92 Mercedes 400e vs. 92 Infiniti Q45

[tkd_q45]

About 7 months ago I acquired a 92 400e Mercedes Benz. I thought I’d share my “findings” with the board in case any one else out there is considering getting into a W124 E class. I thought about buying another Q but I thought I’d try something different.

For those of you who aren’t familiar with the 400e it’s the E class Mercedes with a 4.2 liter V8 (The original E had an 3.0 liter, inline 6) that produces approximately 268 horsepower @5700rpm and 290 lb-ft of torque @3900 rpm. EPA 16-21MPG. Weighs approx. 3660 lb. They also upgraded the interior and sound system. MBZ started producing this car as a response to Infiniti and Lexus. I did a lot of research on this car and though it does have its share of mechanical quirks, all the 400e owners I spoke to love their cars as much as we all love out Qs.

400e – what’s better – what the Q lacks/is lesser than

High speed stability – the Q is good but the E is GREAT! Those of you that have driven a 400e/500e know what I mean.

Mid range power – At when accelerating from freeway speeds the 400e certainly has better pickup – feels like a rocket!

Interior materials – leather, wood and vinyl in the E seems/looks to be of higher quality, especially evident in Mercedes that have over 100K. Gorgeous real burl wood trim. I’ve seen some 200K+ MBZ with leather that is just beginning to show wear! The doors also feel as if they are more precisely fitted (hard to describe, much more of a feeling thing but very vault like).

Handling – the E is a smaller lighter more nimble car. Loves to be thrown in the twisties (I must note that I have 16” rims with 205/55 P6000 tires – this is NOT stock). Very “tossable”

Steering – for performance driving the E has better feel

Chassis – Incredibly stiff/solid. The Q is solid the E is REALLY solid.

Brakes – E’s brakes are superior both in feel and stopping power

More space efficient design – despite being a smaller car the trunk is as large – maybe a bit larger than the Q. Interior space is also well used. If the Q was this well optimized there would be quite a bit more room.

Easier to park! I live in West Hollywood and the West End of Los Angeles in general is a pain in the *** when it comes to parking. It’s a big reason why I opted to buy an E over a Q.

Engine note: E’s V8 sounds a bit more “mean”

Power controls for seats – The E has headrest controls for both driver AND passenger (I know later Q’s got a drivers side power headrest but I’m comparing 92 to 92. Also there is a greater range of movement in the power adjustments. The actual controllers on the doors are easier/more logical to use (it’s a shame Infinti had to give up the controllers that they had in the 90 – for those of you who don’t remember MBZ actually SUED Nissan to stop them from using their (MBZ’s) design.

Q45 – what’s better – what the E lacks/is lesser than

AC – Q’s AC is superior!!!!! The digital controls give instantaneous temperature change. The E’s controller takes what seems likes forever to change temps. AC fans on the Q are MUCH quieter. The controller also has a wider range of selections as to how to control air flow. The E’s controller only lets you control about HALF of the functions. The other functions are left up to the system to decide (damn MBZ control freaks!). Also the E’s are notorious for having he AC evaporators go out any where from 65-100K and it runs over $2000 to fix!!!!!!

Power tilt/telescoping steering wheel – the E does have power telescoping but no tilt. Further more there is no contraction of the wheel or seat to aid ingress/egress. Major disappointment!

Transmission – the Q’s transmission is WAY more responsive and shifts much more smoothly. The E’s transmission is harsh when cold and sooths out when warm. But it is never as smooth as the Q’s.

Styling – I do like the E but you see them everywhere (at least out here). I think the Q is better proportioned and has a greater look of elegance/striking profile. And I love those door handles!

Seats – Thought the E has more adjustability the seat cushions are too short (and I’m a short guy!). Overall I find the Q seats much more comfortable.

Interior features – Interior lighting is superior, the E’s interior is under-lit like a much cheaper car - no door lights, no foot well lights. No reading lamps for back passenger or front passenger (just one in the front center and I can’t even really call it a “reading lamp”). No interior trunk release button. Sunroof lacks one touch open feature. No cigarette lighters in the back passenger doors (I don’t smoke but I do like the attention to detail). Much nicer headliner (one of the things I LOVE in the Q), though the E’s is more kid proof – for you parents out there. Nicer instrumentation – Q’s backlit IP is much nicer to look at. Though I do have to counter that I grew up ridding in MBZ and the MBZ IP does have a certain nostalgic value for me.

Ergonomics – The E is definitely competent here, its just that the Q is better (with the exception of seat controls). Easier to reach the window switches (switch on door handle is superior to MBZs flat mounted switches.

