Bush or Kerry

[VimyJ]

A dose of reality would do you a world good. America helps the oppressed huh? America sure helped out the East Timorese, Rwandan's, Congonese, Sierra Leonese, Palestinians, Guatemalan's, etc.

Let's not forget the over 200k killed in Central America and the 10s of thousands who died in Chile. The irony of that is that the dreaded Sandinistas in Nicaragua (sp?) are back in power.

How about Viet Nam where millions died?

Man! I have to laugh when I think back to te 90s when conservatives were screaming we are not the world's policeman in response to Clintons initiatives. The only things they screamed louder was "Show us your pecker" and "Wag the dog!"

[ilovedrifting]

sounds good think i'll do the same

[ilovedrifting]

sounds good i think i'll do the same

[ilovedrifting]

sorry for 2 replies my comp ****ed up

[Jesda]

bushie propaganda and Limburger rantings

I'm going to politely refer you to the 1998 Iraqi Liberation Act and the words of Bill Clinton and John Kerry (in 1998 and in 2003, especially where he said we took too long to go into Iraq).

Also be sure to check with Tony Blair.

Yes, "Bushie" propaganda. :P

-Jesda

[VimyJ]

vimy you're correct iraq didn't attack anybody. they were harboring terrorlst whil you'll argue that osama and saddam didn't get along and hated each other i agree completely, but it was a matter of who they hated more each other or america, they hated us more so saddam allowed for al-qaeda trainging camps (we found 2 in iraq) to operate inside his country and he funded these terror camps that makes them a threat to the us a threat which must be neutralized. and thankfully the country isn't led by a ***** like john kerry who is too much of a coward to stand up to the world and do what is right

There you go again. Spouting lies. The convicted embezzler Chalabi's "Iraqi National Congress" made up all that crap about AQ training camps. They told the stupid bushies lie after lie and the bushies swallowed them hook, line and sinker. These supposed defectors were never even veted by the CIA in order to check out their stories.

The 9-11 commision found no meaningful links to AQ and SH and not even the bushies make the claim of the training camps anymore.

Ansar al Islam did operate in the Kurdish area protected by the no fly zones from SH's forces. Ansar was trying to overthrow SH!

[VimyJ]

I'm going to politely refer you to the 1998 Iraqi Liberation Act and the words of Bill Clinton and John Kerry (in 1998 and in 2003, especially where he said we took too long to go into Iraq).

Also be sure to check with Tony Blair.

Yes, "Bushie" propaganda. :P

-Jesda

No WMD and no AQ in Iraq yet the bushie propaganda machine keeps pumping out the disinformation. Yellow cake and AL tubes were among the many lies and distortions passed on by the administration to congress in their successful bid to get the power to invade a nonthreatening sovereign state.

[f1seb]

Also on the WMD remember when not too long ago Bush made a dumb joke about that at a banquet or some crap like that. They showed a picutre of him bending over into a garbage can and looking inside it and i quote bush "The search for WMD goes on they have to be here somewhere" He took some heat for that one from alot of people and rightfuly so.

[Jesda]

Once again, you seem to be unable to remain objective about the issue in your blind raging hatred of President Bush. And people wonder why politics has become so nasty and divisive?

In the article below, the 9/11 Comm. concludes that Saddam didnt join in to cause 9/11, and what the Bush and Clinton administrations said was not inconsistent with intelligence data.(In other words, Bush and Clinton werent lying.)

9/11 panel heads see no clash with White House

WASHINGTON - Leaders of the Sept. 11 commission said Sunday they do not regard differences with the Bush administration over the question of al-Qaida’s relationship with Iraq under Saddam Hussein as a major point of contention.

Saddam’s alleged link with terrorists was a central justification of the Bush administration for toppling the former Iraqi government.

A commission staff report says that while there were contacts between Osama bin Laden’s network and the Iraqi government, they did not appear to have produced a collaborative relationship.

Al-Qaida had “a lot more active contacts” with Iran and Pakistan than it did with Iraq, but “we don’t see serious conflicts” with the White House over the issue, said the commission chairman, former Republican Gov. Thomas Kean of New Jersey.

“There's really very little difference between what our staff found, what the administration is saying today and what the Clinton administration said,” said commissioner John Lehman, speaking Sunday on NBC's “Meet the Press.” “The Clinton administration portrayed the relationship between al-Qaida and Saddam's intelligence services as one of cooperating in weapons development. There's abundant evidence of that.”

“The Bush administration has never said that [Iraq] participated in the 9/11 attack,” Lehman said. “They've said, and our staff has confirmed, there have been numerous contacts between Iraqi intelligence and al-Qaida over a period of 10 years, at least.”

