Anyone tried Hydrogen?

[rb25drag]

Anyone Tried this on there car?

http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm

Im curious to if this works?

I wouldn't do it on the RB eninge, But just curious about a DD.

[Shocker]

most likely the wrong section for this...

maybe I'll try it on my old beater.. sounds to good to be true however...

[Carl H]

lol if you buy into that you'll buy into anything.it takes more energy to seperate water than the energy created from combustion returns.

[splitime]

Man... I guess gas prices are pushing people to drink.

A good bunch of the forums I roam... have been adding stickies to stop people from asking about these scams.

[Coolwhip]

I wouldn't do it on the RB eninge, But just curious about a DD.

How about both...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRb5Me3rALA

bla bla bla...

Gasoline is King

[rb25drag]

I dunno if its a scam or not just curious to if someone has actually tried it or not. As high as gas is, Im sure it will push people into buying into almost anything.

I work 64 miles 1 way from home, Which I spend close to 120$ a week just in gas on my DD to get there and back. Something as simple as this would be cool to try. But I don't know much about hydrogen and exactly how much it actually takes to work.

So does anyone have any real experience or know anyone who has? Other than just saying its a scam.

[Joe]

jesus christ of course its a scam

why is it a scam?

because if you could run your ****ing car on water EVERYONE WOULD BE DOING IT ALREADY.

use some common sense. if this garbage worked he wouldnt have a website that was put together by a 7 year old, it would be all over the news, people would be talking about it everywhere.

its not that simple. somebody call BMW, GM, Ford, Toyota, and Nissan and tell them to stop working on their hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. this idiot has figured it out already

[gawdzilla]

not doing the propane anymore?

[Shocker]

What are you guys talking about?! it obviously works!

User wrote in.. :Landrover 1969 Diesel - from 27.87 MPG to 71.43 MPG!!!! (256%)

[rb25drag]

not doing the propane anymore?

Nah Im still doing propane!! That Idea is still in the works!!

Should be giving you guys updates on that thread shortly.

I just read about this stuff and was thinking about my DD!!

[ItzGenX]

Actually these HHO or Brown Gas devices work to some extent. Even though you produce less energy then it takes to split the water, a small mix of HHO in the combustion chamber helps stabilize gasoline's violent burn. In other words, it is sort of like an octane buffer that also makes additional power on it's own. When it combusts, it turns right back into water and has an implosion effect. Then the small amount of water (not even a drop) will vaporize in the gasoline's flame front and expand again in flash steam. This all allows the vehicle to produce the same amount of power with a leaner mix of gasoline and avoiding the adverse effects of a lean burn at the same time.

I've made plenty of simple electrolyzers for clean burn torches and such. I even have one installed on my 92' Accord EX 2DR 5SPD daily driver. It went from 28mpg to 41mpg. Installing one on a car will require some sort of leaning trickery. "Why?" you ask? Well the extra oxygen from splitting water is added to the oxygen already present in ambient air. All this extra oxygen produces a more robust and complete burn causing the oxygen sensor to trip out into a Lean Alarm to the ecu. A simple AFC, EFIE, or like me, a simple oxygen sensor spacer can prevent the lean alert causing the ecu to dump in more fuel. My oxygen sensor spacer is made from a spark plug non fouler. All you do is drill out the center to 1/2" to allow the tip of the oxygen sensor to fit into it. Screw the sensor with spacer back into the exhaust and voila. I've also created a pulse circuit so that my unit still makes the same amount of HHO, but only draws 1/3 of the amperage (8 amps instead of 25 amps without it).

I do however think those websites are scams based on how much they charge for the units. It only costs maybe $50 bucks to make one. They also do not tell you that you will need to lean out your car somehow. So bolting on one of their units 'as is' will actually cause you to burn more fuel. If you are wondering how it works, spend a little free time and search youtube for HHO, Electrolysis, Hydrogen Water, Stanley Meyers, Bob Boyce, etc.

