Anyone been on a dyno?

Post by **apex_7** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

kevy8up wrote:nope he has a FMIC....weird

perfect compression & a newer stock turbo (the one on my clip was blown). BEFORE tuning, I only made like 173hp and 160tq and It was running rich as hell. anything past 4000rpms was a 10:1 a/f ratio or lower... but the chart didn't go any lower. anyway, I can't find the most recent one, but I think this one was my first try at correcting the hella-rich fuel problem. So, here's my sheet...

Post by **HybridOne** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

203 to the wheels ain't so bad. Just remember that it's to the wheels, so the hp to the crank will be a specific percentage higher. I don't know what driveline losses are in 240s.

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

THAT IS BAD BECAUSE THERE ARE RB20 WITH ABOUT 200-210 TO THE WHEELS STOCK. HIS PROBLEMS WERE THE HEAK SOAKED IC AND A REALLY RICH A/F CONDITION. THE CAR CAN MAKE MORE POWER WITH ALITTLE MORE WORK, IT JUST SEEMS THAT SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT.

Post by **rbsileighty** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

"103 degree weather"

This is probably a huge factor. I bet he could be hitting 210ish at the wheels no problem if the temp was in the 70's. Make sure if the temp drops you correct your mbc... especially on the stock turbo @14psi.

If stock is 214ps i'd be surprised it'd be putting 210 at the wheels. I am pretty sure the manual rearwheel drivetrain loss is around 15% which would put it around 180 @ the wheels. Most guys i've read about are putting out 170's kw with a some good mods, which is about in the 220hp range. Not sure if temp could make that much of a difference, but it is not out of the question.

OK... did a little more research and found this rb20 guy on a dyno day post:

"Was great to see everyone again. 155.5 rwkw running stock turbo at 13.5psi am very happy with that :-)"

That equates to about 207hp.

Post by **PROJECTRB240SX** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

THE POWER RATING OF THESE ENGINES WERE CONSERVATIVE, THEY AREN'T THOSE ACTUAL NUMBERS THEY ARE HIGHER.

Website · Post by **nolaws4evr** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

i had no idea that the rbs dynoed so low in somwhat stock form. i was always under the impression that the rb25 was a no lie 24-50hp at the wheel, and the 26 was rated at 280hp but actually was a little higher. man i was waaaaaaaaaayyyyy off, it makes me reconsider not just building my ka. ultimately im looking for a solid 400hp to the wheels on 93octane, which I know the rb is more than capable of, but the price to get to that number may be lower if I used the KA. how do you guys feel about all of this?? is the RB still worth it in the end, I mean i know its got the cool factor down plus more torque, but the 25 is like 6 grand running in my car and Im only putting down 200hp at best??? it hardly seems worth the money to me anymore.

Website · Post by **s13sr20chris** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

400hp at the rear wheels is going to be one serious task for a ka in my opinion. i have never even tried so you may not even want to listen to me. i will however say that i am no fan of the ka cylinder head. you could send it out to dan paramore and spend close to 2g for the top of the line port, polish, cc, match, and pentroof chamber. then you would have to balance the bottom end to make it somewhat stable, because i think you will need to get 7k rpms for 400whp most likely. off the shelf valvetrain should be easy enough for 7k. what turbo to use? i have no idea.

Post by **Nathan** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

400 is not unheard of at all with a KA...usually they are built at that level but still, I know of one making over 550hp on a totally stock head. Although I do agree, it could do with some cleaning up, especially on the exhaust side. Of course, 400 is not unheard of on an RB25 either, I consider them pretty evenly matched motors with the nod going to the RB for revability but to the KA for ease of parts and stuff.

Post by **HybridOne** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

you wouldn't have to change RB internals to get to 400 to the wheels. The KA would have to be worked all to hell on the bottom end so it wouldn't burn up. AND the RB is a motor designed for a turbo. The KA was designed for low end power to push a truck around. They are two TOTALLY different motors. Though....i suppose if you already have the KA in your car, and you want to spend 2500$ on building the internals, then you would be where the RB is (MAYBE), but you still wouldn't have a turbo.