More proof from Cheney?Vice President d!ck Cheney has said Iraq responded to some of bin Laden’s overtures for assistance. That led the commission’s vice chairman, former Democratic Rep. Lee Hamilton of Indiana, to again ask that the vice president provide evidence.

“We asked the vice president if he had information we did not have,” said Hamilton, who appeared with Kean on ABC’s “This Week.”

Kean said, “Obviously, if there is some information, we need it.”

“The vice president was right when he said that he may have things that we don't yet have,” Lehman told "Meet the Press” host Tim Russert. “And we are now in the process of getting this latest intelligence.”

Lehman said the new intelligence that “we are now in the process of getting” indicates one of Saddam’s Fedayeen fighters, a lieutenant colonel, was a prominent al-Qaida member.

Commissioner Richard Ben-Veniste, also on “Meet the Press,” reinforced Lehman's assessment. “And if there is additional information that the vice president has or others have, we thinkwe should have gotten that information by now. But if there is more information, then we are happy to look at it. ..."

“But this was not an effort to discredit or modify someone else's statements,” Ben-Veniste said. “This is a fact-finding, objective effort by a bipartisan commission to get the facts. And that's what we've done.”

Report due July 26Hamilton said the White House and the commission agree on the central point: There is no evidence of a collaborative relationship between al-Qaida and Iraq in the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States.

Hamilton said the commission’s mandate does not extend to the Iraq war and Kean said the staff report containing the finding is an interim document the commission will consider in compiling its final report.

The commission’s report is due July 26. The actual release will depend on when the White House declassifies its contents.

Commissioners are reviewing that initial draft of the report, which is several hundred pages long, and say they hope to reach agreement by mid-July.The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[ilovedrifting]

vimy the camps where there but by the time are soldeirs reached them they were abandoned because they were in central northern iraq and al-qaeda had time to clear out.saddam hussein is a terrorlst and he got what deserved

[Falkdesigns]

I just love the FACT that the Bush's have had business relations with the Bin Ladens. Really nice stuff there.

[ilovedrifting]

yeah who hasn't

[Jesda]

I just love the FACT that the Bush's have had business relations with the Bin Ladens. Really nice stuff there.

Its conspiracy night on NICO! I hate when people try to come up with plots and conspiracies, it distracts us from reality and we get into connecting dots to things that arent there.

Here's some facts:1. Bush Sr's former oil company had business ties to the family in the 70s.

2. The family considers Osama a reject and an outcast.

3. Harvard University has accepted millions from the Bin Laden family (and so have many charities) -- if we follow your conspiracies does this mean left-wing Harvard University is in cahoots with them too? And if so, so what?

"The family business disavowed him in 1994. In a statement shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks on America, it expressed "regret, denunciation and condemnation of all acts that Osama bin Laden may have committed." "

http://www.sptimes.com/News/09...shtml

I wish someone would kill this thread. I keep getting sucked in.

-Jesda

[Jesda]

No WMD and no AQ in Iraq yet the bushie propaganda machine keeps pumping out the disinformation. Yellow cake and AL tubes were among the many lies and distortions passed on by the administration to congress in their successful bid to get the power to invade a nonthreatening sovereign state.

You better raise these questions at the Democrats in congress, our previous commander in chief, and the UN.--THEY ALL CONSPIRED TOGETHER AND LIED TO US! OH LAWDY!

You might want to scope through this thread and read the UN's latest report (pdf) on WMD being shipped out and dismantled JUST as the war in Iraq began, confirming UN suspicions and declarations about WMD made by Bush Clinton and Kerry.

-Jesda

[Nathan]

Iraq never attacked and never threatened to attack in word or deed the US. You admitted yourself that you don't understand the history of the area. When you get informed about the topic at hand and stop relying on bushie propaganda and Limburger rantings you will begin to see the bush administration for what it is: A weakling president (who thinks he was put in office by God personally) controlled by a bunch of demented chickenhawks trying to exploit a situation in order to further their ideology who count on the ignorance of the average uninformed American (of which you admitted you were one) to reflexively and blindly support anyone who says "Iraq is the center of the war on terror" despite the fact that there are no meaningful Islamic terrorlst connections to Iraq (at least prior to the invasion).

