Blown Locked Up Trashed 92 Q45! Help!

[rrack]

Ok Here it goes. Today started off to be a very nice day down here in San Antonio. I slept in late on my day off planning to have my 92 Q aligned. Well, I took it to a Goodyear shop that I had used in the past at about 11:00. They told me it would be about an hour and a half before they could get to it. I waited. About 30 minutes goes by and I saw one of the techs go jump into my car and tear out of the parking lot spinning the tires. I thought what the heck is going on! I waited and waited and my car never returned. Well, just as I was going to go ask someone what is going on, a manager came into the waiting room to tell another customer that his car is finished. That's an entire other story...he went in for a rotation...he got his oil changed, new filters, and a tune up...Anyway, while the manager was in there, he asked me if I have ever had any problems with my car stalling. I said heck no and it may have had something to do with the tech tearing out of the lot. He said that it just stalled and smoke billowed from under the hood and from the cone intake! Anyway, hours went by with me arguing with the staff. They finally had the car towed back. Come to find out, the engine was seized! There was oil all over the underside of the engine and rack! They claimed that an oil leak caused the blown engine! I know this car inside and out. I had just installed new shock boots last night and I know for a fact that there was no oil leak! Check my driveway! Or better yet, check where the car was parked in the Goodyear lot! I forgot to mention...I've had the chain guides replaced long ago and change the oil with synthetic every 3-4 months.

One thing led to another and I got home about 6:00 pm. I had the car towed to my home at my expense. They maintain that they are not responsible! He said to look for another engine and they'd give me a deal on installing it! I'm in the process of seeking legal advise. They never even told me that they were going to test drive it nor abuse it!

Anyway, might anyone know a good rebuilder close to San Antonio or maybe a complete low mileage 92 engine? I don't have the slightest idea what this is going to cost. I just don't know where to go from here. The car is...well...was in tip top shape with 138,000 miles and drove like new!

Sorry for the lengthy message. I just needed to get this off my chest and try to cope with it.

Robert

[aaacomp]

Using the mother of all ASSumption..that your car was in the shape of good to excellent for the milage. NO leaks, no knocks, etc, oil was all over the top of the engine not the bottom and it was sezied. won't turn over or just won't start. How far away was driven from the shop?Did you sign a shop agreement?Did it state test drive ?Did anyone other than yourself see the shop representative drive off in it IN the fashion you state smoking tires etc.These are all legal questions that will be asked if you retain an attorney

I think you'll learn that the Q engine is not a rebuildable engine. Best bet is a Jap pull or one from a salvage .. Salvage price run from 1200 up to 2500 depending on condition mileage. Cost another 1200-3000 to put it in depending on what has to be replaced.

Back to your engine,, I'm surprized it siezed up..overheat to the max or driving with no oil but your eng light should have been on. It smells to me...

---------------:thumbup

[Jberger]

Bummer,

Sounds like the shop would be at fault on this one. I'd start by calmly and rationally talking with the district manager or owner on Monday. DO NOT PUT ANYTHING IN WRITING, if they do not agree to replace the motor then find a good lawyer and have him write a formal demand letter. You don't want to put anything in writing that could be used against you in court. Usually, a demand letter will solve the issue with no actual court appearance needed. It will also let you know what kind of people you are dealing with and what to expect.

You should also check all the forms you signed and make sure you haven't agreed to binding arbitration, which changes everything.

BTW: I lost the original motor in my car due to a freak bearing problem, and replaced it with a low mileage japanese take out. There are very few shops who could rebuilt the Q motor to factory specs. These early motors are amazingly built and require super fine tolerances and assembly. It's just cheaper to find a QUALITY Japanese Takeout and have it retrofitted. You may also settle for cash with the shop in place of repair. Then all you'd need is to find another quality Q and keep your old one as a spare. If I had it to do all over again, that's the route I would have taken.

[AZhitman]

Robert - Post the manager's name and phone # ASAP. This guys gonna get more calls than he can handle.

Let's all schedule appointments for the next 3 weeks. BASTURDS!