It's just my policy not to put turbos on motors that don't have them, and never came with them.

Sorry if we are hijacking this thread

Post by **Projex240** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

The ka acutally has a VERY good design from the factory. There is actually a lot of skill that comes along with building a KA head. The KA is REALLY hard to pull 400 hp out of on pump gas. Its not hard to do with about 330-360. BUt once you get to the 360 area, then detonation becomes a real problem. Tje fact that the KA doesnt rev at high RPMS is not a downfall. I Rev my KA to 7200 rpms all day long, and dont get timid about it at all. I also have a stock bottom end. My bolt on turbo kt at 7.5 to 8 lbs of boost makes 252 rwhp. I am totally stock internally, and head-wise. If I had a ported and polished head, I could count on around a 30 HP gain. If the motor was built, I could make 450 Hp withenough fuel and tuning to run all day long. The KA is very STURDY block. From hat Ive seen, I dont know if I am contemplating doing an rb swap anymore. Ive been quietly searching for about a month on these boards looking for something to convince me its worth the headache...and so far, nothing has. For the money of swapping an RB, I could build a ka balls to the wall, and modded to the max, tuned and all. Making around 400-450. Rb's are not the way to go if you want reliable and easy power. If you want to build a high horsepower machine, then go rb, but plan on spending lots of dough, and invest in some tylenol...cuz itll be lots of no fun.

Post by **Projex240** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

oh yeah,,,,and I smoked an sr with 35 more horsepower(dyno-proven) on the highway 3 times in a row. Me at 9 lbs, and him at 14 on a t3/t04e. Cant beat the torque.

Post by **JonPowell** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

What is not reliable about the RB engines???

Tell me from experience because mine starts and runs like a top.

Post by **d240t2** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

What's not reliable about turbo KA engines? Because mine starts and runs like a top.

Post by **JonPowell** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

Some people seem to be experts without ANY experience.

Website · Post by **nolaws4evr** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

I still have time to search around and figure out what I want to go with since I dont have near enough cash yet for either projects. I know that an inline 6 has hella torque too, but that isnt really the issue for me. Im more concerned with streetable, everyday driven, 93 oct burning, running 400hp at the wheels untill the motor dies at hopefully over 200k miles. maybe even more power if/when I get boost hungry and have a fat wallet, but that will be awhile. I know people dont have a problem getting to 350atw on a turbo KA, some on even mostly stock internals. theres just too much to think about at this point. for now Im replacing the stock suspension and all the bushings so I can actually feel the car. lots of power will come later, wise decision IMO.

Josh

Post by **Projex240** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

Dont get me wrong. I did mean unreliable. What I meant was that its MUCH more hassle to pull 300 hp out of your *** ofn an rb...not to mention MUCH more expensive, than you can on a properly tuned KA. And, its not about starting up and running like a top with this particular conversation. Its about what is the best route to make power. If id have to spend 3500 roughly to get an RB in my car ( done right...none of that rigged up ****), and then spend more dogh...alot more...to get my car at 300-350. Id rather build a ka from top to bottom, have it completely tuned, and enough room to breathe out 450 to the wheels. Who cares if it doesnt rev to 8000, it doesnt need to...and extra 800 rpms aint gonna help that much anyway. But back to the original statement of whther the ka was built well or not. The KA is built very well. It looks to me like the car was supposed to be turbocharged in the beggining stages of its development, and then was changed to all motor to appease bean counters. Hell, the SR isnt even made by nissan...the KA is. I dont know about the RB. I think its designed by nissan, but built by another motor building contractor. The CA is designed and built by nissan...as is the VG, but those are totally different monsters. Point it.....dyno for dyno, and dollar for dollar...a ka wont just run like a top...itll run like a turbocharged top on crack----Im a firm believer in KA power. Hell, even Mckinney motorsports claimed they only made 350ish with all the mods they had done to their project car. While it was really pretty, and really nicely put together, that damn car cost too much money for the average joe to invest only to pull 350-ish....know what I mean?Not to mention that as far as motor mounts go, there are more opinions than I can understand. Unstable, Mckinney, Night7, Some other custom shop, etc.. etc... and all of em say that they are right. BTW...hey dennis....how come you guys wont answer the phone, man? Ive called and left like 10 messages! Are you guys even in the shop anymore?

