Alleged Ft. Hood shooter’s name ‘tells us a lot’

[szh]

Imam's who have been spreading hate in the US for years are calling for more of it.....ain't life grand?

As far as I am concerned, anybody - Imam or otherwise - who says that this act should be repeated, is morally wrong and his words and actions should be condemned by all sane human beings.

Z

[audtatious]

As far as I am concerned, anybody - Imam or otherwise - who says that this act should be repeated, is morally wrong and his words and actions should be condemned by all sane human beings.

Z

Let the beatings begin

Calling for the death of anyone is wrong and should result in a beat down. Well, except for murders, rapists, child molesters and such

[szh]

Yes, but in recent history, the term has been associated and in some ways hijacked (pun intended) by terrorists.

Unfortunately, true.

To proclaim this term right before shooting up a hospital does cast a shadow of suspicion that your motives may be religious or terrorlst in nature.

Perhaps, but not necessarily and I doubt it is the case here (not that I know, of course). The phrase is also used during prayer and is simply an acknowledgment of God being the supreme deity. It is a common phrase ... just like saying "Praise the Lord".

If Hasan was personally religious, he may have been using the phrase as a way to get his nerves set before doing what he did. Still does not justify his actions in the slightest.

Z

[AZhitman]

DailyKos poll on this situation has this as an option: "#3 "He was trying to save these troops from the horrors of war that he heard about from returning troops""

Are they serious?

He hadn't even started working yet! We've been paying for this terrorlst to go to school!!!

Ugh. What a punch of pacifist, apologist pansies.

[szh]

If a pro-lifer shoots an abortion doc, it's generally considered to be an act based on that person's spiritual beliefs.

Let's be clear here: This guy, had he been a Christian, and proclaimed, "In the name of Jesus, you are all gonna die!", we'd have never heard the end of it.

Let's call this what it is: Terrorism. Plain and simple.

This clown had never seen combat. He had a cushy gig. He hadn't ever been deployed. He hadn't EVER supervised others (despite having the RANK and PAY of a superior officer)... He got to go to school, wear civilian clothes, and had nice comfy quarters... He got saluted.

He is a terrorlst, a turncoat, a traitor, and is deserving of the needle.

I'd place him in the same bucket with McVeigh, EXCEPT that McVeigh didn't take an oath to serve his country and then violate that oath.

The comment from the news anchor was insensitive, agreed.

As if our troops didn't have enough to worry about, now they have to be concerned that one of their brothers may be a treasonous piece of rat droppings.

I feel for the millions of good, law-abiding Muslims in our country who must now contend with even more misunderstanding. And it's to be expected. I'm hoping that followers of Islam worldwide will speak out against this tragedy and work collaboratively with non-Muslims to condemn such actions.

Now these are all statements that I pretty much agree with!

With just a few quibbles: the term "terrorism" (and "terrorlst" - one who does the terrorism) has been used more commonly for actions that are done by organized and semi-organized groups with a specific axe to grind.

Yes, I don't know the facts, but it is far more likely that Hasan had no such affiliation. IMHO, he is simply a terrible serial murderer. Even though I can see your point that, as a soldier, his actions were more unacceptable than otherwise.

However, labeling him a terrorlst overemphasizes his actions in a way that may make some idiots find them to be "justified" ... but we don't really need him to become a martyr.

Regardless of which, I find satisfaction in the fact that Texas still has the death penalty available as a punishment recourse.

Z

[AZhitman]

The phrase is also used during prayer and is simply an acknowledgment of God being the supreme deity. It is a common phrase ... just like saying "Praise the Lord".

If Hasan was personally religious, he may have been using the phrase as a way to get his nerves set before doing what he did. Still does not justify his actions in the slightest.

Z

That crossed my mind.

He needs to leave his God (IMO our God) out of his lunacy then.

BTW, I just realized something - He gets to choose, if I am remembering correctly, between execution by firing squad or hanging (military execution).

I hope someone is in his hospital room describing, in graphic detail, his choices.

[heliochrome85]

sorry for not posting, i jsut had three exams today, which basically left me for dead. then pissed on my broken body.

i will collect my thoughts and respond soon.

on a side note, i want to thank who ever interceded and ask Rob Paulson to remove that hateful post that i had emailed to my comptuer as an update this morning.

as arnold made famous"Ill be back"

[AZhitman]

Just do your damn homework.

Glad you made it through, brother.