[Ex-CA Driver]

Oh My GAWD! I would be livid. I am so sorry that happened. I understand your frustration RRACK. Here maybe this will help you out a little. There is a company in San Jose CA who sells Jap pull outs and trannys. The name is Attarco. I will see if I can find the number and post. I have had my transmission and engine for 15,000 and they are great. I don't remember the prices right off hand, but I believe the engine was around $1000 and with approx. 35-30K miles on it. Good luck in court. Hmmm, wouldn't a new M45 sound nice with a license trim that said " Look what my mechanic bought me!"

[maxnix]

Robert,

My condolences for dealing with these buffons.

Call your insurance company then call an attorney who specializes in litigation.

Don't touch the car if it is still at Goodyears.

Best of luck. He must have really hammered it. Where in the flock was he going when he peeled out of the lot? It certainly wasn't the alignment bay.

[DAEDALUS]

Take pictures like film was going out of style (it is). Take pics all around the shop, around your car, around your garage, and of the site where the car was towed from. Have a friend ready to film with a camcorder, or keep a tape recorder in your pocket for when you talk to the manager. These might actually help your case, but at the very least they will show the shop you're serious. A good lawyer should be able to hand the shop their head on a platter, but at what cost? Like Jberger says, hopefully there's no binding arbitration requirement, though in this case that might not be too bad if it really is arbitrary.I hope all goes well. Please do post the shop's location and number.

[Q45tech]

We haven't done a 90-93 Q engine change out in about 6 months now as the costs to do the job right [R&R for the long haul not just a slam bam swap] exceed the cars value.It was one thing to do a $6,000 job on a 92 back in 1998 when the cars value was higher now it makes little sense as dealer retail will be $4600-$5600 [maybe $6,000 if pristine] and private sales $1500 under that range.

Obviously engine prices are cheaper in California since the containers are unloaded there! But expect $500 to move it to Texas. Unfortunately the supply at least the ones we get in Atlanta are not nearly the look and quality we used to get 4 years ago and we pay around $1,800-$2,200 delivered to our shop and mark that up 30%. Add to that $500-$1,000 [or more] in parts [new water pump, plugs, hoses, pullies, harness/knock sensors, etc and 30 hours of labor and you get close to the $6,000.

But you get betterment in that a 30,000 mile around town/lots of idling Japanese engine may be no worse than a 60,000 mile US driven engine. Against the typical 120-150k failed engine!

Why do we markup the engine? Because aside from needing to make a profit on parts to stay in business, we pull the valve covers and oil pan on all delivered engines to determine acceptablity and we reject quite a few [cleaned up junkyard domestics that are in the system trying to be palmed off as low mile Japanese units]..................the average shop just install any working engine as is since most will make the 12/12 warranty.

Every engine we have installed since 1997 is still working well as far as we know and some have over 100k more since the swap.

[DDWQ45T]

I agree with Daedalus; take lots of pictures. Espesically any peely marks that might be attributed to your car at the shop. Hell, even if you don't have film in your camera, it will freak out the manager if you make enough of a theatrical production out of it.

Get a good lawyer and pay them to write letters. A contingent settlement will probably run 25-40% of what ever you get, while you can probably get a decent letter or two for a couple of hundred bucks.

What an aggravation. Sorry to hear it happened to you. I trashed a customer's car once on a test drive, but was not at fault. Got t-boned in an intersection by an 88 year old woman who ran a light and drove off. Fortunately a couple of pedestrians saw it, and hung around. The police were able to find her, at home. My customer was a lawyer, so her insurance company ended up buying him a nice new Accord to replace his 5 year old Civic.

Good luck!

[rrack]

Thanks sooooooooooo much for the support guys!

I took two rolls of film today, measured the distance from the shop and where he ended up (1.5 miles!)...with 7 turn-arounds on the divided roadway...why so far just to see which way it pulled...close-ups of the dirveway/parking area demonstrating no signs of a 5 quart oil leak!...tomorrow, she's going up on jacks and i'll take more pics of the belly of the motor. All fresh oil...no grime build up which would denote an old oil leak...not sure if I've ever mentioned...I'm a Crime Scene Investigator...So I know a little about the game...