Later,

Josh

Post by **IvoryJ30t** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

ok, how do you figure its easier to pull 300 hp out of a ka than a rb that comes turbo?

nevermind the fact that the rb motor pumping 300 hp is basically laughing at you asking "thats all you got?!?!..."

Post by **Projex240** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

and about you starting and running like a top....id say that was more the exception than the rule...seeing as how more people complain of problems when doing a sewap than those who dont.Plus...have you ever messed with a turbocharged KA? Ever built one? I have...about 4 of em. Ive tuned and worked on sr's, VG's, AND rb's...only one rb25..and two rb20's. Both were very cool due to the inline6 sexiness, but both had some serious issues that were no fun working out. Plus....and this is only a matter of opinion...so please dont be offended...i think they look like *** under the hood without the greddy IM. That over the valve cover crap looks terrible, and the fact that it takes like forever to remove and replace spark plugs cuz of it would really be a deterant. Hell, ive changed spark plugs 7 times on one car in one day...if I had and rb at the time....i would have thrown a match in that sucker.

But like I said...this is all about opinion...whatever gets YOUR motor runnin, if ya know what I mean

Later,

Josh

Post by **IvoryJ30t** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

if you go through seven sets of plugs in one day, you have biggger problems that arent really the fault of the rb series in general.

Post by **Projex240** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

Well, after seeing the dynos on this page.....id have to say its MUCH easier. Ask dennis...he installs RB at unstable...hes got a 350 rwhp KA on stock internals. Its not hard to do...most folks are just timid about pushing it that far. About coming turbo.....that doesnt make a damn bit of sense. So what? Hondas dont come turbo, but ive seen hondas that have blistered *** on some seriously tuned and FAST *** cars. One being a BPU supra running 11.80's in the qaruter...and they ran on the street.

Post by **Projex240** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

I meant changing them out and gapping them and changing and gapping to find the right gap....serious tuners do that to get the best response and HP...We did it on a dyno to see what effects we could find. And the RB comes turbo....not the 240sx. SO AS far as difficulty goes...Id rather modify a motor that was already in the car, than swap one in that was NEVER designed for the Chassis...but one more time...thats ONLY a mtter of opinion.

Post by **IvoryJ30t** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

wow, what a pointless arguement.

a simple "i like ka's" would have been sufficient.

Post by **IvoryJ30t** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

because its just that, an opinion. someone's going to have a different personal opinion, and your going to argue forever about who likes what more...

and in the end, your going to continue your stance, and he his.

voila, no advancement.

Post by **Projex240** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

I wasnt argueing at all. I just started out by making a simple point that was : the KS IS a well built platform. SInce I said that...I had to have something to back up my statement. It wasnt ever an arguement. Im not a internet forum/chatroom warrior. Just felt like nudgin the old competative spirit a lil bit. An opionion is great...but only when formed by good info. When someone has the opinion that KA's arent well built, then thats a negative opinion....i just wanted to shed a little light on the sunject to help him form a more educated opinion. NO harm intended. Seems as though there was plenty of advancement to me. I got SOME peoples attention, and they heard what I had to say. Exactly what i set out to do...my whole point of posting on the board. If I didnt want to get someones attention about MY opinion...then I would have just out and drove around...ate ice cream, played huitar..etc, etc....Get my Dorifuto?Never know, though....maybe i enlightened someone, and know they have an easier time making their decision of what platform to go with. Why would care what opinion i expressed----It shouldnt even matter to you....youve already had your mind made up, right?

