DOC....Need a Couple Questions Answered Please!!!

[domdada]

No, I haven't bought anything yet. I understand what you are saying about overkill. If you say that the 2 set's of components is all I would need, that's even better for me. It'll save me money on buying an extra amp and speakers for no reason.

Also, The amp that you mentioned, how well does it stand when playing it for a long continuous time frame? I've had problems before with amps going into protect mode because the amps were playing for a long period of time. What do you think about the Audio Control 3.1 and Matrix. Would I need to incorporate both with the system set up?

[rjdmmfl1]

no, the 120 hz is where I have my pro 60's crossovers set ... I don't even think I've mentioned subwoofer at any point ... Again, the neodymium drivers just don't seem to be functioning well with all that power going to them.. But I think part of this is the way my audio installer set up the system .. They didn't consult me during that part and I Gita coin and change some things

Do you really have your sub crossed at 120Hz?!?

That is insanely high. That could be why the midbass sounds off. The Pro 60's should still hit pretty cleanly. Plus, you're feeding a lot of power for something in the range of 120 Hz on up. From ~60 Hz to 120 Hz those speakers will chew up a lot of power (basically whatever you can throw at them). If I were you, I'd try crossing them at 60 Hz and work your way up until they sound right. 120 Hz is just way too high IMO. My CMass UL12 can easily run past 200 Hz, but you'll never find me feeding those frequencies to the trunk (my sub and interiors are crossed at 63 Hz right now, but if I ever upgrade my mids I'll probably lower that even more). Subs are supposed to output frequencies that are non-directional. For most listeners, this transition happens around 75Hz. Feeding above that to the sub will make you hear the bass in the trunk (whereas a sub is supposed to be felt). Just some food for thought. Plus, this would be an easy thing to test as I'm about 99.9% certain your high pass/low pass filter is controllable through your HU.

[rjdmmfl1]

Ok, now I'm really confused. Are you planning on putting the Pro 60's in the front doors and the S35's in the factory tweeter location? That would be complete overkill. There is no way that many drivers will sound good together. You will get all sorts of frequency cancellation among other things. More speakers does not equal better sound. High quality setups operate under the blanket idea of less is more. Less drivers means less of a chance for physics to come into play and distort the imaging of your soundstage. I've only seen a few very top notch audio setups that have consisted of multiple drivers for one location (IE front right) at the same frequency, and they were all home theater setups costing upwards of $3 mil. To do this correctly in your car (which I've never seen BTW - look at audio quality competition rigs and there will not be any setup such as you are suggesting), you would need to do the most incredible job tuning. In fact, there are probably less than 10 people in the US that could tune this correctly, and they would charge you far more money than your budget allows (judging by the speaker selection).

You really only need two tweeters up front (one right and one left obviously) and two midrange/midbass. One set of Pro 60's would easily accomplish this (mount the midbass in the door and the tweeter in the dash - one possible option). I hope you haven't purchased all of this equipment already. If not, buy less but get better quality. That is why I recommended the setups listed in my prior post. Those will cost about the same as a pair of Pro 60s and s35s, but will sound significantly better (again, my opinion but there is a lot of support for this opinion on the web). Trust me, I don't push the brands I run because I run them. I researched these things for a long time before I decided to drop money on them, and they are worth every penny.

As far as amps go, Sundown makes a number of highly acclaimed amplifiers. For about the price of the Rockford, you could pick up a Sundown SAX-100.4

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio..._id=5

You may be able to find it cheaper than this, but that is a decent price. That amp is a hog though. If you're going to run component speakers up front and in the rear (IE two sets of the Pro60's, Germaniums or Dynaudio 242s), you would only need this one amp to power all of the speakers (the passive crossovers on either set will direct power to the tweeters or mids). Just throwing out ideas...

I also would just stick with the two sets of components... trust me, you do NOT need a third set if you are running Boston pro 60's

Regarding the sundown amp, IMO, its gonna be too powerful... looking at the specs (which are probably UNDERrated) its looks to be on par with the Rockford T600-4, and as I said, its overkill for the Pro 60's...

Applebonker, we have to also consider whether or not he's trying to stay within a certain budget... there are a number of products we could offer for a "Utopia-like" system, but some are not reasonable!