NHV – the E is acceptably quiet but the Q definitely had it beat in this department.

If I were to do it over again, I might have gone with another Q. I sometimes toy with the idea of doing just that but right now I’m just not up to it/not fully decided. Don’t get me wrong; the 400e is a fine car and I enjoy driving it. Especially on Mulholland Drive!

[911/Q45]

Very balanced evaluation. I love the way Mercedes drives, but I can't live with the reliability. What has your experience been with reliability?

[tkd_q45]

I've only had the car 5.5 months so I think it's kind of premature to say. But I have had no breakdowns so far. My car does need a few "things"- New ignition rotors and caps - easy to do but expensive parts, looks like I'm going to need a new AC evaporator - that hurts! - can't afford to do this right now and my mechanics says there are some minor sensor type items I need replaced, I also need a new motor mount - it's more of an esthitic thing but this engine is so smooth, to me it's just not worth the money/time to do.

Most all the 400e owners I spoke to said that there cars have been very reliable. We shall see...

I wish Infiniti had made an E size Q - I would have bought that instead

[landtodd]

Mercedes aluminum blocks of the period were notorious for stripping threads when the heads had to be removed for any reason. Helicoil is the usual solution.

We had a wonderful '98 MB E430 Sport, but even relatively new, it still couldn't outrun my mostly-stock '92 Q with 167K on the clock. Below 100mph at least. (Contrary to popular opinion, I do most of my driving below 100.)

6 months' depreciation on the Benz cost us more than my total investment in the Q.

[greg_atlanta]

Pre-'97 E-class is definitely one of the better models from what I've heard. Of course resale value is A LOT higher than the Q, so you probably paid a lot more for it, but at least you'll get something for it when you get rid of it (or roll down a hill on Mulhalland drive). The design is timeless.

I know that Keith in Houston (texasoil) knows A LOT about MB in general. He checks this board now and then and can probably offer some advice.

What color? You should post some pics with E and Q side-by-side!

There steering wheel is a lot bigger, isn't it? I always thought that was neat. Like a cruise ship.

[tkd_q45]

LOL! Sounds like you are familiar with this road. Over the years many have gone over the edge. Since the advent of cell phones they can at least call for help!

I don't know why I hadn't though of photographing them side by side- Guess it's because my wife drives the Q and with my 2yr old daughter it's not a simple as it should be. There aren't really any close by places for decent photography. But I'll try. Please keep in mind that since my wife took over the Q it's gotten really dinged up!!!! I can't look anymore! Plus my daughter loves to do her damage in the back seat. My poor old Q is often full of trash! Anyhow to my wife's defense she does really love the car, just doesn't love taking care of it.

My 400e is dark metalic grey with black leather interior. I'll post some pics when I get home tonight.

W124 (pre 97-96?) I've been told by many MBZ enthusiasts, are of higher quality build than the W210 (later more rounded e). That again is a big reason why I bought this car. I read an article about a taxi company in Germany and the owner said his W124s outlast his W210s. W210 is a nice looking car and has more "refinement."

[juiceman]

Gee, a woman doesn't take care of a car like a man

My wife's minivan is her garbage can (she does not drive my j) I cleaned the carpets before a family vacation and I could not get the water to run clean even though it looked clean.

Guys have alot different attitude about their cars. Hey if we treated our wifes like our cars then there would be less divorce. Although a car rewards you when you you damage control.

Anyway just had to interject

Peace!

[VimyJ]

A favourite car memory of mine is driving Mulhulland Drive at tire squealing speeds in an RX7 with my Ice Capades skater girl friend beating on me to slow down. Ah the memories...

[infinitinut]

Sadly, Daimer Chrysler has had to cut costs somewhere (like ALL of the car makers!), and it shows in their products! My German in-law's 92 500 S Class ($112K US equivalent) was a car of impeccable solidity, that seemed, at least to me, to personify a true luxury road machine. Their new 01 500 S Class ($92K US) is way too cheaply assembled, with cheapish materials, contrary to the 92! Still a strong drivetrain, but it just never impressed me like the older S, just like the newer Qs never impressed me due to their decontenting! I would rather drive my 92 Q than the new S Class, or Q! And, in that we will head out to NM next week, another chance to enjoy the mile eating talents of the Q! (Flying is no fun, anymore, if not degrading! 2 recent trips out of the country had me wincing all the way!)

[tkd_q45]

I DO treat my wife WAY better than my car. We are far from devorce yet it has no impact on how she treats her car. She too just throws thing over her shoulder. The back seat foot wells are her trash cans! Some days I can't even see the floor! It gets GROSS! This is on top of the food my daughter throws about as well as her sippie cups - days sometimes weeks - old that really are starting to make the car reek! I love my wife, it's just nice to have an understanding audience!