[Cold_Zero]

T-Handle your business first. This discussion(thread) will always be here.

[RobPaulson]

No one asked me to remove it.

What is so hateful about quoting the q'aran?

[heliochrome85]

there is nothing wrong with quoting the Quran. However, the way you did it, and the quotes you used, are hardly representative of the actual text or the religion. In doing so, you not only poision the nature of the discussion, but you do intellectual harm to those who come across this thread and find it to only strengthen the anti-Muslim sentiment, esp at this time.

[heliochrome85]

The reason why I was bothered enough to post this thread, was that apparently at the time, his name was enough to damn him in the eyes of Mr. Smith on Fox News. While i wont discount any of the evidence that has since come out, AT the time that that video was posted, nothing was known. His history, his mental state, his political motivations, all were unknown. THey have since come out to support the possibility that this was terrorism, but at the time, it was simply just an assumption that this guy was a militant muslim terrorlst, solely based on his name and his crimes. Rather than discussing maybe, that he was deranged, or that maybe he had a schizophrenic break due to stress, Fox News saw fit to just jump to conclusions and damn him, his ethnicity, and his religion.

If we took every crime that was on national news and said, white CHRISTIAN man rapes 5 year old... im pretty sure people would be upset.

I'm glad that Z has been able to effectively and accurately articulate my frustrations.

Back to pharmacology...

[Cold_Zero]

But yet T, the media already does this to Pro Lifers. When a man storms into a Lutheran church and assassinates a doctor that provides abortions, the media does not waste any time speculating/linking the shooter with the pro-life movement and mixing religion and politics. It is the cross that we bear for being Muslims or pro-lifers.

No offense T and we have talked about this before, but I never can really understand the apparent lack of focus and lack of outrage in the Muslim community (especially in the United States) when things like this happen. Instead of focusing on the fact that this guy is a s*** head, trying to hijack your religion and make it something out to be something that it is not. No you are far more worried about this will affect you (as a Muslim) being perceived in society/media and how you are the victim in all this. I still go back to when US forces apprehended Saddam Hussein and there was out cry from the Muslim world over how a Muslim man (Saddam) was presented to the media in an unflattering manner. Instead of focusing on a man that gassed, executed and tortured the innocent people (men, women and children) of his own country and how he allowed his sons rape women and torture men for their own pleasure. The focus was instead on his presentation (in an unflattering manner) to the media because Saddam was a prominent Muslim leader of powerful Muslim country. Because the Muslim world was fixated on the way he was unflatteringly (disrespectfully) presented to the media, they appeared to make excuses for a monster. If I understand the core tenants of Islam, justice is key tenant in the religion. So where then was the outrage from the Muslim world on his injustice to his people? I guess I will never really understand this lack of focus. When a s*** head tries to hijack the Christian religion you best believe that I and others like me are out there condemning the actions of these people but yet trying to teach people the real message of our religion. I point out my friend Chris. When the Westboro Baptist church came out to protest North Central High School in Indianapolis IN, he did not go down there to protest the protesters of the Westboro Baptist church, because their agenda (sympathetic to LBGs). No Chris went down to convert the Westboro Baptist members out of their cult and into orthodox Christianity.

I have never taken secret pride in the evil actions of Christians towards unbelievers or groups that I disagree with socially/politically.

Looking at the pictures of the big fat bloated dead bodies of Saddam's sons and seeing the videos of Saddam's executioners taunt him (hopefully with Shiite chants) before his death, I take solace that these monsters were served temporal justice. Not because they were Muslims, but because they were monsters and justice was served by the State.

[UpStar]

There are many definition of the word terrorlst and non which I think fit the mold for this individual. Keep in mind that he did serve in our military for years and that would be a slap in the face to our military if they declare him to be a full blown terrorlst. Also, terrorlst work in groups and this guy was working alone so based on the full definition of the word terrorlst, it doesn’t fit. Some out there would absolutely love to see this be declared as an act of terrorism. It would bring music to the ears of some of you (you know who you are) to hear that a "terrorlst" struck on US soil while Barak Obama was in office. The same people jumping up and down with joy when Chicago lost the bid for the Olympics are the same people asking that this be called terrorism. I know I'm right about that! !!

I would classify this as work place violence and nothing else. There will be hell to pay for this guy, especially in the state of Texas and it being on a military base. If we can get the people to focus on the actual crime that was committed and not the issues of his "NAME" and his religious beliefs things will be handled in the correct manner. This is going to be a very long process so, lets hope that FOX news doesn't create enough propaganda to delay the process even longer, and continue to pray for the families of the lost.

