300zx vx 240sx

[Goose93]

All I can say is that was a hoot. Scary as hell but fun. The CGT... Porsche built a car to win lemans, then the FIA changed the rules. Prsche says what do we do with a hundred million in R&D, and consumers said sell it to us. You have to love the thinking.BTW: notice no funky paddles or buttons.

I am happy to see GM making a real effort to create truely world class cars again. I admit I was a little surprised to see the Caddilac badge on the program, but whatever.

[1992Q45A]

Just read that article..

"Upon opening the hood of the 240SX, you can see evidence of chassis components glued together all over the place. The strut towers and the firewall has epoxy between all the seams. Often for weekend budget race cars the chassis would be seam/spot welded where panels of the car meet, making the car as stiff as possible. A roll cage would also be utilized to strengthen the car's various weak-spots, but this is not a race car. Street cars need more discretion when choosing what modifications to be done, as a race car is a hazard for street use due to the drastic alteration of the crash characteristics of the vehicle. The best compromise we can have in this case is to add on various chassis stiffening bars, many of them sourced from Japan as they are readily available."

With the 300 you will read about engineering accomplishments regarding chasis stiffness and other engineering high points.. with the 240 well you can read above.

[1992Q45A]

All I can say is that was a hoot. Scary as hell but fun. The CGT... Porsche built a car to win lemans, then the FIA changed the rules. Prsche says what do we do with a hundred million in R&D, and consumers said sell it to us. You have to love the thinking.BTW: notice no funky paddles or buttons.

I am happy to see GM making a real effort to create truely world class cars again. I admit I was a little surprised to see the Caddilac badge on the program, but whatever.

Goose.. I totally love how they put a "boring old manual" in the GT.. way to keep it real.. OF the GTs many many many technological accomplishments, I think one of the coolest thing is the nice old default manual...

Porsche, Accept No Substitute

I always have a sweetspot for the Z, since my car is basically a 4 door Z. Regarding chasis stiffness, anyone have any info/stats on this? I know the Q45 chasis was the stiffest of the time relating to luxury cars (MB/BMW/JAG/ETC) by 30%.. I imagine this was the same with the ZX

[chmercer]

i just said that to prove a point. I did not take kindly to the post that had the blanket statment of 240sx being garbage and not worth the driveway space. no reason to totally trash a car, not like i did and not like 1992q did either.

[keepingthe240]

The height of the muscle car era was '64 with the ford thunderbolt and the dodge savoy (lil' old lady from pasadena)< how ever you spell it. The z06 is not a muscle car,its a sports car (in my book) Lord knows how much(gross) hp the z06 makes vs. the t/b or savoy (pre 1971)...h/p was rated @gross...... (after 1972 )was rated @net That NAMS fender bar looks good..if only i could make it myself. Specs for '90 n/a 300zxweight curb..3220lb test..3400 222hp/198lb-ft tq0-60 7.11/4 15.5skippad 0.88g slaom 65.6 mph I'm sure even a '91 (stock s13) sr20 was a slug

[Goose93]

I don't know the exact marketing numbers, but i do know the Z was built with a steal mono-coque sub-frame. This is what makes the car heavy and also very strong. I believe the Z had the least chassis and suspension flex of any other car in the class.

I also know the z32, R32, I think the Q and also the s14 share a lot of design principles and parts. Nissan has always cross platformed as much as they could.

Car's like the silvia, Z, and GTR will probably never be made again. The names may live on, but the "no limits" attitude and the brashness to make cars for people who like cars is gone. Some of the ideas will continue like the 350, but the market has changed and so has Nissan.

Okay, that was a philosophical ramble, time for sleep...

[keepingthe240]

Most 240 owners are young kids.. Young kids tend to think whatever car they own is the best in the world.. I was guilty of this as well, as were most of my friends...

I get burned out with the young kids with the 240s( no offense intended) I drive a 240 vs. a 300z to save a few bucks towards mods and esier to work on. Excluding the awd...i can't see why a skyline is better then a supra.Try getting 600rwhp out of a rb without taking it apart..supra...noda open the valve covers!! Strapping a rb is a 240 might be a different story..with lighter weight.

[Megaseth]

the internals of an RB will hold 800hp

[1992Q45A]

Hey they are all Nissans, Nissan love

Nissan is by far the most sporting of the Japanese names.. ok maybe I'm biased..

I miss the days of Nissan regulating in IMSA, and lemans..

I miss the balls out attitude of cars. The 350z is great, and all.. I just miss the damn the expense attitude of motorsports and production cars. Unfortunatly I can't afford a Carrera GT, which drives that attitude home.

Goose: I'm not to keen on the differences in ZX years. Can you highlight the different years/changes, or point me to the link?