If you still do not think it is possible, check out the Scorpion. It comes with a OEM factory created electrolysis system. http://www.motorauthority.com/...-car/

Next time, do your research before crying. There are communities as large as car forums if you search around. http://www.overunity.com

[Racinjitter]

Actually these HHO or Brown Gas devices work to some extent. Even though you produce less energy then it takes to split the water, a small mix of HHO in the combustion chamber helps stabilize gasoline's violent burn. In other words, it is sort of like an octane buffer that also makes additional power on it's own. When it combusts, it turns right back into water and has an implosion effect. Then the small amount of water (not even a drop) will vaporize in the gasoline's flame front and expand again in flash steam. This all allows the vehicle to produce the same amount of power with a leaner mix of gasoline and avoiding the adverse effects of a lean burn at the same time.

I've made plenty of simple electrolyzers for clean burn torches and such. I even have one installed on my 92' Accord EX 2DR 5SPD daily driver. It went from 28mpg to 41mpg. Installing one on a car will require some sort of leaning trickery. "Why?" you ask? Well the extra oxygen from splitting water is added to the oxygen already present in ambient air. All this extra oxygen produces a more robust and complete burn causing the oxygen sensor to trip out into a Lean Alarm to the ecu. A simple AFC, EFIE, or like me, a simple oxygen sensor spacer can prevent the lean alert causing the ecu to dump in more fuel. My oxygen sensor spacer is made from a spark plug non fouler. All you do is drill out the center to 1/2" to allow the tip of the oxygen sensor to fit into it. Screw the sensor with spacer back into the exhaust and voila. I've also created a pulse circuit so that my unit still makes the same amount of HHO, but only draws 1/3 of the amperage (8 amps instead of 25 amps without it).

I do however think those websites are scams based on how much they charge for the units. It only costs maybe $50 bucks to make one. They also do not tell you that you will need to lean out your car somehow. So bolting on one of their units 'as is' will actually cause you to burn more fuel. If you are wondering how it works, spend a little free time and search youtube for HHO, Electrolysis, Hydrogen Water, Stanley Meyers, Bob Boyce, etc.

If you still do not think it is possible, check out the Scorpion. It comes with a OEM factory created electrolysis system. http://www.motorauthority.com/...-car/

Next time, do your research before crying. There are communities as large as car forums if you search around. http://www.overunity.com

First, a little background on me. I have worked for Ford and am currently working for GM. For ford I worked in the hybrid division and was a part of the R&D of the Fuel cell focus. Currently I am a high voltage batttery calibration engineer for GM....

Ok, there may be a slight benefit to doing this, however it will not be 200% maybe 10-20% increase, but that is only because you are LEANING out your fuel system!!! Yea, keep some extra spark plugs around. ^ You said it yourself...

If it were this easy to do, as someone else already said, ALL of the car manufacturers would already be running it. If it doesnt have any adverse effects anyhow. Obviously when you lean out your engine you are raising the combustion temperatures, even with this "water" injection the temps will be threshold of what the combustion chamber will take before failure.

[ItzGenX]

My plugs are fine and have been for over a year. The combustion temps do not go that high as to have a failure. If you lean the engine out this much without having such a system installed, then yes, it will cause some damage. The point is, the system allows alternative fueling elsewhere, meaning you can input less of your primary fuel source into the mix. It is the only reason you can lean it out to begin with. Do the math, if you take out this much gasoline here, you can cover it by adding this much hydrogen to take up the slack. Hydrogen has a leaner combustable air ratio then gasoline. Also, water as a liquid has the highest thermal absorbtion rate then any other available liquid. This becomes additional octane rating for the gasoline. Car manufacturers have their cars tuned to run RICH. Why you say? Everyone here knows why we run rich. They use that extra fuel to cool the temps to prevent damage. Remember that thing about water being a better thermal sponge then gasoline? Here is where it shines. Not only do you get to replace that EXTRA fuel they use to cool the combustion temps, since the hydrogen mix adds some power AND COOLS BETTER, you can lean out a hair further and still make the same amount of power. You may see it as simple as all that is happening is you are running lean, but you have to see why you CAN run lean in this process.