Regarding some of the lesser known brands (by common folks standards, not audio enthusiasts) if you choose to go that route, I think applebonker has more experience with those. If you decide to stay with the Pro 60's, I can tell you from experience what they can handle. but again, I'm still trying to find the free time to tweek my system.. it'll take a few hours to do it right, and my schedule hasn't allowed that as of late... I may not have the free time to do it until I get a break from my wife and daughter at the end of the month... SIGGHHHHH

[AppleBonker]

No, I haven't bought anything yet. I understand what you are saying about overkill. If you say that the 2 set's of components is all I would need, that's even better for me. It'll save me money on buying an extra amp and speakers for no reason.

Also, The amp that you mentioned, how well does it stand when playing it for a long continuous time frame? I've had problems before with amps going into protect mode because the amps were playing for a long period of time. What do you think about the Audio Control 3.1 and Matrix. Would I need to incorporate both with the system set up?

You bet, two component sets would be more than enough. I've got two tweets and two midbasses up front and that's pretty much all I use for 98% of listening. The coaxial 6x9's in the rear are used only for multichannel audio (which I really don't listen to that much in the car). Glad we could stop you from spending money that will probably make your setup sound worse.

As far as the Sundown is concerned, if given even reasonable airflow I cannot imagine it ever going into protect mode for temperature. I don't have one of these in my car, but I do have a Sundown SAZ-3000D (granted mine is class D whereas the 100.4 is class A/B). My amp has never gone into protect mode, and there is NO airflow where it resides in my trunk (see pics below). I thought about adding fans to circulate some air around there, but I've been checking the temp on that amp frequently at it never really passes warm to the touch (after listening to rap for ~2 hours with the bass cranked on a 95 degree day in Chicago with the AC off).

[AppleBonker]

Regarding the sundown amp, IMO, its gonna be too powerful... looking at the specs (which are probably UNDERrated) its looks to be on par with the Rockford T600-4, and as I said, its overkill for the Pro 60's...

Applebonker, we have to also consider whether or not he's trying to stay within a certain budget... there are a number of products we could offer for a "Utopia-like" system, but some are not reasonable!

Regarding some of the lesser known brands (by common folks standards, not audio enthusiasts) if you choose to go that route, I think applebonker has more experience with those. If you decide to stay with the Pro 60's, I can tell you from experience what they can handle. but again, I'm still trying to find the free time to tweek my system.. it'll take a few hours to do it right, and my schedule hasn't allowed that as of late... I may not have the free time to do it until I get a break from my wife and daughter at the end of the month... SIGGHHHHH

I would agree that the Sundown may be too powerful. However, that is the best way to run speakers. Having headroom to play with is always a good thing. It will keep the amp away from clipping, providing a much cleaner signal to the speakers.

On to your next point, the budget. This is the problem with every install I've ever done. I always have a budget, and I always end up exceeding it. I'm only throwing options out there for consideration. I'm picking sets that should be close in price (although most likely more expensive in all cases - just hopefully not by much). If this is out of budget, then clearly another option will be chosen. Also, for the record, this is in no way me trying to bash your system Doc. All of the options listed in this thread are good ones. I've always found that having more options is a good thing, and domdada can then pick whatever works best. And as far as the experience goes, I've got far less than I would like. However, if I had more experience with some of this stuff, it seems highly likely that my wallet would be quite a bit lighter.

[AppleBonker]

no, the 120 hz is where I have my pro 60's crossovers set ... I don't even think I've mentioned subwoofer at any point ... Again, the neodymium drivers just don't seem to be functioning well with all that power going to them.. But I think part of this is the way my audio installer set up the system .. They didn't consult me during that part and I Gita coin and change some things

dom,

Sorry for all these tangents we keep getting on in your thread. Hopefully we're still providing the info you need.

Now I'm totally lost. The Pro 60's come with a passive crossover, correct? Where are you adjusting to get the 120Hz cutoff? There shouldn't be anything to select a frequency on the BA physical crossovers themselves. Is this a setting in your Kenwood HU?

[rjdmmfl1]

I would agree that the Sundown may be too powerful. However, that is the best way to run speakers. Having headroom to play with is always a good thing. It will keep the amp away from clipping, providing a much cleaner signal to the speakers.

On to your next point, the budget. This is the problem with every install I've ever done. I always have a budget, and I always end up exceeding it. I'm only throwing options out there for consideration. I'm picking sets that should be close in price (although most likely more expensive in all cases - just hopefully not by much). If this is out of budget, then clearly another option will be chosen. Also, for the record, this is in no way me trying to bash your system Doc. All of the options listed in this thread are good ones. I've always found that having more options is a good thing, and domdada can then pick whatever works best. And as far as the experience goes, I've got far less than I would like. However, if I had more experience with some of this stuff, it seems highly likely that my wallet would be quite a bit lighter.

oh no, I didn't take it as bashing my system at all, and I'm happy you are here to provide a counter to my knowledge.. its the only way we all learn. I can and will only talk to guys on this forum about things I personally have experience with, which in the big scheme of car audio, is not that extensive. It does no good for me to be the only one making suggestions all the time, then everyone would end up with systems that sound the same!