Thank You.
Modified by UpStar at 11:30 AM 11/10/2009

[AZhitman]

Keep in mind that he did serve in our military for years and that would be a slap in the face to our military if they declare him to be a full blown terrorlst.

How's that?

When an isolated soldier commits a crime (for example, rapes someone), and we call him a rapist, is that a "slap in the face to our military"?

Nope.

He went to school. He didn't do much else. He had a cushy gig. He was afforded the rank of a superior officer, despite the fact that he NEVER held a position of authority. Never supervised others. Never held a position of resonsibility.

He's a coward, a traitor, a turncoat, a terrorlst, and a disgrace to our military, his faith, and humanity.

Period.

Also, terrorlst work in groups and this guy was working alone so based on the full definition of the word terrorlst, it doesn’t fit.

Nope. Wrong.

Was McVeigh a terrorlst? Yep.

Kaczynski? Yep.

You're not comprehending the definition of the word. It absolutely fits.

Some out there would absolutely love to see this be declared as an act of terrorism. It would bring music to the ears of some of you (you know who you are) to hear that a "terrorlst" struck on US soil while Barak Obama was in office. The same people jumping up and down with joy when Chicago lost the bid for the Olympics are the same people asking that this be called terrorism. I know I'm right about that! !!

In your twisted worldview, I'm sure you THINK you are.

You'd be wrong.

I'm offended that you think I'd put criticism of the POTUS above the lives of the brave servicemen he senselesly cut short. You, sir, are confused.

I would classify this as work place violence and nothing else. There will be hell to pay for this guy, especially in the state of Texas and it being on a military base. If we can get the people to focus on the actual crime that was committed and not the issues of his "NAME" and his religious beliefs things will be handled in the correct manner. This is going to be a very long process so, lets hope that FOX news doesn't create enough propaganda to delay the process even longer

Again, where is the concern for the victims? Why are we so concerned about this guy? What has he contributed to relations between the western world and our Islamic brothers?

Not a damn thing.

HE is to blame for the bad feelings. HE is the cause of the rift. HE is responsible to his fellow Muslims (a good and honorable people) for sullying their image. No one else.

Don't blame this on Fox news, conservatives, people who oppose the current administration's policies, or anyone else.

It's not propaganda.

If we KNOW (and we do) that Islamic terrorists are actively seeking to infiltrate our military (and they are) in order to acquire training to use against the US (and they have), while collecting a paycheck from MY tax dollars (which they would), it's NOT propaganda.

It's outrage. There's a difference.

Lastly, TX has nothing to do with it. It's a military crime. He's subject to the UCMJ, not Texas State Law.

Education is power. Getcha some.

p.s. Fix your signature. Badge, dessert and Mustang are misspelled.

[DrifterXRPS13]

bud, i guess i'll try and answer part of your question, at least as i see it in my muslim community. We don't speak out on things, 1. for fear of being labeled (one way or another) with all the scrutiny that is placed on us as being muslims and 2. the older generation, i.e my parents and their elders are still so backwards and still think of the ways of the old country to try and even talk to them on the matter is like to talking to a brick wall.

I love my parents to death but you would not be able to sway them from their thinking even when you know they are wrong and i believe that is part of the problem. The young generation (myself included) here in the u.s. and other countries of the like understand things better and what is going on.

For example, when saddams kids were killed and saddam himself was executed, my parents felt bad for him even knowing all the crimes he committed but because he was a muslim leader in a muslim country they kind of overlooked that.

Muslims, and jews, i will say, as far as i've seen are loyal to the religion to a fault. Sure christians follow the religion too but from what i've seen you can still talk reasonably with christians about matters and opinions, and even have them see things your way but muslims and jews, there is no changing their minds, well, at least the older generation. They so believe in their religion 100% that they'll overlook things, no matter how terrible.

I'm a muslim but i'm not blind to what's going on in the world...i was born into the religion, followed it perfectly until my high school years and kind of got away from it especially since 9/11 happened my junior year....and now just recently in the past couple years am getting back into it...still not there yet but getting closer.

Sorry, not trying to make this into a religion topic, but trying to answer that question to the best of my ability as i see it.

[AZhitman]

Crap. I thought you were Mexican.

(just kidding....)