Would you quit putting words in my mouth? To start with, I dont even listen to Limbaugh, and the last time I saw a press release out of the WH was probably over a year ago. I get my news from the major networks and online. Furthermore, it sure would be nice if you could show a little ****ing respect for people. Despite what you might think, Limbaugh's name is not "Limburger" and Bush and his people aren't "Bushies". Thats disrespectful to their positions and unnecessary in the mostly friendly debate we're having here. Has it not crossed your mind that you ARE biased? Your obviously about as left wing liberal as they come and as such, you believe the sources you hear. I'll admit to being a right wing conservative and as such, I choose to believe the sources that support my positions. The fact that you spew propaganda like it's fact without giving sources does nothing to help your arguments. I see a lot of good reasons to vote for Bush right now, he's pro-life, anti-gay, I support the war in Iraq, Bush has made movements towards a flat tax system, his trickle down economic theories seem to ACTUALLY be working (surpised?), our economy is on an upswing that I think has some real potential, and best of all...the guy is a Protestant Christian. Our nation was founded by Christians and I am all for keeping them in power. Yes yes, I know Kerry is a Christian too, its about the only thing he has going for him...unless he touches little boys like his priests are known for This said, I'm going to go work on my car

[Falkdesigns]

What about seperation of Church and State?? I personally believe religions are bad, and for people who cannot think for themselves. If you look at world history, most wars were because of religion. Muslims!, No, Christians!, No, Jews!! Rabble rabble rabble rabble!! Let's go to war!! It's just not possible that only ONE religion is right. From my standpoint, religious zealots, weather Muslim, Christian, Jew, whatever, are the problem.

Keep your darn religion to yourself. I don't press my beliefs on you, you darn well better keep yours off me. I place no value whatsoever on a 3 month old fetus. Heck, if it was up to me, I'd use them for stem cell research. I'd ban all religions, and send everyone whose obese to their very own resort island. I'm pro choice (why should you and your religious buddies force YOUR beliefs on ME??), I'm not gay, but I don't give a hoot if you or someone else is (I LOVE the fact that Cheney's daughter is lol), and if you want to marry each other, who cares? If that makes you happy, so be it. It's not like all the straight men are gonna be like "hey, I can marry a guy! I'ma get a divorce, turn gay and marry a guy! Woo hooo!"

I'm completely against the war in Iraq, but 100% supportive of the troops. If we are SOOOO concerned about peoples freedoms blah, blah, then how about we start with the nearest neighbor! Cuba is a commie country and has been a thorn in our side for 50 years! They are less than 100 miles off the coast of America and their people suffer every day. I guess if they had oil, we would have gone there.

I read my news and get my information from Reuters, CNN and the L.A. Times (I know, liberal trash right?). I think these forums should be about cars. That's the only thing we can agree on. Conservative, religious people make me sick. Let me live my life in the way that makes me happy, and you do the same with yours. On that, I'm out, and I'm gonna stick to car topics and wether or not some chick is hot I get far too worked up about this stuff.

[gabossie]

LOL, we can't all agree on cars either. In fact, I would be really afraid if we ALL agreed on ANYTHING. This world was meant to be diverse, there is no one right religion, race, sex, etc...

There is an author that has written a couple of books that are very interesting and I would suggest as a good read for everyone, even if it doesn't support your views on the world, it's just another perspective to at least be aware and educated on. I can't remember his name, or the name of the books, but I'll find them.

[The Mic]

yeah i just finished "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan. Im looking for another page turner while I slap big macs together. WHY THE **** DOES IT NEED 3 GODDAMN BUNS WHEN IT ONLY NEEDS 2?!!1!1!!!

[Cold_Zero]

Hey, buddy, let's try to keep the asswhole-ness to a minimum. It wasn't meant to sway anyone. It was to make a point, just like Jesda's quote. So watch it or before you know it this thread will get closed because of pointless arguing, and I'm enjoying it.

A couple comments about this thread.

1. It grows like wild fire.2. It aint going to be closed because of what I say. It will be closed because of what I do!3. Are people really reading these essay like posts?

bud

[AZhitman]

I can make this REAL simple.

AZhitman for President.

[VimyJ]

Once again, you seem to be unable to remain objective about the issue in your blind raging hatred of President Bush. And people wonder why politics has become so nasty and divisive?

In the article below, the 9/11 Comm. concludes that Saddam didnt join in to cause 9/11, and what the Bush and Clinton administrations said was not inconsistent with intelligence data.(In other words, Bush and Clinton werent lying.)

Blind? Hardly. My eyes are wide open. I watched Powell's pathetic presentation to the UN. Actually, I was hoping for the secret evidence we had all been hearing about to come out so that we could get a righteous war on SH. The drivel that came out was embarrassing. An artist's conception of what a mobile bioweapons lab might look like? I was incredulous! Don't forget, the bushies didn't want to go before the UN in the first place. I wonder why? Then Powell prevails but he is the one forced to recite a pile of crap.

The evidence then and now was hardly convincing to people who think. The lies about yellow cake and allowing the inference that SH was behind the 9-11 attacks to float among the ignorant for months until Rummy spilled the beans show the bushies for what they are.

Face it. The evidence with which bush tried to justify the invasion of Iraq was trumped up BS. No mobile labs. No AQ. No WMD. No mobile labs. No fleets of drones. No banned scuds. No nukes.