Manufacturers see this as impractical. This is because these hydrogen WFC's produce differently based on what kind of water is tossed into there. If it is tap water, sludge from the junk in the tap water will form in the reaction chamber needing to be cleaned very very often. If it is plain distilled water, the water has too much electrical resistance to even get the system jump started to produce hydrogen in the first place. We water fuel cell guys usually use distilled water with a small percentage of potassium hydroxide or KOH, as an electrolyte (and this stuff is dangerous for your every day Joe-Shmoe to service on his car when he needs to refill his water tank and check the electrolyte ratio). There is an alternative to adding baking soda to it, but it isn't as efficient, and it needs to be added to the system more frequently. KOH was added to my system only 3 times in a little over a year since I've had it (KOH does not get used up in the electrolysis process but does deteriorate very very slowly). 25k miles later, I can still vouch for it. Like I said, it is too impractical for your everyday type of people to run one, and this is why the car manufacturers do not want to jump into it. Customers can cause some major damage to the vehicle or themselves if they do not know what they are doing with it. A small concentrated bubble of hydrogen/oxygen mix the size of a golf ball sounds like a 12 gauge shotgun going off. If this mixture goes inside the cell from tampering with it, the cell will go off like a grenade, shrapnel and all. When hydrogen and oxygen are present in a concentrated space at an exact stochiometic (sp?) mix (two H's, one O, or 2:1 Ratio H:O), the flame propogates 50-100 times faster then gasoline. This is why care needs to be taken when working on the cell, and it is something manufacturers do not want any customers fiddling with.

[silviasgp06]

wow that first link is almost identical to the device we used in high school physics, sure it will separate water into hydrogen and water but no where near fast enough to be useful.

isnt HHO water? H2O or di-hydrogen monoxide(2 hydrogen, one oxygen) maybe im wrong and its a gas form where the two hydrogens are not combined or something. i dont remember much from chem.

so if im not wrong this sounds alot like water injection? cooling the combustion temps with water to be able to run lean, just for economy and not power.

[Kansei240sx]

ItzGenX, I wonder what kind of adverse effects its having on the cylinder walls of your engine?

Not only is gasoline a fuel, as well as a coolant, but it also helps despite what some may think, a lubricant as well.

When this water is injected into your engine, i assume that the water is mixed in with the fuel which hits the valve faces/margin/seats?

Im all about saving gas, and all the more power to you if your systems works problems free, but in a power application, and anyone here for that matter, if you have concerns about fuel mileage on a performance oriented S chassis (or any for that matter) with an RB, you probably dont have any business putting tools near one let alone driving it, thats what DD's are for, but seeing you have one, ill just save that for everyone else.

[rb25drag]

Thanks for the posts guys, Alot of info in here. Whether it works or not, I think im going to try and build one of my own and try it on my DD, S10 pickup, That will answer my question of if it works or not. As for trying to save gas on the Rb? HAHA I don't think I care about it. It hardly ever moves anyways. If your really worried about combustion temps then you need to convert to alcohol.

ItzGenX, I would like to see some pics of your setup.

[S14-NEO]

i will be anxiously waiting to hear what your results are..i have been reading about this very system myself and would like to hear some results from people that i talk with rather than a complete and total stranger. i too am not looking at it as a power adder but rather a MPG booster for my DD as well.

[HxC_Nismo]

it looks like a cheap meth injection kit to me wich they use (50% meth, 50% water) and it increases your octane level wich is why alot of those people noticed there pos car stopped pinging lmao. i would try one on my DD civic, if there cheap but if they are exspensive i wouldnt even wast my time.

[ItzGenX]

Thanks for the posts guys, Alot of info in here. Whether it works or not, I think im going to try and build one of my own and try it on my DD, S10 pickup, That will answer my question of if it works or not. As for trying to save gas on the Rb? HAHA I don't think I care about it. It hardly ever moves anyways. If your really worried about combustion temps then you need to convert to alcohol.

