Drafting into the military

[The Mic]

I really doubt there would be a draft. If there was I would do one of two things. Volunteer, or march straight into DC with demands for the return of government to it's rightful place. That would be, "We the People".

here's something for thought......

Now that the Army is integrated, IF there's a draft...

How could they NOT draft girls as equally as males?

Forget Elvis. I would LOVE seeing Reese Witherspoon forced into doing her duty. Or Jessica Simpson.

Fair is fair, is it not?

[ilovedrifting]

ROFLthat would be awesome

[StrangeLove]

Now i know you don't agree with the war, but surely you'd help the country in wich you live and you love. America needs us and if there is a draft if you are drafted, you need to go and do your duty as an american

America needs us? Lmao, how does America needs us if we are fighting to free the oppressed people of Iraq? Wouldn't Iraq needs us?

I love the way Bush switched from Osama, to Saddam/WMDs, to freeing an oppressed people... WHAT AN AWESOME PRESIDENT

[gabossie]

I would give my life to protect our country in a heartbeat, no questions asked. I would not on the other hand, go and fight in Iraq. Should this become a reality (unlikely), I will object, be charged with a felony, and go to jail.

Jesda, I love you man, but you're as much of a conspiracy theorist as some of the worst libs, just on the opposite side of the fence. It's not the draft proposal that bothers me really, as that was pretty much a farce, but there is plenty of evidence in the form of ammendments to the selective service policies that show the potential for a draft in the near future if things don't change directions.

[The Mic]

America needs us? Lmao, how does America needs us if we are fighting to free the oppressed people of Iraq? Wouldn't Iraq needs us?

I love the way Bush switched from Osama, to Saddam/WMDs, to freeing an oppressed people... WHAT AN AWESOME PRESIDENT

For what it's worth, im not against war.I've said "Give war a chance" only to be scolded by classmates haha.

It's hard to scare people who want to die, but except for a thin layer of the real fruitcakes, even most nuts and zealots can be scared into behaving, and we need to do some of that. They said Saddam Hussein was crazy when the Gulf began, but actually, he loved his job and aimed to keep it, along with his a$$ and arteries. So when it was made clear to him then "you go biological, we go nuclear," he got sane real fast. The Japanese were notorious for welcoming death until Hiroshima and Nagasaki showed them what it looked like on a massive scale. And the reason no one has fired off a nuclear missile in the 50+ years since Nagasaki is MAD---mutually assured destruction. Key word assured . That’s right, assured, as in, "please, let me assure you, if you kill a lot of us, we'll kill all of you--rest assured."

Terrorists only understand the cold, unforgiving hammer of brute force. Sorry, but we need "MAD for Muslims". The terrorists gave us a good scare, but now we have to scare them and their help. I'd like for Bush to extended his already accepted "Bush Doctrine" of "any country that harbors terrorists will be considered terrorists themselves" to include "any nation harboring a terrorlst bringing a nuclear bomb into the Untied States, even if it's brought in PBS tote bag, will be considered to have fired a nuclear missile at the United States, with everything that implies."

There must be a nuclear deterrent put in place regarding this threat equal to the one that worked for so long with the Russians. The onl thing keeping certain people from killing all of us immidiatelyis that they can't. In a representive republic such as ours, where leaders write policies based on the will of the people, it's everybody's job to keep it that way.

Im sure everyone's opinon of invading Iraq will differ. But im sure most will agree the war in it wasn't handled very good.
Modified by S13GUY at 2:28 PM 9/7/2004

[jdmfreak]

Well it looks like Ill be goin to jail and Project Maxima will be put on hold.

[jdmfreak]

Oh and how long are these sentences

[vicki]

Haha we just need to get someone else to attack us and we'll watch all the bush lovers sign up for the war. No need to implement a draft.

d!ck, we're going to war.

[DAEDALUS]

Didn't they do that in Vietnam though?

