Best MLS HG. Tomei, ACL, Greddy, HKS; Why Did my head melt!?!

[KEMP]

Which MLS do you prefer i have had cometic, which have not sealed for me, then greddy, which was fine before it melted and blew between 3&4.

Im thinking of going with the ACL... any objections?

also any idea why my head melted? and why it blew a gap in the head and head gasket? it looked as if someone polished a path between cylinders... its plenty rich, and there are no DETONATION marks signs, or any other melting on the head in any other cylinders, i want to make sure this does not happen again, i believe there might have been a flaw in the head, like a scratch or a bur...?

[fabio240]

Where did you find the headgasket from acl at I was thinking about running fel pro but I want around 350hp to the wheels and dont think that fel pro is up to the task...

[KEMP]

acl's website and a few other places

no felpro, it'll blow

[boost_boy]

Which MLS do you prefer i have had cometic, which have not sealed for me, then greddy, which was fine before it melted and blew between 3&4.

Im thinking of going with the ACL... any objections?

also any idea why my head melted? and why it blew a gap in the head and head gasket? it looked as if someone polished a path between cylinders... its plenty rich, and there are no DETONATION marks signs, or any other melting on the head in any other cylinders, i want to make sure this does not happen again, i believe there might have been a flaw in the head, like a scratch or a bur...?

Listen to me and listen to me good. You ask for the advice, it's yours. But remember it comes with criticism, so all you fresh noobs that think you know everything, please do not read as you already know what I'm going to say. KEMP my boy you are a hard-headed joker, but I do commend you for being honest and telling us the truth; for that's the only way we'll be able to properly diagnose your dilemmas.

Now, there's three good reasons why this happened. The first one is the fact that you are running waaaaaaaaaayyyyy too much boost on this engine without the proper tuning. Before you say anything, how many times have you messed-up your motor? And do you want to continue this trend? Whomever is tuning your engine or whatever you're using to tune it, isn't either tuning it correctly or the device you're using isn't being used properly. Just because it runs doesn't mean it's in the condition to go hump 25 psi of boost.

The second reason is possibly an insufficent fuel flow source which could be a bad injector, maybe an injector hiccup under high boost/high load applications. Or maybe it could be a fuel pump that wimps-out under high loads or a faulty regulator. Or just maybe, your fuel pump doesn't have the sufficient amount of voltage it needs to keep the pump pumping to meet your boosting demands. Remember, just because you bought stuff new doesn't mean it's supposed to always work correctly. I know this because I put a brand new autometer pro boost gauge is a current car I'm working for a customer and the damn thing would only show that the engine/turbo combo was producing 1psi of boost. That thing was a straight-up failure and I'm @ssed-out of $50+ dollars. It wasn't the first thing that has failed one me and I'm sure it won't be the last either.

The third reason is possibly too much timing which semi-goes back to tuning. If I don't share anything else with you guys and girls, I truly want you all to know that this engine doesn't like too much timing. And if your SR buddies or KA buddies treat it like such then "Pop goes the weasel".

I know it's rough, but I don't have any other form of delivery for you. You see, I too used to whack engines, melt heads, pistons, and spend a lot of money, so your situation is not unique to me. My advice is to pull the engine and start over again. Be suspect of the things I've mentioned and eliminate them not with your guessing and assumptions, but hard-core facts. I wanna see you guys succeed, but if you are reluctant to take the advice given, you are on your own.

Dee

[r34 gtr]

High EGTs melt cylinder heads. Do you have an EGT gauge? I would highly suggest one, and to stick the probe in the #3 exhaust manifold runner.

[KEMP]

im running a max of 20psi, the timing maps are low accross the board.

the only thin im thinking, which i have been thinking of, is injector problem, which the injectors will be flow tested/rebuilt.

the bottom end is completely fine, why would you even suggest restarting the build on the motor , tht is nonsense.

The other thing im wondering about is the size of my intercooler, which is no sufficent, but is not overly small. It is weird to me that there is no detontion marks on any pistons, head, or ANY scoring, absolutly nothing, the ONLY thing that was wrong was the gap between cylinders, which leads me to injector failure or maybe a flaw in the head from the machine shop?

the afr's are safe, the timing is low, and there is no marks beside the gap, and it had a hiccup on the way to get gas one day, then i drove home and then it happened, im wondering if its injectors, or somthing to that nature, there is only melting inbetween those two cylinders and the head gasket blew/melted between 3&4

i really doubt this is my fault, the rest of the motor is fine.

im leding towards injetors, waht would you say?