ItzGenX, I would like to see some pics of your setup.

My digi cam broke when my cousin was holding it out the window to get a better view of a street race. Well lets just say he slipped and at 100mph, it didn't stay in one piece. He now owes me a digi cam btw. My setup design is what is known as a "Smacks Booster". The plans are readily available across the internet if you search it by that name. The only addition I have is a "Dave Lawton D14" circuit that I built from the schematics I found. I have the unit itself ziptied between the A/C condensor and bumper support with the top of it visible if I pop off my honda grill. That way I can easily service it without removing the whole thing if need be. I have the PDF file "how-to" for building the cell itself. I do not have a place to upload it to though.

On another note, I would never install such a device on an RB or any performance motor for that matter. The intention of the thread to begin with wasn't to put it on the RB, but his DD in the first post.

Gasoline may play a slight role in cylinder lubrication, but it also has it's own deadly role as a cylinder washer if ran too rich. Gasoline also destroys oil's lubrication properties very quickly. I think the design of the oil rings on the pistons do their part just fine for the cylinders of any modern day engine. They wipe away any excess oil and leave a nice film on the cylinder walls.

The small amount of flash steam created when the hydrogen recombines with the oxygen is not enough to overly saturate the motor to cause rust or blow out any flame propogation. It is actually less moisture then driving in the rain with that humid air entering your intake.

ICE's can withstand a whole lot more flash steam safely than many would notice. I run water mist injection (without any alchohol mixed) on my SR22. It really helps a ton with high EGT's when I turn the boost up. I also get away with a more agressive timing maps. I use an Aquamist system. http://www.aquamist.co.uk/. There are no adverse affects to my engine, and it has been on my car for a good 2 years now. This system goes through way more water then my Accord's hydrogen cell due to it spraying in pure water instead of splitting it into it's gas form. One liter of water can be split into 1,800 liters of hydrogen and oxygen mix.

All in all, those of you who are sceptical, I will not try to change your minds or win you over on it. I would recommend this for any good ole daily driver. My 16 year old Honda Accord gets 41mpg with mix city and highway driving. It has 277,000 miles on it... still kicking strong. I get about 45ish on pure highway trips. I have a cousin that owns a Toyota Prius and her average mpg on long trips is also 45mpg except her car cost a ton more then my $800 beater. So sceptical as you may be, it seems I am doing something right in order to 'compete' with a modern day hybrid electric/gasoline car.
Modified by ItzGenX at 9:41 PM 6/12/2008

[Racinjitter]

My plugs are fine and have been for over a year. The combustion temps do not go that high as to have a failure. If you lean the engine out this much without having such a system installed, then yes, it will cause some damage. The point is, the system allows alternative fueling elsewhere, meaning you can input less of your primary fuel source into the mix. It is the only reason you can lean it out to begin with. Do the math, if you take out this much gasoline here, you can cover it by adding this much hydrogen to take up the slack. Hydrogen has a leaner combustable air ratio then gasoline. Also, water as a liquid has the highest thermal absorbtion rate then any other available liquid. This becomes additional octane rating for the gasoline. Car manufacturers have their cars tuned to run RICH. Why you say? Everyone here knows why we run rich. They use that extra fuel to cool the temps to prevent damage. Remember that thing about water being a better thermal sponge then gasoline? Here is where it shines. Not only do you get to replace that EXTRA fuel they use to cool the combustion temps, since the hydrogen mix adds some power AND COOLS BETTER, you can lean out a hair further and still make the same amount of power. You may see it as simple as all that is happening is you are running lean, but you have to see why you CAN run lean in this process.