Previous generation S Class (W140) is better built/higher quality than the new S Class (W220). I've read many post on this topic - same issues as W124 vs W210. MBZ lost a lot of money on the W140. It was the most expensive car they ever developed. The manager in charge of the project was fired! But the end result was a Rolex watch on wheels. Not quite my thing but I've driven and ridden in one and it's quite a piece of machinery. Extreemly "vault like" - it even has dual pane glass!!! Even in V6 form it moves more effortlessly than one would think. I'd still rather have a Q though.

[VimyJ]

I DO treat my wife WAY better than my car. We are far from devorce yet it has no impact on how she treats her car. She too just throws thing over her shoulder. The back seat foot wells are her trash cans! Some days I can't even see the floor! It gets GROSS! This is on top of the food my daughter throws about as well as her sippie cups - days sometimes weeks - old that really are starting to make the car reek! I love my wife, it's just nice to have an understanding audience!

That is grounds for divorce or annulment!:squint

[tkd_q45]

I'm not being entirely fair...

She did let my buy the 400e w/o batting an eye lash! - That's love!

Tell you the truth, I had been obsessively "looking" for a car for a long time. She ended up calling my bluff!

[911/Q45]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by VimyJ "]A favourite car memory of mine is driving Mulhulland Drive at tire squealing speeds in an RX7 with my Ice Capades skater girl friend beating on me to slow down. Ah the memories...

Driving fast on Mulholland while a girl with muscular thighs beats you-sounds about as good as it gets!

[Q451990]

No car can be as bad as my girlfriend's 93 Mercury Tracer... the center console has US currency that can't even be identified because it's so caked up with spilled diet coke. I once did an informal study on how long it takes for an unopened can of diet coke to swell up and break in the summer heat in SC and GA... looks like about 8 days. The people at Wal-mart don't even try to vacuum it out when she goes for oil changes (which she's only now motivated to do since she can get a manicure/pedicure while she waits.) I replaced her fuel filter a couple of weeks ago because she was having a hard start problem and the date stamp on it was 1995 - so it probably had about 110K on it. I cut it open and the filter media was black - looked like oil when you touched it.

She only drives the Q when I'm too drunk - and even then she's scared to death Her dream car is a G35, but I don't think I could bear to see it die such a horrible death! I think I'll get her a F*$% Focus - at least it would see the shop on a regular basis for recall visits!

Heath

[juiceman]

My wife destroyed a 93 Escort too before the minivan. She had so much soda and muffin in the center consol, the shift interlock mechanism fried and drained the battery. Suprisingly the dealer would not fix under warranty? What a surprise. She complained about a poor design where fluids were definately going to get spilled. When I took apart and cleaned I was amazed at the film all over everything. Cleaning this are became a ritual for me

But in defense of women I know men as bad as them too. My father-in-law had maggots in his car. Yuk! My best friend (a mechanical engineer also) could not even figure out how to change his oil so he never did it.

I guess everyone should take care and respect all of their family friends and possesions. It makes them all last longer. The american mentality of throw it away and replace has to change.

Peace!

[DAEDALUS]

My best friend (a mechanical engineer also) could not even figure out how to change his oil so he never did it.

I'm a mechanical engineer too and I am simply amazed at how many of my coworkers don't know the first thing about cars. A couple months ago I asked a buddy here how much oil his Audi took. He's said he didn't know. In complete disbelief I yelled at him, "YOU ARE NOT A MAN!". I fully understand that to a lot of people, DIY is not worth it to them, but I have no idea how anyone can have a MECHANICAL engineering degree yet have no interest at all in cars. At least there are a few gurus around my office who really know their stuff.

[Q45tech]

Choice of electives....thermodynamics is something they wanted to forget.

It amazes me that since an automobile associated expense is usually the second most reoccuring expensive item in many budgets - that most don't know anything about them.

Heck people spend $1200 a year on gasoline and don't under stand what it is or $6,000 on food and don't have a clue how it functions.

Where has being a scientist as a hobby gone!When will our alien forefathers return and save us?

[VimyJ]

Where has being a scientist as a hobby gone!When will our alien forefathers return and save us?

Good question. I was just talking to a friend of mine who attended a Bears game. He said that he would never go back because of all the rude and crass behavior. He called the crowd "threatening". A contributer could be that the Bears suck this season but I'm getting the feeling that a lot of people are forgetting how to behave/live in a civilized society.