I seem to remember 94s being peoples favorite, because of some interior and mechanical upgrades. I remember people not liking 96 because of OBDII and the ability to mod the ECU... you have a 96 and a stillen ECU so I guess they have a work around for this?

96 was a bad year for Nissan.. I know the VH45DE in the Q45 was down on power compared to previous incarnations, and I remember reading this applied to the VG as well.

[Goose93]

The best reference for Z32's is the twinturbo.net FAQ area. The guys can be a little corse at times but the info is solid. The vedors section is also very good for any Nissan.

The dominant changes to the Z were in 94. They changed the rear wing, and gave the car suede interior panels. The also moved to the newer electric HICAS as opposed to the hydrolic. They also removed most of the sound insulation, so the cars is louder inside.

Those were the obvious changes. In 96 all Nissans went to OBDII. This made the 96 Z a little harder to tune since nobody wrote a new ECU program for it. You have to realize that there are only 500-600 96's ever made for the US. Nissan also removed the variable cam timing supposedly for emmissions.

It has been reported that the 96TT lost hp, but I can show you my 96 didn't. Even though "everybody supposedly knows it", I can't find any factual basis for this rumor.

The lack of model updates is what eventually made the z32 a runner up in many people'e eyes. But even in it's final years the car still ranked amoung the top of the "overall" charts when compared to the Supra, RX-7, NSX, and 3000GT.

[1992Q45A]

Suede interior panels.. That's nice.. Was the considered an upgrade to whatever was on the panels before.. Suede is nice, not usedo n many vehicles.. The old S600 mercedes had suede..

[Goose93]

The early years had a strange burlap like cloth and then they went to a more standard cloth interior through 93.

I love my suede and leather. It is so pleasent to the senses. It may add a few pounds, but it is worth it.

I just wish I had a little more sonud dampening. ( I am working on this project currently )

[hannibal]

Honestly, I think you all need to take a step back for a minute and look at cars in general. You're all looking at the upper echelon vehicles of these manufacturers. The fastest cars sold without obscene price tags, ever. To complain about the 350Z and RX8, for instance, being underpowered is ridiculous. Look at the horsepower numbers again. They're above the self imposed Japanese limit that has recently been abolished because of the fact that Nissan said "screw this crap, we're giving the Z 287hp!" Of course, we all know that at least the Supra and GT-R pushed out more than the limit, but were underrated on purpose, but automakers have come to the point where they can't keep using the old engines anymore, it's time for the next generation. Give Nissan, Toyota, etc some time to work on their next engines, eventually some will be as venerable as the RB, JZ, VG, and SRs of yore. All of the aforementioned engines were designed in the 80s, if not the late 70s, technology has changed, you can do more with less and without boost (unfortunately). I want all cars to have turbo(s) too, but it's just not going to happen when car companies can make an NA V6 with 287hp.

Look down the ladder and see where cars are making huge gains. The upper echelon of performance is in a transitional limbo, while the smaller sport compacts are coming alive. Think of how much the Sentra, Civic (yes, Civic), Integra (RSX) have gained recently. They're civilized, fun to drive, quick daily grocery-getters. Beyond that, you don't have to have 300whp to have fun, as much as I hate to say it. Power is useless if you can't handle it. Moreover, the average driver doesn't use all 287 of the Z's ponies on a daily basis, hell, most drivers wouldn't use all of my 150ish horses, which I use and enjoy daily with a glee unseen in most people. Not to mention that it is one of the best handling FWD cars, ever.

Cars aren't sucking, they're evolving.

Great post, nametakennowTechnology is evolving. With an extra 0.5L, the 350Z makes almost as much power as a Z32 TT. Things like variable timing and microprocessors the size of coins make this possible. But we still associate turbos with performance. It'll take a while for those ideas to evolve too.As a car enthusiast, I look at hybrids like Prius and the Civic and cringe at the thought of how our roads might look in a few years. But who knows, 20 years from now, we could be posting on NICO about how our hybrid Skyline ran in the 12s last weekend and gave us 60mpg on the way home

I have a 2002 isssue of Motor Trend, they tested the GTI 1.8T, spec V, SVT Focus, and Civic Si. All of these cars performed better than the 60-70s muscle cars they mentioned, including the Camaro RS 350 and Mustang Mach1. All this from cars that are safer, cleaner running, and definitely more reliable. Back in the 70s, if you told a Mach1 driver that a 4 cylinder 160hp Civic built 30 years from now would outrun his Stang, he woulda laughed and ran you off the road with his 2+ ton 'muscle car'.

And there is a distinction between trannys like BMW SMG and Porsche/VW Triptonic. Although they function the same (hit a button or flip a lever to make it shift gears), they are very different. The Triptonic type trannys still have torque converters. The SMG and Ferrari transmission are true manuals with clutches, flywheels, etc.