Anyway, I called Scottsdale and a new engine runs $8,200 plus about $1,500-$2,000 install. Oh yeah, and he didn't know if the new motors have new chain guides. I really don't think that they are gonna go for that. Afterall, blue book on the car is probably half that. I did happen to locate a few used engines (71K & 86K) pulled from totals for between $1600-$2,000.

I'll find out a little more tomorrow when my lawyer calls theirs...turns out they went to law school together and are fairly good buds. "So, I've got that goin' for me".

A huge settlement from a DTP (Deceptive Trade Practice) Lawsuit and a new M45 sounds great but if it comes down to it, at very least, all I want is my Q running again.

I'll post that phone number in the next few days...just don't wanna jinx anything...

...to be continued.

[Q451990]

I'd be really interested in knowing what all comes with the new engine for that price! Given the price of some of the take-out engines + rehab, the certainty of an all new engine sounds like a pretty good deal if you can get it... last I heard they were about $15-$20K, but that was a ballpark estimate from my local dealer - I don't think they'd ever sold one.

I'd try to get them to pay for a new one - then negotiate down to the most expensive Japanese take-out you can find - and then foot the difference for a new one. I'd be very leary of U.S. take-out engines. If they're low mileage they've probably been sitting in a junk yard for many, many years. There are very few 90-93 low mileage Q's around. Engines from the 94-96 won't work due to differences in the crank angle sensors and other wiring harnesses.

If the new engines don't have new guides (I'd bet they do) then they're easy to check/replace before putting the engine in the car.

Heath

[Aus94Q45]

What a terrible deal. I hate to hear it. What is worse is that even with the DTPA's treble damages, you will get a contract-damage recovery (ie. actual value, not punitives) if you prevail. There will be no M45 replacement. What is the commercial value of a 92Q with 138K mi. -- $3500? (We may disagree on this forum, but they will use the book.) Take that times three in the best case scenario with your attorney's fees paid via the DTPA. Thus, $10,500 plus your attoreny costs would be a home run figure here. Also, make sure that your attorney is strongly advocating your position and not compromising your demands with his old law school buddy! It is always a loosing proposition to total an old but very well kept car. You seldom end up back where you were economically with an equal car.

[PalmerWMD]

Like everyone else I am horrified.

I am not nearly as pessimistic though.:thumbup

A service writer at an Infinit dealership in MN once mentioned to me that they had just installed a brand new motor into an Infinti that a oil change place had screwed up.

Retail value on an excellent conditon Q is higher than 3500, besides if they argue you can alwasy tell them to find you a car with the new stuff etc, you had in it.Insist as a minimum on a fully paid (by them) japanese take-out engine installed at dealer.

You will be able to get it.The fact that the lawyers are buddy means you wont have to give up the bank if they have an agreement but neither will the other side I'm not sure if that's good or bad.

You have a clear case.Dont settle low, it will be worth the hassle to get it right.

Fred...

[maxnix]

Aus94Q45 is a practicing attorney, so I think his advice is wise. Even if the Q is only worth $3500, let them total it, buy it back, and install the new engine.

Never go to Goodyear again.

[Q45tech]

The problem is how and what caused it to blow, a well maintained engine won't! Unless it has had internal damage....worn bearings, jumped time etc. You can't just blow one up even by holding 6500 rpm in 1st gear for 10 minutes.Of course WOT on a cold one might, but it would warm up fast.

You need an expert tear down to find the cause? They stall when the guides break or a rod goes through the block.

[Aus94Q45]

Look at the oil pan -- the way that you described him driving, maybe he jumped a curb or parking block???? Or maybe the oil pump gave out. Tough call when there were no witnesses. Speaking of witnesses, can you find any one else in the waiting area who may have seen the mechanic ripping out of the lot with squeeling tires? That may give you of leverage with the owner. They likely have business insurance for "accidents" like this, so do not give in or up too easy. The adjuster will play hard ball. Be prepared for a VERY low initial offer. I would also start collecting valuations on fine condition 92Q's to back you up on a higher valuation.

[aaacomp]

I've had four 1st gen Q's and the one I have now had a new Nissan Engine installed at 93 k Being a reseller I also found the jobber price for a long block engne $7200 10 mos ago. I really like having an engine that I know what's been done to it and that I don't have to worry about it freezing up. But, I'm really really interested in what caused it to seize,,,like Q45 Tech said you can't hardy blow one up. The only thing I can come up with is the oil pump. Let us know what you find out......:thumbup

[maxnix]

Does the engine not turn?