Furthermore, my system, is nice, and I would say is by far better than the average system, however, there are many products out there that are better, probably for less, it just takes folks that are more versed in the off brands to illuminate us on them! In the future, I would definately be willing to try some of them, just not anytime soon..

your presence in this forum is a necessity, and I wouldn't be surprised if the mods/admins didn't offer you an audio moderator position .. I absolutley DO NOT want to be a moderator, but honestly I think you'd be perfect... hopefully, you will make NICO your permanent home and be here for a long while!!!

[AppleBonker]

Thanks for the kind words, Doc. I know audio is very subjective, and I don't want anyone to think their tastes are wrong. My only goal is to get people to the highest level of quality possible on their budget. Many of the brands I plug are because they deliver exceptional audio at a price that can't really be beat. Now, let's hope I can provide enough insight for someone to think I should be a mod. I'd be happy knowing that I helped enough people that this would be warranted. Still have a long way to go to prove myself, however.

On a side note, I'm planning on compiling a list of all information audio so that people can read first before asking questions (trying to provide answers to the common questions so that we don't have to answer them over and over, just reference the answer in one post). Would you mind if I utilize your information for this purpose (I'll obviously give you credit for your work)?

[rjdmmfl1]

Thanks for the kind words, Doc. I know audio is very subjective, and I don't want anyone to think their tastes are wrong. My only goal is to get people to the highest level of quality possible on their budget. Many of the brands I plug are because they deliver exceptional audio at a price that can't really be beat. Now, let's hope I can provide enough insight for someone to think I should be a mod. I'd be happy knowing that I helped enough people that this would be warranted. Still have a long way to go to prove myself, however.

On a side note, I'm planning on compiling a list of all information audio so that people can read first before asking questions (trying to provide answers to the common questions so that we don't have to answer them over and over, just reference the answer in one post). Would you mind if I utilize your information for this purpose (I'll obviously give you credit for your work)?

no, by all means, please do that, I think it would save us a lot of time if guys had a central thread they could go to for answers.... we could pose it in qyuestion asnwer format... i think that would be most useful for everyone! ... so glad to have you on board dude!

[domdada]

You Know what....I miss hearing these conversations about car audio. I used to hear them day in and out when I was working on my 03 and when I used to help at my friends sound shop. All the information you guys are giving me is great, I'm totally understanding it, and I greatly appreciate it, seriously, I do.

As to a budget:

I have somewhat of a budget, but again, to have top quality, you have to pay the price. This is why I'm asking about all this so I know what kind of budget I'm dealing with. I don't wanna do what I did with my last car, (ripping out the back seat....building a 9+cu/ft box for 2 15" juggernauts.......2-Mmats 2000.1 amps........4 sets of pioneer rev component speakers.....2 Mmats SQ4070 amps......4 optimum batteries in the trunk), I want to have a car with a nice sound, something that anyone can come in to and enjoy and not worry about losing their hearing after a 30 minute drive.

AppleBonker--I know where you are coming from about the amp you are suggesting, how it is not that popular in the general car audio mainstream.....but it is a good quality amp. I know about this because not many people know who Mmats Pro Audio is....and what they are all about. They probaby have one of the wickedest line up of competition subs and D Class amps. The only reason that I am concidering going with the B/A Pro60's is because of the reputation they have. Even before I knew DOC had them in his car, I was researching them and comparing them to others. As to the amp, I wasn't sure if the Mmats SQ4070's would do me good with these speakers and when DOC mentioned the Rockford amp, I concidered this because of the reputation for one......two, I had a complete Rockford system set up years ago in a previous car so I know what I would be getting. I really do appreciate the input that you have given.....and I have put alot of thought into this matter.

DOC--I'm gonna mention this to you again, if the whole Doctor thing doesn't work.....Let me know and I will open a Car Audio Shop here in the Detroit area and make u Master Installer and Shop Manager. Again, thanks for the help with this and hopefully I will come to a conculsion to all this.

(AppleBonker, if you are interested in this as well, I'll make u Co-Master Installer and Co-Manager as well)

***Note***

1 last thing before I head out for the night. Whatever route I end up going about doing this set up, I want you to know that I'm not choosing one over the other because one of you is more knowledgable than the other. Obviously, you both know your car audio and neither one of you are wrong about what you are saying.....I just don't wanna see any hardship here.

