Nothing was calibrated. No maintenance was performed. Nothing was in specifications. Nothing had had a daily check performed on it. Where, on the TR, if it was a minute past midnight and if it wasn't done; God, the Devil, and all the Heavens would smite you down.

The CO and the XO were complaisant, they liked the laid back, no-nonsense attitude, and fostered that work ethic. And, what did it get them? A fire that took out the entire back half of the ring bus, 3C shaft alley with 2 Reboiler along with 2 and 3 EDGs. So, yes, they deserve it.

[Edit: I'm going to shut the fcsk up now.]

[rn79870]

I'm starting to feel that way, too. The board's moderator posts as if he was a blind partisan. It feels more and more like "Bob's Personal Bush-bashing/Obama-worshiping Board".

I guess we could always rename it.

And you, with your head in the sand, hearing only what you want to hear and ignoring the rest are calling the kettle black. I'd appreciate it if you would take any critisms to the other forum where I'm free to express myself.

[rn79870]

Bobby's ignoring me now... much easier to change the subject.

Obama knows more than the seasoned Generals and military commanders... Bob knows more than the CIC, the JAG and the entire Navy.

Sensing a parallel here....

I'm trying to figure out where I'm ignoring you. Perhaps it's because the UCMJ isn't the same UCMJ that you're referring to, in that it's been revised more times than either of us can count.

Let's let the military play judicial branch, that's reasonable, they're certainly skilled and trained to do so.

I think this started as a comment on the texecutioner. A person who probably has the record for quickest review of a capital sentence, and most executions on his watch. I'm not against Bush, it's just that I'm at a loss for anything that he's done that has been, well, reasonable and fair.

Finally, it was a Republican that brought the death penalty back..In 1983, the Armed Forces Court of Appeals held in U.S. v. Matthews, 16 M.J. 354, that military capital sentencing procedures were unconstitutional for failing to require a finding of individualized aggravating circumstances. In 1984, the death penalty was reinstated when President Ronald Reagan signed an executive order adopting detailed rules for capital courts-martial. Among the rules was a list of 11 aggravating factors that qualify defendants for death sentences.

And another reason why it's fairness is questionable.

In a military capital case, the convening authority -- a high ranking commanding officer who decides to bring the case to a court martial -- decides if the death penalty will be sought. Once decided, the convening authority picks those servicemembers who will serve as panel members/jurors. One requirement for the panel is that if the accused so chooses, at least 1/3 of the panel must consist of enlisted personnel. The only other requirement of a panel is that it consist of at least five members. Therefore, the number of panelists in a military death penalty case can vary from case to case. Although no state provides for a panel of less than 12 jurors in a capital case, military appellate courts have rejected challenges to capital court-martialed panels with fewer than 12 members. (see, e.g., United States v. Curtins, 32 M.J. 252 (C.M.A.), cert denied, 502 U.S. 952 (1991)).

Let's see. Let the "convening authority" (like the District attorney here) pick the jury. That's unconscionable. Let's allow it with as few as 5 jurors... Makes one of those 11-1 hung juries less likely doesn't it.

[rn79870]

Is there any way to "ignore" a user on this forum? I'm beginning to think that "rn79870" has lost his mind & fallen completely out of the realm of reality.

GW hasn't found a new way to "off" soldiers. This power has been there, and any responsible leader would sign his/her name, too. I know I would give the final okay to execute a nutjob mass murderer!

But I guess murderers are sacred to you, rn79870? If so, be my guest & take them into your home, read to them, and enlighten them that their behavior is wrong. Be the change you would like to see in the world. What Would Obama Do?

In as much as you've missed the entire point, I'm at a loss to help you out here. I'd suggest starting again, from the top.