FYI bottom end is fine. 4 port head on the way, with acl HG

[meminto]

I am intrigued as to your reason behind so desperately wanting a four port head, I know it is on the way for you..

What is your expectation of it?

[zero_gripS13]

acl looks seems to be same as cometic, my assumption is since the head gasket blew and is in the same spot as the melted area, you driving it caused a combination of the egt from each cylinder to meet and melt the head... why your head geasket blew is probably your main problem, and that could be due to many things dee mentioned a few.

[KEMP]

it simply flows more.

[niscort]

it simply flows more.

seriously though, your proof of this is where?

btw... hope your getting all the bits you need that only fit the 4 port head

[meminto]

Does it really?????

Sweet as, man I need to scour the web and get myself one then.....

Actually I need to get two or three so I can resell them here in oz... I will make some bucky bucks!!

I forgot to add italics....
Modified by meminto at 6:27 PM 8/1/2009

[boost_boy]

it simply flows more.

While having a 4-port head is a bit different, it doesn't explain why you had a melt down and it too can be melted if your issue isn't corrected. As for your bottom end, it's your engine and you can leave it as it is. I was just taking you through a preventive work-over of your already busted motor. You can't see ring lands, but yours is obviously okay or "Fine" as you put it.

Detonation, lack of fuel and few other things caused your melt down. You have an obvious problem with your set-up, but until you get off the defensive, it's going to be hard to help you stop your engine blowing issues. You can use a felpro gasket and go safely make 400+whp. You have to understand that it's not the headgaskets, but the idiots that call themselves "tuners" that are causing engine to blow.

I put a cometic h/g with stock rod bolts in a customer's/NICO member's car without machining her block and it doesn't leak near the rear that most of you claim. Maybe I'm lucky or you guys are definitely doing something wrong. And to top it all of, she's using the stock ECCS system that I wired for her and everything functions properly. I also installed A/C and when I turn it on, the car fast idles. The car fast idles when it's cold and when the fast idles stop, it idles at a smooth 950rpm. Oh, did I mention that it's automatic CA? I also upgraded the turbo to a T28 and it runs 10psi of steady boost all day, everyday.

Bottom line is, it doesn't matter what h/g you put it in. But if you don't know what you're doing it, you will have most of the problems that most of you experience. That experience is a good teacher and maybe one day sme of you will learn your own lessons like I have had to. Good luck with that engine "Kemp".

Dee

[NUT-CSE]

Does it really?????

Sweet as, man I need to scour the web and get myself one then.....

Actually I need to get two or three so I can resell them here in oz... I will make some bucky bucks!!

I managed to find one in the UK, only one person out of about 10 was willing to post it down to OZ and shipping was almost twice as much as what i paid for the head.

Regardless id still like to stock pile afew myself, since i have not seen anyone down here runing a 4 port head.

[JNM240]

I also installed A/C and when I turn it on, the car fast idles. The car fast idles when it's cold and when the fast idles stop, it idles at a smooth 950rpm.

Dee

I KNOW, OFF TOPIC:

I still wanna know what you did to get the fast idle on the A/C working. Ive got my A/C installed, but i have to manipluate the switch, only turning it on while cruising, turning it off at a stop so it wont kill the car.

[21FOX21]

I have used both ACL and Cometic and have had not one problem with either.

[boost_boy]

I KNOW, OFF TOPIC:

I still wanna know what you did to get the fast idle on the A/C working. Ive got my A/C installed, but i have to manipluate the switch, only turning it on while cruising, turning it off at a stop so it wont kill the car.

I'll drop you an email on it or if you still have my number, give me a call.

Dee

[KEMP]

dee, i since pulled the motor apart, the pistons were fine as i assumed, and so were the walls.

but what do you think did this? failed injector? what else could it be, timing is very conservative and there is plenty of fuel according to the wideband.

so now that you know the bottom is fine, how can you say that i had a problem there, im wondering if i just blew the gasket between cylinders and over time melted the head by leaking combustion through those two cylinders.

any other thoughts or ideas?

and what do you mean the 4port head is different? i will have the 4port intake mani as well, i didnt think there were any more differences..

DEE not trying to be a d!ck, but you always say the bottom end is toast, and its not, so go from there and help me out...any way its just some stupid freak accident? like a blown head gasket that continualy got worse?