Yeah, what he said. A good number of the 77 million baby boomers who were at draft age during Vietnam have kids at or near draft age, and a good number of them vote. IMO a draft during foreign war is highly unlikely. It's troubling to realize that we have lost 1000+ of our own in Iraq after 1 1/2 years...try to imagine what it was like in 1971 after America lost 58,000.

[Mr1der]

ya see, if someone actually attacks us, it's a hole new can of worms.

I'd want vengeance, and I'd want it now.

[jdmfreak]

^Agreed

I wanna be a sniper

[The Mic]

really? the last thing id want to be is a sniper. those guys are werrrrdd. like they do werd cult stuff. Im talking about marine scout snipers. like they get into a trance and theyre so into it. your mission may last for days, in any weather, against an enemy trying to kill you like a pesky varmint. Its 1 shot 1 kill. if you miss you fail infront of your brethren which is the uber humuliation, not to mention you fail the mission bc you just compromised yourself when you missed.

[krazy skwerel]

I think it's all a bunch of mass paranoia. I mean how can you get rid of all the restrictions? Will the physically and mentally handicapped be forced to fight? How can you ethically do that? Even to make them do community service.

[MaineExport]

ya see, if someone actually attacks us, it's a hole new can of worms.

I'd want vengeance, and I'd want it now.

I seem to recall a little incident with planes crashing into buildings and thousands of innocent people being killed.... oh yeah... that's right..... we WERE attacked!

As much as some try to deny it for their own political agenda... the ties to Osama and Iraq WERE very real. Direct money/political support... no... a blind eye and a place to stay.... YES.

[prigo]

I wont have to worry, I'm working on a career in Law Enforcement.

I hope I get on a force in time

[The Mic]

:pours gasoline on fire:

[Jesda]

The draft is the ultimate form of government evil. The authorities in power should NEVER use force to place its citizens in the way of harm. Second, as a matter of efficiency, the military always functions better as a volunteer organization. Imagine if you were a florist forced to work in the military -- you wouldnt exactly be motivated to do your best -- its not your chosen profession.

I'm a Libertarian first, Bush supporter second. Not that it matters; its that a$$ Chuck Rangel who wants this draft.

[HashiriyaS14]

I mean, sometimes the draft is a good idea, look at WWII. But in general, yes, a volunteer military works better, because the soldiers are going career and thus become better soldiers. This is why the Red Army (Soviet) didn't work out so well with their massively integrated tactics, because their conscript soldiers were only around for 2 years, and couldn't learn how to do anything right. Their Non-coms were all that were holding them together.

Iraq is not what I'd call a massive war effort, although it is certainly a very serious situation. The Draft is political suicide for a president in this day and age though, so you can bet that if Kerry gets in office, it won't happen, because he'll have a 2nd term to fight for. Bush will be ON his 2nd term, so he probably won't care so much.

Honestly, depends on what you do in the military. Intel is pretty cool (got a friend in Navy Intel), and you don't generally get hurt. It also opens up the way for nice CIA/NSA jobs out of service, or a cushy consulting job at Booz Allen Hamilton or something.

[Cold_Zero]

You know, I cannott believe this whole conversation has made it this far. Mass frenzied paranoia. An inability to discern between fact, fiction and leftist propaganda (s*** they will do anything to bring down Bush).

Not that this draft is real or anything, but what sickens me is the fact that people would actually not respond if their country called them to duty (no matter what the cause.) This country has been very good to all of us and you would turn your back on it just like that? I have three side notes about to this conversation.FirstDo you think that Americans that were drafted didn't feel the same way about going to war in Africa and Europe to fight Nazi aggression? Was Germany knocking down our front door ready to take us over? We saw the writing on the wall that once the rest of Europe fell, we would be next. Well, we now have seen the writing on the wall. That the Islamofacists will stop at nothing to get what they want. SecondI would rather go to war for a Commander in Chief that has a clear mission and will be un-wavered in his will to complete the mission. I would not go to war with a Commander in Chief that fights wars by opinion polls with a half assed will to complete the mission and an exit plan ready to be employed at the sign of any American Casualty. This is war my friends, now matter how you stack it up. We cannot go back to the Clinton era or politics and track these guys like it is a police action. The thing that these Islamofacists will understand it their own termination. ThirdDo people really think that appeasement will really work with these Islamofacists? Would it have worked against the Japanese? Why the heck do Americans believe that we can just appease these two bit thugs and they will leave us alone? I hear people on talk radio refer to these people and I wanted to know if they actually exist.