All joking aside, your experience is not unique. All of us have parents or grandparents who believe differently and say / do things that we find abhorrent... I have a racist relative who says stupid things quite often. He's old. Whatcha gonna do?

You don't walk away from your faith, because your faith is not the issue. It's the ignorant and weak who hijack that religion for their own purposes. Each faith has their whackos.

Speak out against these nut jobs. Screw those who would "label" you... I'll stand right next to you and throw blows with anyone who takes issue with it.

The world needs more rational believers, and believers who refuse to cower when others hijack their faith.... You, Tariq and Z are the only insight many of us have into your faith... just as I may be the only example you may have of mine.

[AZhitman]

By the way, check this out:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/....html

Not only did this clown hijack a training to spout his personal viewpoint (a training taxpayers PAID for), but he also supposedly has been looking to get out of the military since 2001.

Eight years? Seriously?

Here's a clue, moron: WALK THE F*** AWAY.

In eight years, he couldn't have gotten discharged? Really? Whatever.

That just makes his crimes all the worse.

[DrifterXRPS13]

i'm cuban b! hahaaa

yea, i hear ya, there are people who take any religion and use it for their own purposes.

You enlist in the military knowing full well the oath you took to protect this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. Just because the country is at war with these terrorlst and in the part of the world where your own people are doesn't give you the right to shoot up the place killing your fellow americans and soldiers.

my brother served 4 years in the marines and he loved it. he knew going in there was a possibility that if something happened he might have to be shipped away into battle against his muslim brothers, and he made peace with it but this guy didn't get the memo.

i'm pretty sure it's easy to get out of the military if you really wanted, just make a pass at your commanding officer. haha.

oh and the possum thanks you for the back up

[AZhitman]

Just because the country is at war with these terrorlst and in the part of the world where your own people are doesn't give you the right to shoot up the place killing your fellow americans and soldiers.

Exactly.

A soldier doesn't check with an enemy combatant to see if their faith corresponds with his own before pulling the trigger. That's absurd.

How many Christian / Jewish / Muslim / Buddhist / Atheist US soldiers have killed another Christian / Jew / Muslim / Buddhist / Atheist?

Every defense he can come up with is pathetic.

He'd better get really mentally ill, really quick. The firing squad don't miss.

[Cold_Zero]

F-Thank you for your insight. I am a reasonable person and enjoy trying to understand different cultures. It appears that maybe I am experiencing the same frustration that younger people in your community are experiencing?

[audtatious]

We now know whom/what to blame, per Chicago Mayor Daley: “Unfortunately, America loves Guns. We love guns to a point where that uh we see devastation on a daily basis. You don’t blame a group.”

[UpStar]

You are correct……about my spelling. Glad to see that someone here is smarter than a 5th grader. I still stand behind what I said in my earlier post.

[AZhitman]

We now know whom/what to blame, per Chicago Mayor Daley: “Unfortunately, America loves Guns. We love guns to a point where that uh we see devastation on a daily basis. You don’t blame a group.”

I tossed Daley on the boat with Jesse, Al and Louis a long time ago.

Does he not comprehend that the military is ISSUED guns?

(...yes, I know the shooter used civilian firearms... but what a moronic statement...)

[Cold_Zero]

I must retract citation (earlier) it was General Casey (Chief of Staff of the United States Army) that said it would be more of a tragedy if the US Army lost its diversity than the Fort Hood Shooting.

[RobPaulson]

For example, when saddams kids were killed and saddam himself was executed, my parents felt bad for him even knowing all the crimes he committed but because he was a muslim leader in a muslim country they kind of overlooked that.

but why would you want to be involved in a belief that condoned this behavior? doesnt the fact that your parents somewhat overlooked the evil in this man, simply because he was a muslim leader disgust you as a human being? i say human being because at this point, screw beliefs religions and other petty labels, as people, humans, they should have been appalled and disgusted by this mans actions.

the argument of 'well, its not what I believe, they are extreme/oldschool/whatever' well... if they are extreme or oldschool, it means they are epitomizing the belief, taking it to its most extreme, literal, and strict state. so the belief at its core is just completely skewed to me and its incomprehensible to me how such kind people, like yourselves, would stand to be associated with those core beliefs.

If this is not the place for this, I understand. I am not trying to start a fight or insult anyone, I am trying to understand this.

[WDRacing]

There is no understanding dude. You can't debate with irrational people. By irrational, I mean anyone that refuses to call someone a terrorlst or acknolwedge a person is an absolute monster and should be put down like a rabid animal, simply because it tarnishes their insert any personal belief here.

