92 Mercedes 400e vs. 92 Infiniti Q45

[greg_atlanta]

There is a current of anti-intellectualism and anti-science that has been gaining momentum for a generation...... The proof of our deteriorating society is voter turnout. In the US, less than 50% of eligible voters even bother to show up at the polls....... Boys are practically discouraged to persue intellectual activites for fear of being branded "nerds".

I think that white trash is taking over (at least in Georgia). They're the only ones that bothered to vote last Tuesday (though not all would benefit from Republican legislation). Very strange to have a Republican governor in Georgia!!

(Oh... it was raining all day Tuesday, that always helps Republicans).

People are afraid to be smart for fear of being either gay (for men) or *****y (for women). There's a big push to be ordinary and well-liked. Nobody likes a smart a**.

[greg_atlanta]

oh... "*****y" rhymes with witchy :rolleyes

[VimyJ]

MY cat understands the can opener!!! He has determined there is a direct link between the can opener sound and food.

I've trained my cat to "shake a paw". This is the first step in a regimen with the ultimate goal of having him steal the nieghbor's newspapers.

"Anti-Globilization" demonstrations are going on right here in Chicago as I write. They protest to prevent economic entropy. Socialists protesting against a cause sponsered by capitalists with their end result being a maintaining of the Conservative class and economic status quos and a thwarting of the communist ideal. What a world. Would an "insider" please explain this to me?

[tkd_q45]

It's interesting how this thread has evolved! I have to say another difference between MBZ & Infiniti is the difference in attitude/politics in the forums. I frequent a really great MBZ forum

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum

The political discussions reveal a moderatly conservative/libertarian crowd.

I think it's important to not get too caught up in the "us" and "them" dynamic. Though it's fun (I admit to the enjoyment of the feeling of I'm right), I feel it's important to focus on common ground. I think this is where we can make real progess as a society.

Yes, cats are (or can be) very intelligent creatures!

[greg_atlanta]

"Anti-Globilization" demonstrations are going on right here in Chicago as I write. They protest to prevent economic entropy. Socialists protesting against a cause sponsered by capitalists with their end result being a maintaining of the Conservative class and economic status quos and a thwarting of the communist ideal. What a world. Would an "insider" please explain this to me?

Your cat probably understands this better than we do.

[greg_atlanta]

Yes, cats are (or can be) very intelligent creatures!

I think their owners just have big imaginations. :crazy

[PalmerWMD]

When I was a kid living in Europe , where we had door levers not door knobs, we closed the door so our young cat wouldn't get into the kitchen to cause mischcief.

I saw the cat watching us intently every time we went into the kitchen .It watched my hand go up to the door lever , push it down and so open the kitchen.

Shortly thereafter I watched it so see how it would handle this challenge (drum roll).

It jumped up adn "grabbed the door lever with it's paws, just like we did with our hands, held on to the lever until it's weight would pull it down and a click would announce the door had been opened.

Sometimes its weifht wasnt enough the first try and it would try again.

Either way unlocked doors were no longer an obstacle for her after that.

Fred...

[tkd_q45]

True, true – I've observed both. I've known many a crazy cat person. But I've also observed some really smart behavior from cats. I used to not be a cat person but after spending a lot of time with them I've certainly come to appreciate/be amused by cats. I think many are put off because they don't exhibit the pack animal mantality that dogs do. They (cats) cetainly have their own way of being.

[VimyJ]

True, true – I've observed both. I've known many a crazy cat person. But I've also observed some really smart behavior from cats. I used to not be a cat person but after spending a lot of time with them I've certainly come to appreciate/be amused by cats. I think many are put off because they don't exhibit the pack animal mantality that dogs do. They (cats) cetainly have their own way of being.

And that, gentlemen, brings this thread to a merciful close.

[EWT]

It jumped up adn "grabbed the door lever with it's paws, just like we did with our hands, held on to the lever until it's weight would pull it down and a click would announce the door had been opened.

Sometimes its weifht wasnt enough the first try and it would try again.

Either way unlocked doors were no longer an obstacle for her after that.

Fred...

One of my cats has that routine down too. It took him a little longer to figure out how to get doors that open towards him, since it is harder to pull it towards him than push it away, but he figured that out too. I had to replace the door handle on our laundry room with a knob so we could shut our cats in there if needed.

[VimyJ]

Since this thread seems to have nine lives, I must report on the latest developments in "Frank's" training regimen. Last night, as I was attempting to hone the shake a paw trick, he rolled over! He wants to accelerate the training! Some think me quite mad for attempting to train a cat for a life of crime but I beg to differ. "Cat burglar" has to have a realistic, historic origin.