bud

[vicki]

FirstDo you think that Americans that were drafted didn't feel the same way about going to war in Africa and Europe to fight Nazi aggression? Was Germany knocking down our front door ready to take us over? We saw the writing on the wall that once the rest of Europe fell, we would be next. Well, we now have seen the writing on the wall. That the Islamofacists will stop at nothing to get what they want.

In that era we were still isolationalits. America didn't do anything to help in WWII until Pearl Harbor was bombed, and it just so happened, we went and attacked the right people. I was supportive of Bush's choice to relatiate against al queda and Afghanistan, where Osama supposedly resides(ed). His whole preventive attack on Iraq crossed the line in many ways, but of course you'd heard this beat to the ground so I won't get into it.

SecondI would rather go to war for a Commander in Chief that has a clear mission and will be un-wavered in his will to complete the mission. I would not go to war with a Commander in Chief that fights wars by opinion polls with a half assed will to complete the mission and an exit plan ready to be employed at the sign of any American Casualty. This is war my friends, now matter how you stack it up. We cannot go back to the Clinton era or politics and track these guys like it is a police action. The thing that these Islamofacists will understand it their own termination.

I agree with you there. But Bush fails to understand that terrorism isn't only in the middle east. It transcends all borders. He also seems to have this notion that there will be a domino effect of democratization in that region. It takes decades to develop liberal democracies - and a ethnically divided country sure as hell won't make it any easier/quicker.

ThirdDo people really think that appeasement will really work with these Islamofacists? Would it have worked against the Japanese? Why the heck do Americans believe that we can just appease these two bit thugs and they will leave us alone? I hear people on talk radio refer to these people and I wanted to know if they actually exist.

Of course not. They won't be appeased until the American hegemon has fallen. But that doesn't give us the right to launch preventive (not preemptive) attacks on Islamic nations because we have a "hunch" that they are ready to attack us. Hell, Bush made plans to take out Saddam before 9/11 even occured. Just so happens his cause developed some justification.

But all political bullcrap and party affiliation aside, I disagree with the war, and I'd definitely be all down with Canada if things get desperate. But I also don't agree that females should be in the military to begin with.

[Jesda]

I support females and gays in the military, but women shouldnt be drafted (nor should -anyone-). Should the citizens decide that it is of value to defend their land, they will do it. Note the enlistments that took place after 9/11. It is indeed possible and logically consistent to support the war without wanting to fight it personally -- some of us are more qualified to serve while some of us arent. I'd make an excellent lawyer but a terrible soldier.

Vicki, you've studied economics. You can acknowledge then that a society is its most productive and efficient when human capital is specialized and individuals are matched with activities that meet their capabilities. This makes a draft economically unjust.

Did I also mention I was a modern feminist? Equality of opportunity for all. If you can be my boss, my senator, a cop, or my governor, you sure as **** can fly a jet or hold a gun.

[vicki]

Of course. Economic efficiency results when individuals or countries specialize and produce goods that they're immediate resources or skill allows them to make. Doesn't make sense for people in Alaska to have a palm tree nursery nor does it make sense for people in Africa to make Ramune pop and Pocky (both of which KICK ARSE!)

Feminists believe women are capable of great things.... from speaking to you on a personal basis, Sid., I don't think you can be called a feminist.

[The Mic]

Note the enlistments that took place after 9/11.

Following 9/11 it was reported that the inquiries to military recuitment had skyrocketed. Yeah, the inquiries skyrockted. The enlistments did not."Before 9 am you say? Listen, im getting beeped on the other line."

I was very much considering enlistment, but it would kill my mom, I couldn't do that to her and i have to take care of my other siblings.