Thanks Kemp

[ragenasian]

I can get the 4 port heads pretty easily and can ship them to the US fairly cheap. If you are SERIOUS then you can send me an email and I can help you out. I have shipped a few to the US already without any problems.

[email protected]

Just so you know the heads will be in Euro

[dhessian]

nobody is being a d!ck kemp we just assumed you were assuming the bottem end was fine, and it was an assumption on your part at first, because you yourself used the word assume. We have been giving you solid advice this entire time, but you obviously like learning the hard way. How you melted a metal headgasket, and an aluminum head without doing harm to your ringlands is beyond me, forged pistons or not. Are you assuming the pistons are fine because they arent melted and in pieces? Are you assuming your injectors are all fine without having them flowtested? Are you assuming your AFR's are in the ballpark looking at what wideband? AEM? You have a big turbo with big turbos the margin for error goes down and things get smoked easier when all isnt well.

lastly, are you assuming you have a good tuner writing your maps? ( ks13 )

[meminto]

He also assumes that the magical four port head flows more.

Oh well as you said he will learn the hard way.

[KEMP]

the injectors will be flow tested, trust me.

the head melted directly between cylinders, its a gap in the head.

its about a quater inch wide gap between cylinders, maybe a little smaller of a gap.

the wideband is innovate. and you all keep sayin things about the bottom, but its fine, and noone can seem to point a finger on what exactly happened, the head blew between the cylinders and the gasket, but its not like a big gap or big piece melted away.

also what were the diferences on the 4 port head, do i need anything else besides the lower intake manifold to bolt it up?

thanks

[r34 gtr]

Seriously, get an EGT gauge. I can drive down the interstate with a 12.5:1 AFR and still have 1900 F EGTs. I've done it. I turned around and drove home immediately at 35mph.

Point is, everything can seem fine and in actuality be terribly horribly wrong. My timing maps seem like they would be nice and gentle and peachy, but they are not. If I had not had the proper instrumentation and been paying close attention to said instrumentation (actually my peak/warning gauge went *BEEEEEEEEE* and flashed red) I would never have known and my cylinder head would also be toast, like yours.

MLS head gaskets don't just go poof. Something was wrong.

So I submit to you, this:

Get your injectors cleaned and flow tested and whatnot. Its cheap - $18/ea at deatschwerks, a NICO sponsor.

Buy and install an EGT gauge. They are not expensive. The Prosport I have can be had for $110 out the door, and you can find a good used one on here for under $70. I have seen them for less recently (Greddy, STRI, etc.).

Have someone tune your car, and until you do, keep it at wastegate pressure, and don't get into the boost. It really isn't that hard. Try enjoying the good fuel economy, or ride your bicycle. Jon (slw240sx) is right down the road and has already offered. Take him up on it.

Thanks,

- Tim

[KEMP]

ok, well what are normal and bad EGT numbers?

and if the egt's get too hot is something wrong or should i just let it cool down for a bit?

i will get one.

and put it in 3rd cylinder?

Thank you.

[dhessian]

EGT's still in the combustion chamber not even exhausted yet, hot enough to melt a metal headgasket and blow a gorge in the head between 2 cylinders would result in a lump of molten metal under your hood.

You need to free air calibrate your wideband o2

You need to make sure your fuel injectors are flowing around 700cc per injector

You need to verify your boost gauge isnt lying

You need to start with 15 psi and stop kicking the door down with 20psi and that big t3 topmount.

You need to verify to yourself that your tuner is up to the task, who is calibrating your ECU? Nistune still?

ks13

[meminto]

What are the differences between heads? Besides the bolt on physical differences?

The difference is, there is no difference in flow between the heads for a given lift amount, it is negligible.

Its your money, your time and your effort so it's your call what you do between heads, but don't say "it simply flows more" without knowing the information. I am just trying to save you more dissapointment and wasted resources, but its your bag so go for it, I sincerely hope it all works out for you as you have suffered with your motor woes.

I have all the information I need on paper for both JDM and Euro stock heads. I am sorry, this time I will be selfish, I will not share it as I searched long and hard for the information for many many months, everytime I asked people for cross section information, or flow information no-one would provide it....

Co-incidence? or more that once they calculated it themselves, they realised that it was an interent myth and wanted to save face? Who knows..

I have read posts in forums, and discussed off topic with a number of different people who insist that its a better head because the ports look bigger (hell I for one used to believe the same thing, wholeheartedly, and I will freely admit I was totally wrong to believe it without the hard evidence) but the laws of physics don'tt obey humans optical rules unfortunately, no matter how hard they want to believe.