Manufacturers see this as impractical. This is because these hydrogen WFC's produce differently based on what kind of water is tossed into there. If it is tap water, sludge from the junk in the tap water will form in the reaction chamber needing to be cleaned very very often. If it is plain distilled water, the water has too much electrical resistance to even get the system jump started to produce hydrogen in the first place. We water fuel cell guys usually use distilled water with a small percentage of potassium hydroxide or KOH, as an electrolyte (and this stuff is dangerous for your every day Joe-Shmoe to service on his car when he needs to refill his water tank and check the electrolyte ratio). There is an alternative to adding baking soda to it, but it isn't as efficient, and it needs to be added to the system more frequently. KOH was added to my system only 3 times in a little over a year since I've had it (KOH does not get used up in the electrolysis process but does deteriorate very very slowly). 25k miles later, I can still vouch for it. Like I said, it is too impractical for your everyday type of people to run one, and this is why the car manufacturers do not want to jump into it. Customers can cause some major damage to the vehicle or themselves if they do not know what they are doing with it. A small concentrated bubble of hydrogen/oxygen mix the size of a golf ball sounds like a 12 gauge shotgun going off. If this mixture goes inside the cell from tampering with it, the cell will go off like a grenade, shrapnel and all. When hydrogen and oxygen are present in a concentrated space at an exact stochiometic (sp?) mix (two H's, one O, or 2:1 Ratio H:O), the flame propogates 50-100 times faster then gasoline. This is why care needs to be taken when working on the cell, and it is something manufacturers do not want any customers fiddling with.

You talk like you work for a major car manufacturer. I mean you are talking for them, by saying that this "kit" is impractical to them...

I dont doubt your car's mileage. But I do doubt the reasons as to why it is getting this mileage.

Manufacturers tune their cars to run rich? WTF? You have no idea what you are talking about. Just stop. So what you are saying is that 17:1 during cruise is rich for a gasoline engine? BTW Greg Banish works with me. I think that if you were ever a first time tuner, you should know his name. We had a conversation about these HHO kits today.... It ended up in laughter.

I am sorry but IF you think you can prove a 16 billion dollar/year industry in R&D wrong, you are sadly mistaken.

I am done with this topic.

[ItzGenX]

You talk like you work for a major car manufacturer. I mean you are talking for them, by saying that this "kit" is impractical to them...

I dont doubt your car's mileage. But I do doubt the reasons as to why it is getting this mileage.

Manufacturers tune their cars to run rich? WTF? You have no idea what you are talking about. Just stop. So what you are saying is that 17:1 during cruise is rich for a gasoline engine? BTW Greg Banish works with me. I think that if you were ever a first time tuner, you should know his name. We had a conversation about these HHO kits today.... It ended up in laughter.

I am sorry but IF you think you can prove a 16 billion dollar/year industry in R&D wrong, you are sadly mistaken.

I am done with this topic.

LOL, someone is really feeling high and mighty today eh? I was never trying to prove the industry R&D wrong. When did I say that? Let me clarify for you since you like to take every little thing very litteral and analyze it til it makes you get the runs through the rear. You also like to pretty much call people stupid without just saying they are right? Just because you are working in such a nice place and know their technology etc, doesn't mean you can fully doubt another. You take it like it is so obsolete and wrong. You must have been one of those kids when growing up that thought there was only one right way for everything, and that right way was through you right? So the world is wrong... ok... . Next time add some productive information about the topic of a thread or just keep your peace. It is like you brought tires to work a train station, totally pointless.

I recommend a mod go ahead and shut this thread down. Any info on the TOPIC of the thread has already been stated, so leave it at that. This Ford/GM guy isn't adding to the productivity of it, just trying to steal the thunder of the topic.

[rb25drag]

Well No need to lock the thread just yet, Im building one of these kits myself, ill give you guys the update here in a week. I just switched jobs again LOL, but I now travel 68 miles 1 way to work. So I am def in need of a gas saver. Ill be able to tell the results in 3 days after the kit is installed due to I have to fill up every 3 days normally now.

[240z4u]

RB25DRAG how did I know you would guinea pig this? Let us know how it goes!

Evan

BTW, sounds like time to move.

[archaeic_bloke]

im gonng say this is pretty far fetched.

[rb25drag]

RB25DRAG how did I know you would guinea pig this? Let us know how it goes!