If bush is as smart as you hope he is then he wasn't fooled by bogus intel, he was lying.

The same people who get so indignant about a former president's personal life are the first to buy into bush's malarky about an Iraqi threat to US security. There is something rotten in Denmark. The only way to believe in bush's wacked out tail of fictious Iraqi war mongering is if you want to believe it because there is nothing there that can convince an intelligent person with his eyes wide open that Iraq wa a threat to US security.

Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the official notification by the president to the president of the senate and the speaker of the house.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news....html

March 18, 2003

Dear Mr. Speaker: (Dear Mr. President:)

Consistent with section 3(b) of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107-243), and based on information available to me, including that in the enclosed document, I determine that:

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic and other peaceful means alone will neither (A) adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq nor (B) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) acting pursuant to the Constitution and Public Law 107-243 is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorlst organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorlst attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

Sincerely,

GEORGE W. BUSH

Looks like everything the bushies have done has been to try to cover their chickenhawk neo-con a$$es but they're starting to look like their butts are waving around like the prisoners in Baghdad.

Wake up. bush has tried to play America for fools.

Your pal,

Vimy

PS I don't hate you.

[MaineExport]

Yes, a failed presidency that "freed" Millions of oppressed people. Freeing people was never the agenda in Iraq, it was the excuse. It was a political loop hole that consoled people here while we went in and carried out a more political and business oriented agenda.

And how many Iraqi immigrants have you talked to about the whole affair? I have talked to several of them. There is an immigrant family that owns a convenience store down the block from my old apartment. Ask the next one you see what they are more concerned with... the well being of their loved ones still in Iraq, or the US finding large quantities of WMD's to appease the unquenchable thirsts of the liberals who will argue ANYTHING to win an election. The PEOPLE of Iraq are FAR better off today than they were a year ago. You may not want that to be true for your own self-serving reasons, but the fact remains we did the RIGHT thing for whatever reason.

[MN31323]

OKI heard Kerry speak in New Orleans while I was down there on a father son trip. Anyway he seemed like a nice person. Which I suppose is part of the whole running for President thing. However, he was incredible indecisive. I chose to be ignorant of politics until I turn 18. However we recently had a republican canidate come to my Baptist high school. (I am rather atheist but its the parents you see...). I live in Indiana. His name was Mitch Daniels. He also seemed like a nice guy. His opponent, Eric Miller, seemed like an arrogant @$$hole. I would have voted for Eric Miller. Mitch Daniels was indecisive and constantly twisted and avoided simple questions. This is almost the same thing i see happening with the presidential election. I would vote for the @$$hole. I would vote for George W. Bush.

[VimyJ]

Just for ya'lls information, I'm not a radical left wing liberal. I'm a progressive centerist pragmatist and as such there is no way bush gets any support from me seeing as how the adjectives used to describe bush would be opposite to me. Regressive extreme right wing ideologue would be words for the "metro-Texan" from Crawford.

[MaineExport]

There's your joyful liberated. Don't they look ecstatic?

Yes, and one picture surely speaks for an entire population. You obviously must know how ignorant that post is... or maybe you don't....?

[MaineExport]

And like I said, if we are in the business of freeing people why not free the people of North Korea and China!!!! Answer me that buddy!!! And dont tell me that those people are happy and dont need to be freed.

Because not everything in reality works like it does in your "color-by-number" world. This is why foreign policy is left in the hands of those that know what the hell they are talking about...

[AZhitman]

Progressive is in the skewed eye of the beholder.

I could claim the same title.

Chicken or egg? One precedes, one follows, and so on...

Cordon bleu or omelet, Mikey?

[Nathan]

Because not everything in reality works like it does in your "color-by-number" world. This is why foreign policy is left in the hands of those that know what the hell they are talking about...

Yes, and its also left in the hands of those with MUCH more information than we have. Its almost presumptuous of us to think we can even venture opinions on foreign policy given our limited intelligence information. I dont care what you might think, the leaders of this country have much more information available to them than we civilians do.

[AZhitman]

Originally posted by f1seb And like I said, if we are in the business of freeing people why not free the people of North Korea and China!!!!

Great idea! Good to see some TRULY progressive thinking!

While we're at it, Mexico could use some straightening up too, and whoever mentioned taking a crack at Cuba would get my vote immediately.

[MaineExport]

Iraq never attacked and never threatened to attack in word or deed the US.

I don't remember AQ or BL announcing the plans to attack the World Trade Center....

It's funny... we get crap for trying to prevent future attacks... and we get crap for not preventing a past attack? What's a conservative to do? I guess we can only sleep well at night knowing we are doing something for the right reasons and not just to get re-elected.