I could see him blowing the transmission doing braked starts and revving the engine, but blowing it is difficult to fathom.

Witnesses are good. If you sue, your attorney can probably compel them to reveal their appointment book to the court.

[rrack]

...spoke with the owner last night. He claims that they videotaped the car and damage. From what he claims that he saw were several severe oil leaks and maintains his position. I told him that this car HAS NO OIL LEAKS! I was under there Thursday installing my shock boots! I've since taken more pics of the dirveway where I park it. I've also spoken to neighbors that witnessed me working on it and where it is parked. I believe that he is going to claim oil leaks and high mileage damaged the car. Well, I know for a fact that 138,000 is not the end of a Q engines life! He claims that these high RMP engines life usually ends around 120k and 130K! I know several of you guys have many more miles. I sold my wifes Mustang 5.0 LX last summer with 216K and a T-bird with 160K!

Just in case this thing ends up in court, would it be possible for you guys to send me semi-official letters stating the mileage and condition of your high mileage Q's? I've got Word and AppleWorks. I'm just gathering as much information as I can.

This guy doesn't know who he's messing with! I plan to eventually take this to Goodyear and the media. I just need to find out what their attorney says about the deal...

Thanks again, Robert

[DAEDALUS]

Send me an email at [email protected]. My car has 215k and purrs like a kitten. It does leak oil from the pan thanks to a shoddy shop--slowly, but otherwise I really do expect to see 300k on it someday. I will be happy to form and sign a statement regarding my car's past 4 years, and even to videotape it with sound if you think that will help. I can probably convert it to an MPEG or some other format. Talk to your lawyer and give us some specifics on what facts you're looking for in addition to mileage. Aside from the guides, I would challenge anyone to find a blown Q motor with 130k.

If it sits well with the powers that be, Q45tech could be the absolute best source of documented Q45 lifespans.

[Aus94Q45]

Your attoreny may want to talk to Dennis -- I would take him up on his offer as a expert on the Q engine characteristics and usable life. The fact that the owner characterized the Q as a high RPM engine that wears out at 120K says that he has no idea what he is talking about. If you car was severe leaking oil in multiple locations, it would have sludge and grime on the undercarriage. If it leaked suddenly and you have maintained it in the condition that you claim, the oil would be clean and nearly clear, absent mixed in dirt embedded in the oil. Have you inspected underneath the car for possible "curb hopping"? I wish that I could help you with a mileage statement, but I am only at 92K on my 94.

[maxnix]

I think you could get Dennis qualified as an expert witness if it came to trial. A letter from him now may go a long way to putting the other attorney on notice what may be in store for Goodyear if this goes to court.

My thoughts only, as I am most definitely not an attorney.

[Q451990]

[quote=" rrack [BJust in case this thing ends up in court, would it be possible for you guys to send me semi-official letters stating the mileage and condition of your high mileage Q's? [/quote]

If it comes to it, I'll be happy to send something about my 90 with 188K+... I think it's time to have someone determine what actually happened to the engine. No leaks one day and lots the next indicate a serious failue - either curb hopping or thrown engine parts. Non-guide failure is very, very, rare.

In any case, there's absolutely no excuse for their tech. to be tearing out of the lot like a bat out of hell with your car... any witnesses to that?

Heath

[rrack]

...and the saga continues...

Local news stations, newspapers, the BBB, and Goodyear will soon be contacted...they don't know who they are messing with. However, I plan to wait and see what they plan to do...either way, I will shut them down!

My attorney and I are now researching the Q's oil pressure warning system. From what I can tell from the service manual, it has the warning lamp. Are there any other types of warnings such as within the trip meter/diagnostic display?

We are also curious if this particular car will "shut down" if pressure falls below a certain level.

Even if they claim that lack of oil caused the failure, his tech should have been aware from warning lamps etc...However, pulling the dip stick still shows a low level of oil in there. Not to mention the large amount all over the bottom of the engine, whatever hit the road, and was burned by the manafold...As I mentioned before, not a single drop in my driveway...Oh I forgot to mention, I changed the oil about 4 weeks ago so it was fine.