[AppleBonker]

DOC--I'm gonna mention this to you again, if the whole Doctor thing doesn't work.....Let me know and I will open a Car Audio Shop here in the Detroit area and make u Master Installer and Shop Manager. Again, thanks for the help with this and hopefully I will come to a conculsion to all this.

(AppleBonker, if you are interested in this as well, I'll make u Co-Master Installer and Co-Manager as well)

***Note***

1 last thing before I head out for the night. Whatever route I end up going about doing this set up, I want you to know that I'm not choosing one over the other because one of you is more knowledgable than the other. Obviously, you both know your car audio and neither one of you are wrong about what you are saying.....I just don't wanna see any hardship here.

That's funny. I've always said that if I were to win the lotto, I'd quit my job and open up a gym and a home/mobile AV store. Between those two I could probably work 20 hours a day and be very happy about it.

Also, I can't speak for Doc, but I can promise you that you wont be able to offend me in anyway. I think the two of us (and anyone else on NICO) are here for the same reason: simply to provide advice and make sure that no one is getting ripped off with their decisions. I've always known that audio is subjective, so you could flat out tell me my suggestions are garbage and I'd be cool with it. At the same time, I wont think you're an idiot if you don't agree with my opinions. That really is the beauty of car stereo equipment. Also, this is YOUR stereo (and probably more importantly, your money).

PS- glad we can keep you entertained with our of-topic discussions. I feel better about it knowing that you're learning from some of the stuff we're babbling about too.

[rjdmmfl1]

That's funny. I've always said that if I were to win the lotto, I'd quit my job and open up a gym and a home/mobile AV store. Between those two I could probably work 20 hours a day and be very happy about it.

Also, I can't speak for Doc, but I can promise you that you wont be able to offend me in anyway. I think the two of us (and anyone else on NICO) are here for the same reason: simply to provide advice and make sure that no one is getting ripped off with their decisions. I've always known that audio is subjective, so you could flat out tell me my suggestions are garbage and I'd be cool with it. At the same time, I wont think you're an idiot if you don't agree with my opinions. That really is the beauty of car stereo equipment. Also, this is YOUR stereo (and probably more importantly, your money).

PS- glad we can keep you entertained with our of-topic discussions. I feel better about it knowing that you're learning from some of the stuff we're babbling about too.

Agreed... car audio is subjective... no offense here. Its all about what you want and how much you want to spend. I think if you give both Applebonker and i $1000, and say hook me up with a system, we would probably put completely tdifferent things in there, but both setups would sound good.... as he stated, its more about what NOT to put into your car than specifically what to put into it.... good luck with this install... Apple and I could probably talk shop forever, which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing because i think folks reading through and following the conversations are learning!

[AppleBonker]

Apple and I could probably talk shop forever, which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing because i think folks reading through and following the conversations are learning!

I would hope so. But if nothing else, at least I'm having fun with it.

Side note Doc: I'm working on getting all the info together for the master FAQ for this forum. I've probably got about 3 pages written in MS Word for now, and I don't think I'm even 10% of the way there. I don't want to post up til I have everything, so it might take a while. Hopefully within the next week or so I'll have something ready.

[rjdmmfl1]

I would hope so. But if nothing else, at least I'm having fun with it.

Side note Doc: I'm working on getting all the info together for the master FAQ for this forum. I've probably got about 3 pages written in MS Word for now, and I don't think I'm even 10% of the way there. I don't want to post up til I have everything, so it might take a while. Hopefully within the next week or so I'll have something ready.

, I'm no mod, but I think according to NICO rule 687-b, this type of write up will earn you a Custom Title! I can't thank you enough for being such a productive member my friend!

[AppleBonker]

, I'm no mod, but I think according to NICO rule 687-b, this type of write up will earn you a Custom Title! I can't thank you enough for being such a productive member my friend!

Ha! I feel like it is our duty to share our knowledge so everyone else can benefit from the time I've (you too obviously) spent researching this stuff. I'm not doing this for a custom title (not that I would turn it down). I just want everyone to get the best stuff possible!