For a young man to even consider enlisting nowadays have to be bribed into it. The military is forced to lure people in with embarassing TV commercials that promise an adventure and college tuition, or they can be part of a unit but "an army of one." We live in a culture that makes caring about anything other than yourself seem like losing. The ads talk about joining the army for yourself, your family, your coach, because Grandma got you up for school and made you breakfast (and sometimes took care of your sister's crack baby). What happened to "Do it for your country"? Instead its like a Bally's gym ad: "You'll get into the best shape of your life"

[Cold_Zero]

In that era we were still isolationalits. America didn't do anything to help in WWII until Pearl Harbor was bombed, and it just so happened, we went and attacked the right people. I was supportive of Bush's choice to relatiate against al queda and Afghanistan, where Osama supposedly resides(ed). His whole preventive attack on Iraq crossed the line in many ways, but of course you'd heard this beat to the ground so I won't get into it.

Ever hear of the Lend Lease Act signed in 1941 and the Atlantic Charter? If we were Isolationists and “didn’t do anything to help in WWII” until Pearl Harbor, why didnt the British Empire crumple under the Nazi Air Raids? If we were Isolationists, why did the Japanese bomb us in the first place? Weren't we supporting the Chinese in their resistance to Japanese Imperialism?

I am currently at work and dont have the time to respond to your other statements, but I would agree and disagree with some of your other statements.bud

[DriftFactory]

We were isolationist. Lend lease was a good business decision, nothing more. As much as it isn't talked about we sold things to the Germans too during that period. What we didn't do is declare war on anyone. As far as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, we were attacked because we were the only other naval power in the Pacific that could stand in the way of Japanese expansion, and no we were not supporting the Chinese any more than we were supporting the Japanese. The only notable exception is the independent soldiers and pilots that went to china as mercenaries. These Americans went over independently simply because the US would NOT step in and they felt that china needed help in the fight against the Japanese.

[180fan]

Ever hear of the Lend Lease Act signed in 1941 and the Atlantic Charter? If we were Isolationists and “didn’t do anything to help in WWII” until Pearl Harbor, why didnt the British Empire crumple under the Nazi Air Raids? If we were Isolationists, why did the Japanese bomb us in the first place? Weren't we supporting the Chinese in their resistance to Japanese Imperialism?

I am currently at work and dont have the time to respond to your other statements, but I would agree and disagree with some of your other statements.bud

The British didn't crumble under Nazi air raids because most of the citizens that were in urban areas went to the subways, the cities above, London in particular were rubble, but most of the population were still there, just underground. The rest of the military went into the more wide spread areas. It was expected that the US Navy in the Pacific would come around sooner. Admiral Yamamoto just decided to take the initiative and try to deliver a crushing blow to the US Navy in the pacific. The support for the Chinese was to the Nationalist party, not the up and coming Communist party although the two were fighting against the Japanese for a mutual cause. Also the Lend-Lease act of 1941 was put into play in March. By then the US was already pretty much involved in wartime activities. September of 1940, there was already a draft bill put in place, registering 900,000 men in times of peace. September of 1940 again, the US gives 50 destroyers to England for use of English bases. The Lend-Lease plan was just another way of giving backup to an ally. Also do keep in mind that American companies were also giving the Nazi's quite a few good tools too. The best and possilby the most disgusting is the use of IBM computers by the Nazi's for more efficent extermination of Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies and other minorities. Also another biggie to remember. The allies borrowed alot more from the US than the Axis powers did before the US took any sides. Money was already flowing into England from the US by 1940 in pretty heavy amounts since FDR agreed to lend them wads of cash. Money talks and has alot of influence in history.

In regards to the draft, I think there's a possibility it will happen. Not during an election year, but 2005's not exactly an election year now is it? When 9/11 originally happened, do you remember how quickly many members of the house and senate actually read the Patriot Act? If my memory serves me right, it wasn't very many just due to the pressure many politicians were feeling to get something done about 9/11 just because people were outraged. Here's a link to the Selective Serivce System's page.

http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html

you'll see that at the bottom it says that they'll be ready to go at a flick of a switch. They're always ready to reinstate the draft. Sure it says they won't but things happen mighty quick when there are terrorists about don't you think? Especially when all will be said and done should there be a terrorlst attack AFTER elections. Politicians are still just politicians and they'll roll over if pressure's big enough. Look at how many of em rolled over and played dead when the bill for $87 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan came knocking at the door.