We are riding on the coattails of our forefathers who established the great civilizations of N. America. These civilizations are not carved in stone and it really takes very little to upset them (e.g. the "snipers" that practically shut down the D.C. area for three weeks). There is a current of anti-intellectualism and anti-science that has been gaining momentum for a generation. How many people understand the tremendous feats of engineering that enable us to live in cities without polluting ourselves to death or the huge scientific discoveries that enable us to live past 30 before disease takes the majority of us that didn't succumb to 50% infant mortality rates? What has happened to the appreciation of the artist who has honed and perfected his art for decades but instead plays a distant second fiddle to Rappers scratching records, displaying booty and glorifying the gangsta nonproductive, nonintellectual life style?

The proof of our deteriorating society is voter turnout. In the US, less than 50% of eligible voters even bother to show up at the polls. The vast majority of school funding propostions get defeated thereby diminishing the educations of children that will be the standard bearers of our civilization in the future. Boys are practically discouraged to persue intellectual activites for fear of being branded "nerds". 60% of post secondary education enrollment is female. Not that there is anything wrong with that but where are the boys? They're not building go-carts or practicing the violin. They're practicing "sniping" on video games.

Maybe it's a natural cycle from which there is no escape. Civilizations rise and fall. China and India place more value on education and will work harder for less pay. They are going to steal our lunches while we perfect our video gaming skills and worship at the cultural shrine of pro wrestling.

Sorry for the rant.

[tkd_q45]

Good point. I too believe there seems to be an anti-intelectual/bad behavior trend in our society. But I think there is also a breakdown of boundaries that is contributin to all the bad behavior/Springer culture/attitude.

I observe that people of my parent's genration (I'm now 37) had a more restrictive culture around them. True people had a more clear sense of boundaries. This always makes people feel safe because everthing is clearly defined. But this also meant a lot of insitution racism and discrimination.

I think we may be feeling a swing of the pendulem. Many of the older generations grew up in a world of not ever telling others whats really going on – on the inside. I do see progress in people being able to really talk about emotinal issues. Before it was all swept under the rug and every one strived to keep up appearances.

I also think we are feeling the impact of families having to work harder to make ends meet. It's REALLY hard to be a single income family. I think that much of the rude/destructive behavior we see is a result of lack of parenting. My observation is that single income families are RARE (not counting single moms). Think about all the kids growing up in broken households. There are so many divorced couples that also have children.

Children learn such traits such as empathy, nurturing and courtesy through parenting. I've observed that many youger people to day lack empathy.

My wife and I made the choice to be a single income family for the reasons above. We feel it's more important to be able to give my daughter the love and attention she needs. We feel that ultimately this is much more valuable than us having a much higher standard of living but not being there for our daughter. I must also ad that my wife really puts out the effort to be a full time mom. Many women try this but its REALLY tough and so many choose to go back to work. It's not for everyone but it would be nice if there was some kind of major incentive/tax credit for having one parent at home. In my opinion that would really be "family values."– VALUING Families

[deesolballs]

tkd, you make a valid point about the single income family. My wife and I married about 2 years ago and decided that I would work and she would stay home when children came. We were both in college at the time. When our son was born she left work to go home and work as a mother and wife full time. This coincided with my graduation and a fairly decent job. I would tighten my belt anyday to know that my children are being taught the fundamentals by someone who loves them as opposed to sitting in a day care being watched by impatient teenagers.

Dad working and mom being a full time teacher, nurse, councilor etc is a dying trend and it is unfortunate. A woman who chooses to stay home with her children is more productive and provides more of a service than one who has kids but works. This is not sexism IMHO. But for this to happen the husband has to get of his arse and provide for his family, can't depend on the wife to do your job.

[AZhitman]

Well said, tkd and Dees. We've been married 8 years and have 3 kids (11, 6, and 4). From the beginning we decided my wife would stay home to be there for the kids. We haven't regretted the decision for a minute. She has a few day care kids she watches during the day, and provides those kids with a better and more stable life than they'd get at home or in a daycare facility for at least 10 hours of their day.

Yeah, we've outgrown our house, and I don't have all the toys I'd like to have bought, but I wouldn't trade the difference in my kids for anything. They're all very bright and successful, and people always comment on how respectful and well-behaved they are. My oldest is straight-A student, captain of his football team, starting middle linebacker AND right guard, captain of the cross-country team and a youth ministry assistant at our church. My middle boy is in 1st grade but is in a special program for gifted kids where he's learning Spanish and taking a 7th-grade science class. My littlest - well, she's the princess. Too early to tell how she'll fare academically, but she's off to a good start.