Feel free to measure your cross sectional area for yourself on BOTH inlet and exhaust sides and use the formular to calculate. You will come to the same conclusion if your calculations are correct.

[r34 gtr]

I think the rule of thumb is that anything over 1900 F is cause for alarm, unless you know exactly what is going on. Chances are, you won't. I usually try and keep them in the 1450-1550 F range for quicker turbo spool action, but I like to have them slightly lower when its really working (i.e. turbo is spooled), so ballpark of 1200-1400 F. I understand some still consider these somewhat high though.

Keep in mind I am no authority on the subject whatsoever. It is just what I have been told and so far it has worked out reasonably well. Other people will probably give you different answers.
Modified by r34 gtr at 11:27 AM 8/4/2009

[boost_boy]

I'll keep my 9-port head and "yes" I meant 9 port because it really does have 9 ports (8 intake and 1 water inlet/outlet port). I never entertained the euro head because in my experiences, the euro head can't be that much better than the 8 port head. If you'd ever driven one of my cars, then you really wouldn't entertain the thought either because they are just that qucik. And if the euro head did flow better, how much better are we talking about here? Seriously guys, most of you will never know the full potential of this motor because you entertain too many biased opinions, including mine.

A true enthusiast will take what he has already and push it to its limits to see just how good his components really are. Running 20+ psi of boost doesn't mean your engine is going to sing with excitement. As a matter of fact for example: running that much boost through an engine that doesn't have competent components or a competent tuner is just like having unprotected sex with a hooker in Mexico City (You're taking chances). And if you're foolish enough to put your most valued pleasure tool into something you know nothing about, only the fact that you will eventually be pleasured, is the same thing you did to your engine (Overboosted it).

Go back a few posts and look at the remedies/causes I gave you. If you still chose to question me, that's fine. But you will be out on a limb, completely frustrated and ready to sell your lump once it fails again. I'm here to teach, not mislead. I speak from experiences and not from hypothesis. I asked you to inspect your bottom end because for preventive measures. You have not a clue as to what's going on between those pistons and cylinder walls. If you want proof, I'll show you 4 of a customers pistons that were normal looking on the surface, but all 4 had cracked ringlands. All factual my friend and after 13 years of this, I should know enough to teach; though I don't know everything. Later

Dee

[dash]

sdsefi.com tech page had some good info on tuning vs high EGT. Timing too safe/conservative can raise EGTs considerably iirc.

Quote »there is no difference in flow between the heads for a given lift amount, it is negligible.Its your money, your time and your effort [/quote]...and so was Nissans'. If it was ok for those 'dummys' to "waste"(?) their money (huge expense), time and effort for "no difference".... it should be "ok" for any of us mere mortals to, eh ? Reckon nissan R&D have a clue ?

For some reason it appears the JDM focus was on enhancing the weak low-end torque characteristics of the CA18DET - butterflys, 0.48 turbine housing, diff gearing

lots of first hand accounts of '4 vs 8 port' info in the early days of sxoc.I'm not talking about flow, port measurements or any of that foolishness, but the business end rather = what actually happens at the rear tires.Long story short... some replaced their tired 4 port with an 8 port motor. They preferred the performance of the 4, so they switched the head/intake only, to "regain their performance". Some tinkered with butterfly operation, others removed 'em etc.Been so long since reading feedback, a least that is the jist, from observation.

Enough 4 port combos detailed for review..... from kitten to monster. Choose one.I still don't know how their "brake hp" compares to our whp figures tho.

Luckily I got both. My interest lies only in comparing torque enhancement from butterfly tinkering... street driveability/T28(0.48)/16g etc.Once my tuning skills developed, 4 port gets the goodies/go-ahead to get wild.

On another note, I never trip over head flow numbers, like everyone praises hondas for example. Even with hi peak hp number, they get their arse waxed on the regular, any given day - so big fkn deal

[bentvalves]

sdsefi.com tech page had some good info on tuning vs high EGT. Timing too safe/conservative can raise EGTs considerably iirc.

conservative timing is only allowing unburnt fuel into the exhaust/turbine which still wouldnt explain the gorge between cylinders in the head and missing accompanying headgasket.

[KEMP]

so do i need anything besides the lower intake manifold to make the head work on my car?

the only reason now im getting the 4port is because its cheaper than the 8port i found.