[Ghettokracker71]

Seeing as I don't feel like reading 3 pages worth of posts,I'm just going to post my opinion on the topic:

I prefer the 240sx because it is lightweight,and nimbler,and looks better. I like the 300zx plenty,but something about it just isn't me. The 240sx FEELS more like it was made to corner,and have fun with. The ZX FEELS more like a corvette-killer,thats just not my style. The ZX of course outperforms the SX stock car to stock car.

EDIT:I had a Chevelle at the time of my first job...restoring/tuning/mainting a collection of vintage british cars. I quickly discovered when tuning them and testing them that they were alot more rewarding,entertaining and fun to drive then my current car. I loved the way they handled,and felt. I stopped working there,kept the chevelle,ended up getting a 5.0 T-bird...well,lets not talk about that one. lol. I love the way a lightweight nimble sports car feels. To me it doesn't have to be fast so long as it feels fast. If it feels fast,I don't have to actually break any laws to have fun,unlike the Chevelle/T-bird.

[C-Kwik]

That is a near impossible question to answer.

If you've ever driven on a road course, or just raced in general.. you know it all boils down to drivers.. Go to a open track day, you will see cars pass cars you would have never thought would have been capable of doing that.

Whatever handles better is going to be determined by who is the better driver.. Who can take the car to the threshold of grip.

Racing is about the preservation of momentum, period. Whoever preserves more momentum, wins. This is why you see suprises all the time at the track.

I don't even know if the 300zx is a twin turbo.. The NA Z brakes are weaker then the TTs, but are probably still more capable then stock 240sx brakes.. Brakes are KEY.. The more potent brakes, the harder you can go into a corner..

I haven't raced much, but I love racing.. The few times I've been on a track, give me the feeling that this is a near impossible question to ask. The cars are close enough, that it will all boil down to driver ability.. Plain and simple... Which ever one of you is a better driver, is going to come out on top. That's my guess

While the driver is absolutely important, given equally good drivers, the limit of adhesion then becomes the next major factor. But I thought the discussion was about the cars.

The brakes on the 90 300ZX NA were thinner(26mm) while the Turbo 90 and all models in the subsequent years were the same at 30mm. http://importnut.net/300zxbrakeswap.htm

And the differences in brakes do not offer any lower stopping distances. It offers increased resistance to fade. But consider a TT 300ZX is significantly heavier than a NA version and uses the same brakes as the 91+ NA models. While the TT version should be faster overall, the TT would likely suffer from fade sooner than the NA version. And I think Fade will be an issue on the TT's for sure. They are quite undersized for a car that ways about 3600 lbs. By comparison, a Supra is lighter and uses larger brakes(12" x 30mm IIRC), and also uses spiral venting. And tires dictate the actual stopping power. Larger brakes lend to better longevity.

Stock for stock, a TT Z will likely beat out a stock 240sx. even if compared with similar tires. However, I would stay away from using a TT Z on a track even with upgrades. Not only are the upgrades expensive, the car is just too heavy. And weight is a poor way to increase high speed stability. It counters lift, yes, but adds mass and momentum. Being able to change momentum is more important than simply maintaining it. Weight takes it's toll on the motor, brakes and tires. High speed stability can be enhanced through better aerodynamics without adding much mass. The biggest mechanical differences to overcome from a tuning standpoint is that the 240sx uses a MacPherson Strut and few have ABS(the ones that do are only 3 channel). Neither are crippling though(Porsche and BMW still use struts up front). But given a set budget(not unlimited but reasonable enough to enahnce both cars, I think the 240 will come out on top. Adding power is easy enough. The 300ZX would need a major diet to be able to compete. The 240 can cut cost by borrowing brakes from the 300ZX. Where as the 300ZX would need something along the lines of a Brembo Gran Turismo Kit. tires would need to bear the additonal weight while still handling the same lateral loads. I can see it being harder to control tire temps in such a heavy car.

The 300ZX does make a great Grand Touring car. But even modified versions have not been up to par with many other tuned supercars. Find some old articles about Stillen's SMZ when compared to other cars. They found it to be a great car off the track, but not so great on it.

[Goose93]

The starting level of the Z dictates that the upgrade path will be more expensive. Depending on what you are doing with the car the Z may not be the best bang for your buck.

But don't be fooled, the Z even with it's weight, is still a very potent car. I can say with experience that the Z brakes are good. In stock form they can fade relatively easily, but using a good set of fluids, pads and rotors will get you a long way.

Using the SMZ as a measurement of track prowess is not a good example though. The SMZ was not a setup, special one off track machine. It was a Z with a new look, a little more power and some cool badging. Look at the GTZ if you want to see some the potential in a Z.

I can also tell you that 3600# is a little high even with fluids. Most TT's sit around 3400-3500#.