This kind of revolution is way overdue - This is how I do my little part to contribute, glad to see I'm not alone.

[deesolballs]

Amen Hitman!!

[tkd_q45]

My perception is that cost of living (housing in particular) has risen (especially health insurance) while wages have not kept pace. Also public education has gone down hill and private school runs around $800 a month.

My parents generation looked upon buying a house much like my generation looks upon buying a car. In LA I'd have to live in a crack house (hard to even afford those) or REALLY far from town to afford decent housing. Decent being no open soliciting for drugs, no audible gunfire and proximity to decent schooling public or private. I am paid well for what I do. Yet with all I earn it's not enough to afford decent housing in town. If my wife worked we definitely could.

I think short term thinking buy business/investors is also largely to blame. I see an unsustainable pattern. Last quarter productivity rose 2-3% while joblessness increased slightly. We work a major corporation that has been cut to the bone and there are talks of yet another round of layouff. All the managers I deal with are doing the workload of maybe 3-4 people already! Even in the small business I'm working for I'm doing 3 peoples jobs. I think share holders have an unrealistic expection of profits EVERY quarter. CEOs do what they can only for the next quarter. We need long term thinking.

Our society is blind to the productivity of a full time mother. It is somewhat recoginized if she is a paid nanny but unrecognized if "just" a full time mother. I think being that it's hard to "quantify" the benifits to society of full time parenting, we don't value it. But I belive we would have a better society if more could/would have a full time parent in the family.

[AZhitman]

Agreed - Every time we go to a business function as a couple, the first question she gets asked is, "So, what do you do?"

She gets tired of saying, "CookdinnerwipenosesmopfloorsgotoPTAmeetingsdrivekidstosportingeventswashlaundrymakebedsscrewmyhusbandwashdishespacklunchespaybillsbuygroceriesandlotsofothersh!tyou'renotqualifiedtodoyoucorporatedyke."

[VimyJ]

Is it cooincidental that the price of housing skyrocketed at about the same time as the "women's liberation movement" sent many females into the workplace? Would our economy crash if the labour pool provided by females shrank drastically? Would the economy be further weakened with the loss female incomes driving down demand for material goods? It seems the "emancipation" (ironic that women have been turned into wage slaves in the name of "equal rights") of the fairer sex has gotten us into a "Catch 22" situation. To go back to the "old days" would cost us a lot of money but carrying on as we are looks like we are going to have to pay a bill we can't afford, namely, the break down of civilization as we know it. We've painted ourselves into a corner.

[Q45tech]

By "alien forefathers" I meant not from this planet, the ones that did the genetic manipulations to get us out of the trees otherwise machines wouldn't mean much to any of us. As hard as I try the cat doesn't understand the can opener.

Not meaning to be disrespectful to anyone's beliefs.

Think we were talking about Mechanical engineers not understanding cars?

[reggiegsd]

MY cat understands the can opener!!! He has determined there is a direct link between the can opener sound and food.

[Q45tech]

Economics mainly because US no longer has any one to exploit.Note that Mexico is no longer cost effective we blazed through that in 20 years. Now it is less expensive [wages/productivity] to build/buy high tech in China and transport it via ship to US.The fruits of world education --- our standard of living must decline and inflation is such that 2 family incomes are an almost must .....soon our kids will be sent out to work like the rest of the world.......how long has it been since the Child Workhouses were in place in NewYork/London not even 120 years

More cellphones in China than any other country. They produce 12 times the number of BSEE we do per year.

[tkd_q45]

AZhitman - I think the best response for "what do you do" or "what does your wife do" is to simply reply "She's a full time Mom" - no other explanation is necessary. I think it's important that we start to state "Full Time Mom" just as we would any other job title/description. I think this is the first step in changing the perception of this role.

[deesolballs]

The fruits of world education --- our standard of living must decline and inflation is such that 2 family incomes are an almost must .....soon our kids will be sent out to work like the rest of the world.......how long has it been since the Child Workhouses were in place in NewYork/London not even 120 years

More cellphones in China than any other country. They produce 12 times the number of BSEE we do per year.

2 family incomes are not an "almost must" if a couple decides to live within its means and not chase the Jones. I feel that if I want to have my wife stay home then I need to make enuff money so that we don't have to suffer for that choice. Advanced degrees and hard work is what a husband/father has to do, not sit on his hands and boohoo about the economy and cost of living. If a man wants his wife to stay home then he has to PREPARE himself to be the provider not just in title but in function. It can be done. The now now now mentality is what hurts us, puts us in debt and makes it so that we can't survive unless family plays second fiddle to $$$.

Get off you arses out there dads :rant