[shortys408]

this pac interface is so frusterating. I just hooked it all up, spent 45 minutes trying to program it jus to realize i never plugged in the jack in the back of the head unit. I put it back together and I mustve broke the solder off my resistor, now only the down functions on my steering wheel work (volume down, track down). Now I have to go back in there tomarow night

[rjdmmfl1]

this pac interface is so frusterating. I just hooked it all up, spent 45 minutes trying to program it jus to realize i never plugged in the jack in the back of the head unit. I put it back together and I mustve broke the solder off my resistor, now only the down functions on my steering wheel work (volume down, track down). Now I have to go back in there tomarow night

if you solder the resistors the way I have it on the diagram, and then use 18-22 gauge T-Tap connectors (from Radio Shack) to tap the color coded wires on the factory harness, everything should work fine! When you do the programming, be sure to skip the steps you don't use (mute, seek up, etc) the way it explains it on the directions... if not, all of the functions will not work properly

Honestly, it looks more difficult than it really is (once you've done one or two of them)

[shortys408]

which ones do i skip? i only skipped mute and band.

[rjdmmfl1]

which ones do i skip? i only skipped mute and band.

if you have the pac swi PS, you need to do the following,,,

1. volume up, 2. volume down... SKIP MUTE...3. track up, 4. track down, 5.source... SKIP PRESET UP, SKIP PRESET DOWN, SKIP BAND

[shortys408]

I did

if you have the pac swi PS, you need to do the following,,,

1. volume up, 2. volume down... SKIP MUTE...3. track up, 4. track down, 5.source... SKIP PRESET UP, SKIP PRESET DOWN, SKIP BAND

I did track up and track down and when i used it during hte radio it wouldnt go up or down presets, would just change the tuning of the station. So i reprogrammed with preset up and preset down and skipped track up and track down. now it works with my preset but does not work with my ipod. I didnt try track up/down on my ipod though. Does your steering wheel interface change tracks on your ipod?

[rjdmmfl1]

Hmm, I haven't tried track up and track down with my ipod... let me go try that now!.... nooe, no ipod control from your steering wheel

I did

I did track up and track down and when i used it during hte radio it wouldnt go up or down presets, would just change the tuning of the station. So i reprogrammed with preset up and preset down and skipped track up and track down. now it works with my preset but does not work with my ipod. I didnt try track up/down on my ipod though. Does your steering wheel interface change tracks on your ipod?

Modified by rjdmmfl1 at 7:07 PM 8/10/2008

[shortys408]

:/ oh well, that would have been a great feature.

[AppleBonker]

:/ oh well, that would have been a great feature.

I don't have the Kenwood, but if you program track up/down it should work on the iPod. My Alpine works fine with the iPod through the wheel control buttons. There's no button on my unit to go to the next track (it's only on the touch screen), and when I'm running nav I have to go through an extra button push to get to the next track. Being able to skip tracks (forward and back) using the steering wheel is a must so that I can keep my eyes on the road and not worry about navigating through menus/screens on my HU.

[rjdmmfl1]

I don't have the Kenwood, but if you program track up/down it should work on the iPod. My Alpine works fine with the iPod through the wheel control buttons. There's no button on my unit to go to the next track (it's only on the touch screen), and when I'm running nav I have to go through an extra button push to get to the next track. Being able to skip tracks (forward and back) using the steering wheel is a must so that I can keep my eyes on the road and not worry about navigating through menus/screens on my HU.

all of my steering wheel controls work for radio, cd player, dvd's, etc... but the track up track down feature doesn't work for IPOD with the kenwood unit and ipod adapter...

I would imagine that feature must be dependent on the capabilities of the ipod type/ and adapter used... just as the video out doesn't work on the ipod touch, iphone, or 6th gen ipods, so too may be the case with the track up feature... I'd have to check this on a regular ipod to be sure though

[shortys408]

well when i program it for track up when i use it on the radio it wont go from preset to preset, it just changes the station tuning. So even if that did work for ipod for me, it would be annoying when i want to change radio stations.

[AppleBonker]

well when i program it for track up when i use it on the radio it wont go from preset to preset, it just changes the station tuning. So even if that did work for ipod for me, it would be annoying when i want to change radio stations.

Gotcha. I don't really listen to the radio, so that wouldn't be a big deal for me. If you use both though, I can understand the issue.

[rjdmmfl1]

UPDATE...

OK, I don't know what I was doing the other night when I checked... OK well I do, but since this is an open forum, I won't say it

In any case, my ipod track up and track down DO work from my steering wheels controls!!!!!

[AppleBonker]

Good to hear. That does make life a whole bunch easier while driving.

[shortys408]

doc, did track up/track down go through your radio presets when you had the d3?

[rjdmmfl1]

doc, did track up/track down go through your radio presets when you had the d3?

i don't recall... sorry