I'm tired Muslim being off limits. Why should it be? I should be able to "call it like I see it" without being called a racist or Anti-Muslim. I'm not calling Z or any other good natured Muslims a terrorlst, nor am I saying those beliefs spawn terrorism. But if a Muslim attacks ANYONE I certainly shouldn't feel obligated not to mention his religion, especially if the person accused is spouting off about the damn religion himself.

If it ruffles the worlds feathers and the Muslim community comes under attack...to damn bad. Step up and do something about it. Condemn all extremism vocally and globally. Join the fight to rid the world of violent extremism. Especially if it is negatively affecting your entire family and way of living.

I don't mean to single out Muslims, I apply this train of thought to all religions and cults. All extremism is bad in my opinion. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna sensor myself because someones feelings are gonna be a little hurt. I didn't choose to kill a bunch of people...

Free means free. Free doesn't mean becareful not to accurately describe someone that just murdered/stole/commited a heinous act against your family for fear of unrest.

WD

[DrifterXRPS13]

but why would you want to be involved in a belief that condoned this behavior? doesnt the fact that your parents somewhat overlooked the evil in this man, simply because he was a muslim leader disgust you as a human being? i say human being because at this point, screw beliefs religions and other petty labels, as people, humans, they should have been appalled and disgusted by this mans actions.

I am involved in a belief that i believe in, not in what some people choose to take certain parts of our belief and take them to the extreme. you say human beings but don't just take it in this context then, human beings have been killing each other for thousands of years for any number of reasons, certain things disgust certain people while on others it may have no affect. to reiterate the sorry feelings that my parents felt was that outsiders came into his country and killed his children and then eventually executed him. it may not be right but people feel the way they feel.

the argument of 'well, its not what I believe, they are extreme/oldschool/whatever' well... if they are extreme or oldschool, it means they are epitomizing the belief, taking it to its most extreme, literal, and strict state. so the belief at its core is just completely skewed to me and its incomprehensible to me how such kind people, like yourselves, would stand to be associated with those core beliefs.

You can insert any religion you want into way of thinking and you'll find extremist up and down them all. It's the way you view it and take what you will of it. Not every muslim is a terrorlst, not every christian abuses little boys, not is every jew is cheap and rules the world, well maybe the last one is true, lol but it seems to me you are labeling us all into that category.

If this is not the place for this, I understand. I am not trying to start a fight or insult anyone, I am trying to understand this.

no insults taken, if you are trying to understand, i hope i can do all i can so hopefully you can see that this is just a minority group of people who have taken my religion and made it seem evil to the rest of the world.

[RobPaulson]

how can you defend the statements from the q'uran that explain the necessity for the control of financial systems, government, and social discrimination based on sex, race, and belief?

these things are unique to Islam. Islamic nations IMPLEMENT these ideals RIGHT NOW. how can you associate with this in good conscience? I am speaking of Sharia here.

Even disregarding the moral implications of these beliefs, how could any american citizen condone the merging of church and state? Calling something 'law' in the name of god?

I am a very open minded person, but when a belief, in its most complete form, wants to tax me because I am a non-believer, condones the abuse of women, and considers me a lesser person because of my beliefs, I have a problem with it.

[szh]

how can you defend the statements from the q'uran that explain the necessity for the control of financial systems, government, and social discrimination based on sex, race, and belief?

these things are unique to Islam. Islamic nations IMPLEMENT these ideals RIGHT NOW. how can you associate with this in good conscience? I am speaking of Sharia here.

Even disregarding the moral implications of these beliefs, how could any american citizen condone the merging of church and state? Calling something 'law' in the name of god?

I am a very open minded person, but when a belief, in its most complete form, wants to tax me because I am a non-believer, condones the abuse of women, and considers me a lesser person because of my beliefs, I have a problem with it.

The problem is that you are not talking about things that you know anything about. Quoting a few verses from any ancient book does not make you an expert clearly. I could just as easily find out of context text in the Bible and Torah and "name your religious text" and make an arbitrary case for things that you and I might find objectionable today.

Second, we are starting to deviate into a discussion on religion and that is not what I think we should get into here.

Think of it this way: Islam does not discriminate inherently in this manner ... unfortunately, some people want to interpret it that way. Your comments should be directed to the people who do that rather than the religion.

Now ... let's get off the religious topic, okay?

Z