...Jeez, what a birthday...Dec 18th I turn 31...

[longrunQ]

today is dec. 18th

Happy birthday man. I hope that this saga turns out to be the best birthday present you get when they have to buy you a brand spanking new engine.

[Chally]

Take note of Aus94Q45. The Oil splatter will be clean & if there was such a BIG leak, then the oil would be splattered all the way to the rear of the vehicle & BURNT onto the exhaust.

A good Mechanic/engineer (or a bad one for that matter) will be able to determine what is & what isn't a new oil leak.

Good luck!

[90Q45blue]

Send me an e-mail at [email protected] if you would like. My car is a 90 Q with 244k on the original engine and counting. When I mean stock, I mean other than new fuel injectors it is like the day the car was bought. Tell Goodyear to put that in their pipe and smoke it.

BTW, I am not yet an attorney but a charge of malicious intent could drive that home run figure up a little.

[Q45tech]

The Q warning oil lamp is set at roughly 3 psi which is below the 14 psi factory minimum for a warm idling car with 10w30.

Every Q engine failure [say 18 in 5 years both stores including the drive in where we didn't replace] we have seen are from overheating, guide, or abusive oil maintenance..........even the sludged up ones run till the rattling and knocking starts.

But you cannot tell the cause without a full expert tear down, even then over 100k is a legal problem since this is the life the government assumes is possible.

Unfortunately you have to prove that they were at fault.

Why I recommend all high mileage [over 100k] have a real electroniic digital oil pressure gauge installed.........you can tell a lot by the idle reading as the oil warms up!

All you or anybody can say is the oil pressure was more than 3 psi if the light didn't come on or the sender was defective OR DISCONNECTED.............completes ground at low pressure to turn on light.............pretty scarey isn't it but this is how all cars work!

Saying 241k is possible on one [or a few] engines [In Georgia] with obsessive maintenance is not the same as saying all engines will last that long..............we can say that almost all the 92Q we service have more than 100k and determine a range but each state is different and a local dealer would make a better witness since they have a vested interest in saying the Q will last.

[rrack]

...just a quick update...found the hole! about a 2x3 inch hole is in the side of the block just above the passenger side engine mount. So far looks like a thrown rod. I now have a local investigavtive news reporter interested. I've spoken to them several times via e-mail.

I may just have to take it to the dealer here and pay them to tear it apart. Just have no idea how much that will run. Then maybe a Japanese pull...I foud a couple for $2,495...the only problem is that they will only give a 6 month warranty. I plan to contact them again and see it they can extend it. Their site claims 5 or 6 year warranties on most engines. Still, if I spend 3-4K I'll have a "new" 92 Q! transmission has already been rebuilt...I replaced all the A/C, new mats, new bues with boots, new poly bushings all round, new mounts, new tires, new upper links and more...

If not, I am preparing myself to sell her as is. This experience has stressed me out way too much. I'm trying to save for a new home and now yesterday the transmission on our Dodge Caravan went out! When it rains it pours. It's been pouring on me all year! Just hope my attorney can do something.

Oh yeah, for great vehicle repair service please visit Two Fat Guys-Goodyear located at 13147 Bandera Rd, Helotes Texas 78023, (210) 695-3737. They will be sure to take great care of your car! Just like mine!

2 other locations with the same owner:6380 Babcock RoadSan Antonio, TX 78249(210) 690-8080

107 Commerce St.Boerne, TX 78006(830) 249-2727

Thanks guys, Robert

[Q45tech]

We have never seen a rod go through the block [but have heard of them]. But they always make noise first unless the cap bolts broke first.In Texas it couldn't have been that cold when it was cranked and driven out?Could have been the 1 in 10,000 engines that had a defective part from Inifiniti........I'm sure out of the 50,000 built in [90-93] that 5-10 were not perfect and 50 might be iffy.... 1/10th of a percent............without historical oil pressure documentation [won't help classifying rods or bolt strength].

Good luck.

Again legally 100,000 miles is it regardless of how long we say other engines last..........not to say you can't get something but since they didn't work on it and only drove it