[EWT]

Since this thread seems to have nine lives, I must report on the latest developments in "Frank's" training regimen. Last night, as I was attempting to hone the shake a paw trick, he rolled over! He wants to accelerate the training! Some think me quite mad for attempting to train a cat for a life of crime but I beg to differ. "Cat burglar" has to have a realistic, historic origin.

Does your require food to perform? Mine will sit down and shake hands if they know food is forthcoming. They're not as cooperative if food isn't involved.

[911/Q45]

Barefoot and pregnant wives, bigotry and stupid cat tricks. What has this site come to!

[EWT]

Barefoot and pregnant wives, bigotry and stupid cat tricks. What has this site come to!

It could get worse. We could be talking about reverse indiglo gauges, glowing washer nozzles and triplane spoilers on a Civic.

[greg_atlanta]

Since this thread seems to have nine lives.....

I'm noticing a strong correlation between cat ownership and Infiniti ownership... Hmmmmm.....

I'm more of a dog person myself. Have a friend with 3 Weimerainers (sp?) and they are the perfect accessory for my car. Great color match. (Charcoal grey paint with light grey seats).

But I never take them for a ride... too messy. :rolleyes

[szh]

I'm noticing a strong correlation between cat ownership and Infiniti ownership... Hmmmmm.....

I'm more of a dog person myself. Have a friend with 3 Weimerainers (sp?) and they are the perfect accessory for my car. Great color match. (Charcoal grey paint with light grey seats).

But I never take them for a ride... too messy. :rolleyes

Well ... we do not have cats or dogs anymore . I used to have dogs when I was younger. But, it urns out my wife and I are allergic to cat and dog hairs. So, no pets now.

Z

[PalmerWMD]

Well ... we do not have cats or dogs anymore . I used to have dogs when I was younger. But, it urns out my wife and I are allergic to cat and dog hairs. So, no pets now.

Z

Too bad about teh allergy.

My last long term Gf (23..) was allergic to cats also.

I had to de-cat my room for for her to stay over.(Launder all sheets , vacuum and stuff)

And after picking up the cats, I had to wash and change shirts.

But it was worth it...

Fred...:naughty

[tkd_q45]

Not meaning to disrupt the arc of this thread - a couple more things I noticed that our Q has that my E does not:

Variable intermitent settings for the windsheild wipers. On the E I'm stuck with off, 5 sec. or On.

No heated rearview mirrors

That sooooo cool keys the Q comes with.

[PalmerWMD]

Variable intermitent settings for the windsheild wipers. On the E I'm stuck with off, 5 sec. or On.

No heated rearview mirrors

That sooooo cool keys the Q comes with.

I'm kinda shocked at the E's limited wipers as u describe.

I also LOVE those cool keys.

Fred...

[tkd_q45]

My guess is that MBZ can/could get away with not having those other details because of the three pointed star on the hood. Also realize that the list price back in 92 for the 400e was $57,000!!!!!!!

I think MBZ gets away with a lot of "crap" because of the precieved "status symbol" of their brand. Or maybe it's just a German car thing. I know of VW owners who just put up with all the quirks of their cars (I know later models aren't so problem some). It was a common joke back in the 80's early 90's that VW owners know the parts persons (at dealer) by first name. Porsches are also notorious for being VERY problematic, but those people also put up with it (I would if I could AFFORD to; I love the 928!).

Unless I win the Lotto, this will probably be the last and only German car I'll own. I love the way the design cars (also love the A6 4.2), I just can't afford to maintain them.

[texasoil]

There is a totally different cultural philosophy in th etwo companies.

I was once lectured by a MBZ design engineer when I asked why they did not have an adjustable steering wheel (like my 1972 Citroen SM).

Nissan long ago figured that 50% of the U.S. drivers are Women!!!, and they do not fit the German male body dimensions for which the MBZ interior is optimized. So, make it work for almost all body dimensions using electronics that work.

MBZ engineers designing the different 'electronic/mechanical' apparently do not talk to each other, and leave integration to still another cult. Thus you have in MBZ's low volume incredibly inefficient custom electronic 'boxes' that communicate over an ancient 'Car Area network' There may be 10-20 Different version boxes for a function in the the same car during a model year as they 'tweak (I.E. debug)' the systems. This guarantees very high per unit cost and poor reliability overall relative to the actual function of the systems.

Even the first Q45's have a much more complex and reliable "CAN" system than latest MBZ, and it is smoothly integrated (and has wiring harnesses that do not fall apart in 5-8 years).