Here's an article on extended service for soldiers overseas.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/....html

Seriously, why would any military if they had enough troops do that? It just pisses people off and when people get pissed off, the military's bosses get heat. Krazy Skwerel, I think your recruiter's pulling your leg on the recruitment numbers. Most branches have been falling short. Heard that from different recruiters too. Marines and Air Force. But then again I actually know them and their families and doubt they'd be pulling my leg and as recruiters, I'd think they know something else about the real numbers than what the armed forces brass release in terms of figures instead of just some number made up to appease their politican bosses.

With the word draft, I hear alot of politicians say it's probably not going to happen in 2004, of course not it's an election year, but I've not heard one say that it absolutely will not happen in 2005. They all leave that option open. That being said (this goes out in general), you sure you want to be all your chips on "no draft?" Then again maybe my trust in politicans has been real shaken up by the lies about going to Iraq for this and this reason, the lies the US government said about being close to catching Osama Bin Laden (even though the Pakistani government says they're not anywhere near finding him although making strides in the past 2 months), or there being WMD's, and the list goes on.

[psychic_mechanic]

There is not going to be any draft in the near future. Just because you read something on the internet doesn't make it true.

I have worked in psych for over 10 years in the military and we have a hard enough time keeping our "volunteer" force from wimping out and running back to cry at mommies skirts. I don't know how many times I have heard **** like "I miss my mommy" from grown *** 18 year old men that are supposed to be defending our country and our way of life. If you don't want to go out to destroy the enemy and their will to fight, don't join the Marines. If you don't want to spend at least 6 months a year out to sea, don't join the Navy.

Some people think it is worth putting our lives on the line to make sure you all can sit on your fat *** and surf the ' net all day, don't presume to think you know what we think when bullets start flying.

[MaineExport]

Quote »We were isolationist. Lend lease was a good business decision, nothing more. As much as it isn't talked about we sold things to the Germans too during that period. What we didn't do is declare war on anyone. As far as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, we were attacked because we were the only other naval power in the Pacific that could stand in the way of Japanese expansion, and no we were not supporting the Chinese any more than we were supporting the Japanese. The only notable exception is the independent soldiers and pilots that went to china as mercenaries. [/quote]We were more involved than that. US airmen trained using British fighters here in the US, and were later sent to (and made citizens of) England. They fought as British airmen LONG before the US "officially" entered into WWII. We were not true isolationists by any stretch of the definition.

[180crafter]

All i can say is:

Dammit! Real good points.

I know that i could never volunteer to go, but if I was forced, then so be it. America is like any other major corp., and they only look out for what is important, Nmbr 1. Always. All the hippie crap that we help other countries and we intervene and all that junk is just BS. The politictions that make all the decisions are looking out for number one. They themselves dont go to war and neither do any of their children (for the most part). They dont care what happens to the masses. They care about the money, greed, and stature that the American flag imposes.

I am an American first, of cuban desent. This is the best country, compared to what else is out there. But about being "Moraly good", I dont think so.

[DriftFactory]

We were more involved than that. US airmen trained using British fighters here in the US, and were later sent to (and made citizens of) England. They fought as British airmen LONG before the US "officially" entered into WWII. We were not true isolationists by any stretch of the definition.

The US airman were not "sent" The US cannot "send" anyone to become a citizen of another country. The program was voluntary in response to military outcry that we should get involved. Public opinion actually counted back then and the public did not want another world war. As a result, the only way for the US to give any kind of support was to give the option for it's pilots to volunteer for outsourcing programs.

As far as morals, there is no such thing as a "morally good" war. That is why its called "war". Otherwise it would be called "happy fun time".