Also the Supra is better in many ways, but why don't you see them road racing alot? The Supra also had a three year old bar to measure up against. And they still made it ugly. If Nissan had updated the Z to make it an apples to apples comparison, the Z would have broken some Toyota hearts.

Back to the 240 vs. 300 conversation...

How many of you 240 owners have aggresively driven a 300? Just curious because I have driven both.

[tnkrstoyco]

Like I said I have both and have driven both pretty hard.

[1992Q45A]

The Supra is a very capable track car.. I see them frequently at open track events.. If you read through old archived reviews it generally posted the highest slalom/skidpad/g rating numbers.. and usually ran neck and neck with the venerable rx7 for track time numbers.. The Z was never on top of any of these..

I do remember a ZX turbo vs 944 review.. They posted nearly identicial track times If I remember correctly.

[Goose93]

Which one do you think is the better track car?

and which one do you want in your dirveway?

Would you want both?

Here is my propsed driveway. Note: I am a car addict and I truely believe that a 7 car garage with a loft upstairs is the perfect house.

My 96 TT as a GT track car and weekend cruiserA nice little 180sx playthingI am looking at a G35x for daily driver

Wife is looking at the Murano's and the Titan/Armada.

[jEzTeR]

Go fo the FX45!



My driveway would have a R32Z33FX45

[C-Kwik]

I'd push for the Titan or the Armada myself. It would make a great tow vehicle for my track car....

[jEzTeR]

I'd push for the Titan or the Armada myself. It would make a great tow vehicle for my track car....

Good point the FX can't pull much.

[Goose93]

But I don't want to pay for the gas milage the rest of the year. I think she will either go with the G35 or the Murano. She doesn't like the FX's looks and it's pretty small on the inside. I've got two boys so more interior room is advantagous.

But who knows. I have no problems with the concept of multiple cars per driver. Like I said earlier my garage will have a Z and one of the SX's soon.

I am getting to a point now where getting a purely dedicated track and hoodlum car is desirable. My Z will keep me sane but I want something even more un-rational.

I have thought about a slicktop N/A Z with a built motor and full race prep. My more likely choice though will be either a 180SX or an s14 m/c.

Both cars will let me class race on the weekends, but I think it will come down to overall project costs.

With the Z I know I can make a VG30 with around 400HP ( I have a few secret design ideas ), but cost of spares and upkeep may put it off my list. Or I could do the unthinkable and set up a Z race car with the VG30DETT. I also know I can get the chassis into mid 2k weight range. This combo would be a lot of fun and something most people would never do.

Advantage Silvia. Parts availability, by not using such a custom motor build up spares and service would be a lot cheaper.

[Megaseth]

just swap an SR20 into the Z, strip it, and use that.

[Goose93]

I don't think the SR will give me enough torque to really launch the car out of the corners.

[C-Kwik]

I get 15 mpg on my KA as it is. I don't think it will hurt me much. In fact it might save me money since I won't be so lead footed.

[chmercer]

z32 race car = gut the ish out of it. like drill the frame nylon nuts carbon doors gut it. z32 is a lot of beef to be slinging around stock form.

[Goose93]

I am just playing with idea. I would love to have one to drive to work and one to drive to the finish line.

In the end it will come down to cost and love for the game. with many of hte Z32's retiring due to age restrictions in racing some nice chassis are showing up for sale.

I have also found some 240 race cars also. Like I said...

Money & love

[VimyJ]

Well I'm speaking about the Jap imports. The 90's was when they conglomerated all of their tried methods and put them together in amazing sports cars. I'm sad to see that they took a step backwards as they seemed to be going in the right direction.

The mid 90s was also when Nissan got into some really deep finanicial doodoo which led to a French buy out.

Everything changed after that. Among other things, the Q was downgraded and the ridicously overbuilt J30 was eventually dropped. The I30 appeared to take on the ES300.

I haven't reached the end of this thread but the VG30DE in the na Z32 setup was rated at 225 hp. The J's VG is tuned to 210 hp. The difference is created by the exhaust tuning. Sport vs touring. The VG in the J is willing and able but at 3800lbs the lack of low end torque is the only complaint I might have. Get the rpm past 2500 and the vvt VG really comes to life. The engine is bullet proof and extremely reliable.

[NismoRb20S13]

The vg is a solid motor and if you look at it has the highest stock rating of nissan performance engines from the factory. It's weakness if any are the hydo. lifters limiting the rev's but thats easily fixed.

I have both a s13 240sx and a Z32 300zx NA (now undergoing a TT swap)

the z would win stock hands down as long as it didn't have HICAS lol, and it isn't that much heavier and i also have the 2+2 model.

3350#'s vs 2650#'s isn't much when the chassis is more than 15 times more solid. The Z32 chassis is so rigid that most moderate front end crashes that wouldn't seem so bad can kill the frame,

There is a reason that Full coverage on a Z32 costs more than most german sports cars.