Remember the German manufacturing system has the highest labor cost per hour in the world, and the lowest productivity per dollar. This is aggravated by a breakdown in their social system that did place high status and respect on skilled manual labor. ( a machinist apprentice sent a full year in an all day trainijng program in 'trade school' learning how to use a hand file preisely!). That was year 1 of 4.

Now industrial 'robots' can (and do) perform with much higher precision and reliability (and they do not get 75 work days per year off for vacation, holidays, etc.) $100,000 CNC milling machines operated by semi literate 'third world' trained, but uneducated workers do much better quality work, much faster.

Now, the 'unseen' parts like under the dash braces and the like ARE much more refined in the MBZ than Nissan or Toyota products

[VimyJ]

One can infer from your post that Daimler bought Chyrsler to save itself. That's one way to skin a cat.

[tkd_q45]

Don't know, maybe so! I was talking to a good friend of my father-in-law. He is someone who was at first suscessful business owner (clothing manufacturing) then a very successful banker/finance person. He was telling me that it is very common for a company that's in trouble to go and buy another company.

That being said I would be surprised being that MBZ has such a strong brand. But seeing how things have been going in th business world lately, it would not surprise me.

And about those German engineers. Reminds me of when I was in school in Switzerland. It was the first time in Europe for me. I noticed how so many German students thought they did things the "right way" - A German friend of my fathers often jokes "there's the German way and...the wrong way!"

I wouldn't be surprised if what texasoil wrote "the German male body dimensions for which the MBZ interior is optimized" - is how they do things. I can't even choose which vents my air will come out of! In my E you have a vent setting but depending on conditions air will only flow out of all four vents at certain times! You only have two speed controls for the fans - Low or Full Blast. There are range of speeds but only they are only available to the AC controler when you put the AC on AUTO! What control freaks!

Maybe MBZ's engineering dept is full of guys like Deiter from Sprokets:)!

[longrunQ]

when I looked at luxury cars from 1990-92, the best overall value turned out to be the q45( a friend of mine,around the same time, got a 91 mbz e-class, so I guess its IMHO)

Overall was styling. THe e-class looks like an ugly beast in comparison, both inside and out. Even the 89-95 bmw 5 series was lacking aesthetically compared to the q

engine. THe q45 had a v8 with tons of power. the bmw, acura and many others (at least the ones that even remotely compared in cost) had v6s and were not as powerful. Some were even front wheel drive(ugh). The q has one of the most powerful engines in a sedan in that period. If I am correct, barring the benz, the q had the most powerful engine in a luxury sedan.

Space. I am 6-5, 260 lbs so I needed something that wouldnot cramp my style. THe q has one of the most spacious cabins in a luzxury car( I did not look at american cars so I dont know how the cadillacs and lincolns compare) . I did ride in a 93 lincoln mkviii and the front passenger side does not have nearly the amount of room on the q. I also liked the fact that the steering wheel has tilt as well as telescope. Another cool thing was the jump feature that moves the steering wheel out of the way and the seat to the farthest back position to allow me get out of the car easily. to illustrate how roomy it is, When I move the front passenger seat all the way to the back, my friends always look for the button to move it forward because they are not used to so much space and it feels weird to them.

running cost/reliability. I eliminated american cars because they break a lot and I eliminated german cars because they are too expensive to fix.

Overall, I feel the q45 was the best value between 1990 and 95. I am so glad I found this one sitting at the car lot waiting on an educated buyer to take it home and care for it .

[Sopdadope]

Overall, I feel the q45 was the best value between 1990 and 95. I am so glad I found this one sitting at the car lot waiting on an educated buyer to take it home and care for it .

awwww how heartwarming....:sniff sniff: :cuddle

I rode a late 80's or early 90's E-class once. umm.....the interior was yucko! The interior doorhandle's reminded me of the handles I have along the roof of my Q. I think in the early 90's, German automakers felt complacent in making decent cars that were not up to their usual standards simply because of the lack of competition. BMW caught on real quick and got with the program. MB on the other hand...I have a strange feeling their engineers are still out back sipping Lager.

[greg_atlanta]

Maybe MBZ's engineering dept is full of guys like Deiter from Sprokets:)!

[greg_atlanta]

Couldn't resist....

I would love to have a mid- to late-70s S-class, or SL coupe. But need to be filthy rich first.

I have an acquaintance with celery green 1974 S-class which he bought new and still drives, always says "Been car shopping many times and can't find a car I like." And probably not a money issue... he's more the "old money" crowd who delights in downplaying his means.

(Good book: "Class," by Paul Fussell... perfectly explains how only the middle classes are obsessed with shiny new things).