Evan

BTW, sounds like time to move.

I heard this from my dad, He installed one of those kits for a guy this past week so we are deciding to look into it a little more.

Ya, I plan on moving by the end of the year. But right no its still cheaper for me to live were im at.

[rb25drag]

I got the hydrogen canister built





And Installed in my truck.



We will be testing it all this week.

[RockStar240]

not bad for your first design but you need more surface area. The way i have been running my new cells is with stainless steel tubes. A larger negative tube is placed on the outside while a smallerpositive tube is on the inside. With the increases surface area more hydrogen can be produced with less amperage. Also get your washers closer together it will help alot. Plate designs are also popular because SS plate it easy to find and cheap and with many plates alot of hydrogen can be produce. Go on youtube there are some great movies on different designs so you can see what some people getting large numbers are using for electrolysis.

GOOD JOB on join the hydrogen conversion crowd are numbers are growing quickly... there is a ton of info online about making them work better so just search and read everything, some is crap but the good stuff will make you into a hydrogen expert.

[ItzGenX]

Yea that cell you made won't last very long or produce much. The spacing is too far apart which will cause way too much current leakage. The washers also do not look stainless. Stainless steel is the way to go when it comes to making these things. Stay away from glass containers. When they pop, consider it a glass claymore. Glass jars are great as a controlled bench experiment. In a car, with vibrations, extra heat, and gforces, anything can happen at any time. My test rig is a big pickle jar. My final cells are always in a PVC pipe. It is a good idea to bench test them before trying to throw them in a car. I uploaded my PDF file I found of the smacks booster onto my Fileden. I run the same design but modified slightly to my liking from bench experiments etc. This is also a great 'starter' design due to pricing.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2...r.pdf right click link, save as...

I have found wall plates are a great starting point for someone experimenting, because they are all very closely uniform to each other, and they do not cost much. Double tube design without any neutral tubes (just + -, one inside of the other) work great, probably due to less current leakage. There is also the "Joe Cell" which is a tube version of the Smack's (one -, one +, lots of neutral plates). Through experimenting, I also found a sealed plate design similar to the Bob Boyce cell is VERY VERY efficient, especially with pulsing electronics. This is probably due to NO current leakage. Mine is semi sealed with a custom acrylic casing I made around the cell plates.

As for a electrolysis catalyst, I would recommend baking soda and distilled water or rain water. This is to prevent you from throwing in Caustic Soda or Caustic Potash and having something go wrong during testing. Add only a little at a time and monitor current. The more you throw in, the higher the current draw. DO NOT USE SALT! Salt get's used in the process, and even absorbs a good amount of the oxygen atoms in it's place. The by-product of using salt is Hydrogen, some Oxygen, and a very poisonous gas known as Chlorine Oxide.

Always use a bubbler during bench testing. Have the bubbler filled as high as possible for starters. A simple bubbler I use is just a plastic container that is filled with water (bowl, soda bottle, disposable cups, etc). Slip the output tube of the cell to the bottom of this open container. This seperates the tube and cell from any dangerous ignitions, whether intentional or accidental. I used to add a little bit of soap to my bubbler water so that the bubbles will bunch up, just to see how loud the pop was. A chunk of bubbles the size of a golfball sounds like a shotgun . This gives you an idea of how powerful the stuff you are playing with really is. It also gives you an idea of how fast hydrogen burns with a 2:1 ratio of Oxygen. As always, wear safety goggles and keep a safe distance. I used a propane burner electric spark ignitor with extended wires to my button (the detonator).

For kicks, I slipped the output tube of the cell into a balloon and let it inflate to about 9 inches in diameter. I tied it up and taped the ballon to the end of an extended painter's stick (goes to about 14 ft. long). Then I put the balloon end into a small fire. I couldn't hear anything but ringing for a good 5 minutes. Sounds like a bomb...

[rb25drag]

So what is your recommendation of washer spacing? 1/4 inch?

[RockStar240]

maybe even more like an 1/8 and also get more. More surface area = more hydrogen