Website · Post by **nolaws4evr** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

wow guys, I think yall need to chill out a little. projex240, I already knew alot of the stuff you brought up, but some was new to me. thank you guys very much for tryin to be helpfull and not tryin to change my mind. I already have some peices for the ka like timing chain kit and gaskets and stuff that make me want to go kat, but again like you said, that inline six is pure sexiness. like I said, its still up in the air but my mind changes bakc and forth every other day. I think the ka might be a better choice for a couple reasons tho, everyone can work on them, parts are cheap, more and more documented info about the kat is put out there everyday. I could go on for awhile, but like I said, all your opinions are greatly appreciated.

Josh

Post by **IvoryJ30t** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

well, considering i wouldnt drop a v6 for an i4, then yes, my mind is already made up.

i wasnt discounting your opinion or your right to express it, i was just stating that its not likely your going to change the mind of someone who has alredy solidified their own opinion. its just gonna be a pissing match. but theres nothing wrong with that either...

Post by **gabossie** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

Both engines have plenty of potential, no arguing that. Of course, the RB has more high power potential in the end, but not that many people push it that far. The big thing that is pushing me to the RB, is that my KA is old and starting to die. If I was to turbo it, it would need to be rebuilt and have a ton of parts changed out. This would make a KA project a large amount more expensive, especially since I have a hookup on the RB.

Post by **Projex240** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

Yeah. There would be a few thing to change out to make a high horsepower KA. But theres not as many as you think, though. The only thing you would HAVE to change are the pistons. Thats all. Alot of folks use a forged rods for peace of mind, but its not totally necessary. The stock rods are forged/shotpeened form the factory, and have proven to hold as much power as can be made on a ka motor(around 450+). When considering that pistons can be found for around 410...and rebuilding the motor is aroun 800-1000 even at a good shop, the cost value is well worth it. As far as how much to invest in a turbo kit...well thats a mtter of opinion. I put my most recent kit together for 1600. Thats not including the JWT ecu i already had. But my turbi kit is pretty bad-***, and can support all the hp I want. If your KA is getting tired, then you definately have the decision infront of you..it aint gonna be an easy one. While I have worked on RB's, and have seen what SOME folks have put into em....I have never put my own money into one. I researched for a while, actually coming close a few times to buying one. The clean ones that come from reputable sources are around 2500-3500. I have heard the wiring is a giotch(giant biotch), and the other costs associated with buying necessary parts can build up pretty quickly. I was goin to do mine right the first time, and order the parts from mckinney motorsports. The drive=shatf and mounts, and greddy IM, and FMIC. It would have been nice. But it was goign to cost me an armload. From what I have learned, the RB25 maxes out the fuel system with around 350 hp. That info could be wrong...cuz it came from someone on here who probably never even has seen an rb25. But if its true, then you have to turn around and spend more dough on injectors, and a way to tune them(afc, vpc, etc...power fc is a good way to go)...I dont know. Bang for your buck-it looks like the ka. If moneys no object....I would go Rb25---even 26.

mmmmm--inline 6.....droOlInG-dead sexy

Post by **undertaker** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

:sleep back to dyno results for a bit :rolleyes

my RB20DET Laurel put out about 210rwhp with a 3" exhaust and K&N panel filter running 10psi, dyno sheet here:http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/351709/2

i have seen a few mildly modified RB25DET's on the dyno, over here they seem to get 170-200rwkw with exhaust, filter and a bit of boost.

Website · Post by **s13sr20chris** » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

Projex240 wrote: Hell, the SR isnt even made by nissan...the KA is.

say what? are you nuts? please explain that one.

Anyone been on a dyno?

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