[longrunQ]

he's more the "old money" crowd who delights in downplaying his means.

(Good book: "Class," by Paul Fussell... perfectly explains how only the middle classes are obsessed with shiny new things).

I dont think that any rich person ever trys to downplay their wealth, whether it be new rich, or old rich, or divine rich, or soverign rich or any kind of rich. The only difference is in the things they buy.

The new rich buy the things they wanted when they were growing up, and are excluded from some things because they simply have no knowledge or desire. Noveau rich buy lots and lots of cars and big expensive houses and flashy jewelry, but they dont have enough class to have a show dog or an art collection or a stable full of thoroughbreds.a good example is the cash money millionaires guys. One of them has fifty cars and a house with about 20 rooms(tacky rooms I must add)

THe old rich folk are not interested in gaudy, or tacky. I dont think you will see an old rich person outfitting his range rover with rims , or a sound system. They do like to show their wealth though , and they pretend to downplay it to make it even more oppressive. Old rich people buy expensive artwork, and antique cars to differentiate themselves ( they claim that the old stuff is better) The women dont buy flashy diamonds-they buy pearl, but still as expensive. They take pride in their wine collection , and stable, and dogs , and gardens etc. Old rich may not have a limo on standby 24/7 , but they will be more likely to use gold cutlery . THeir sweaters may not have a fancy designer name, but you can be sure it cost as much or more than the designer clothing.

ANd of course old rich buy things that actually appreciate in price.

Even the sovereigns who will have and have had their money in their family forever still show wealth. The sultan of brunei has a car museum and he has been known to order six different colors of one car- that cost $2.5 million a piece.

[tkd_q45]

In defense of my E I have to say that one of the reasons I bought it was that I was really impressed by how well the car withstood time. Paint and interior parts wear well - much better than any Japanese make. They do have their problems but check out an MBZ forum and see how many people post thier mileage in their signature. You'll see some pretty impressive numbers.

greg_atlanta - you bust me up! That pic remineded me of the first time I saw Sprokets. I had just come home from Switzerland and that chracter was just like some of my fellow students I had met! There are some (were?) German students that were so "Dieter" like!

Maybe those MBZ engineers look more like this...

[eagent]

I have to say,

This was the best forum post I've run across in years!

My experience (prior to divorce) was echoed above: My wife made a phenomenal stay-at-home Mom... and still does as an ex. My kids show it in how well behaved they are (and they LOVE taking Dad's 90Q for a Rocket Ride a few times a month as well... tip-o-the-hat to the Q-Forum here...;-)

I just left Newport Beach, CA for Vancouver, Washington. On the way I collected real estate mags to evaluate the costs within the Interstate 5 corridor between the two locales. Here's the gig:

1) My rental in Newport Beach has a value of $850,000 for a 2 bedroom, 1150 square foot 1960 cottage... no view, but a very safe street (never locked the door).

My place in Vancouver, Washington costs $185,000 for a 4 bedroom, 3 level, 2 bath 1910 home that has been completely modernized...

But it rains like hell much of the time.

2) Between NB and VAN, home costs range from $100k for a starter in Atwater/Merced CA. to $5.5 million for a castle in Medford... on 140 buildable acres. That same acerage in Weed or Eureka costs $160,000.

3) An average couple these days (you define "average" for yourself...) can barely make it on a single income unless your college cinder block and Ikea furnishings are coming with. Sad but true, based on over 1,000 informal interviews with Executive America. Many CEO's and VP's and their spouses are 6-figures in debt to keep the look and feel of success happening.

My first day in NB, pulling onto PCH had me staring at CUSTOM Ferrari's, Hummer's and 600-series MBZ's... in my confusion, I queried my business partner about the financial condition of this gorgeous part of the world (he's the former founder of Century 21 Real Estate). His response?

"It's a sunny place for shady people"...

Nuff said.

4) My favorite example of intelligence in coupledom is Kathy Dimond and Stu Watson (formerly well-known PR folks and editors in Portland, OR), who sold their place in Portland to move to a real life up the Oregon gorge, where they can have political and real impact on the local economy and politics. They say every day there is like a dream compared to the "struggle for the legal tender" of living in the city.

5) Rethink where you live, why you live, and what you live for, and you'll find that small-town America may be a viable solution. The internet and UPS/FedX make living nearly anywhere viable... and if we would spend more time focused on growing great kids, and doing some internal growth as well (OK, and tweaking our respective hot rods), maybe we can solve this whole problem over time.

Bad rant, but I've driven 23.5 hours, and I'm a little groggy. I came here to fix my sunroof. I left fixing the world's problems...

Yeah, right!Best,ME