CHATROOM: Engine Noise Upon Startup

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rrs26ja
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CHATROOM: Engine Noise Upon Startup

Postby rrs26ja » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:18 am

I am hearing this ticking or tapping noise. It is worse when I first start the car in a cold morning, but I still hear it. I have checked the oil level and it is fine. Anyone else hear this noise?
Modified by rrs26ja at 5:31 AM 12/24/2008


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Jimothy12
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Re: Engine Noise (rrs26ja)

Postby Jimothy12 » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:51 am

Mine does this too but only on cold mornings before the engine is warmed up. This is normal.

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Re: Engine Noise (Jimothy12)

Postby philipa_240sx » Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:57 am

The QR25DE motor (like many Nissan engines) uses a direct acting valve train. Unlike a conventional hydraulic lifter type (commonly found on domestic cars), they can be noisy when cold. This is due to the greater tolerances between the cam and valve lifters... metal contracts when cold. Hydraulic lifters can compensate for this... they auto adjust. A direct acting valve train does not. Once warmed up, the metal in the cam and lifter expand, the tolerances decrease and the noise disappears.

The noise should disappear after 10-20 minutes of driving. Even then, you may get an occasional ticking noise. This is normal. If the noise is very loud, and never ceases, then you possibly have another problem... get it checked by the dealer immediately.

BTW, I have had this noise on 2 Nissan vehicles... my '03 Altima and the Rogue. Neither have had engine issues related to the valve noise.

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Re: Engine Noise (philipa_240sx)

Postby Ticmxman » Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:21 am

Thanks philipa, I had noted this noise and assumed and hoped it was normal and now I know it is normal and why it occurs.

Merry Christmas everyone!

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Re: Engine Noise (Ticmxman)

Postby kerrton » Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:03 pm

Yes, thank you so much Philip for that info., that is great to know.

I was pretty worried once or twice when I was driving home, after about 8 minutes of driving the engine began rattling quite loudly for a brief period of about 5 seconds then it abruptly went away. It sounds like what others are describing but a little different because the noise didn't occur at first start up (I don't think, this engine is kinda "raspy" a lot of the time anyway so it's hard to tell), but seemed to start later on and then quickly go away. I've been driving it for a week since then and took it on a long highway trip and everything sounds great, so I guess it's not something to worry about. I was just concerned about possible pre-mature engine wear.... thanks again for the info.

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Re: Engine Noise (kerrton)

Postby kerrton » Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:11 pm

And one other thing - do you feel the noise in engines such as with the Rogue that do not have hydraulic lifters experience more engine wear than those with hydrualic lifters? (Does this noise indicate excessive engine wear???!!)

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Re: Engine Noise (rrs26ja)

Postby rrs26ja » Fri Dec 26, 2008 2:59 pm

Thanks everyone for your input, I feel better. I do hear this even after the engine is warm, but not as bad.

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Re: Engine Noise (kerrton)

Postby philipa_240sx » Sat Dec 27, 2008 4:07 am

kerrton wrote:And one other thing - do you feel the noise in engines such as with the Rogue that do not have hydraulic lifters experience more engine wear than those with hydrualic lifters? (Does this noise indicate excessive engine wear???!!)
I have not had any wear related issues, nor do I think it's higher than a normal engine.

The noise you hear is nothing more than the cam 'lightly' tapping the valve lifter. If the wear does exceed tolerances, the valve lifters can be replaced with ones of different thicknesses.

Nissan valve train design in the QR25DE is similar to most of their engines. It is very lightweight and efficient... needing less power to operate than some other designs.

rrs26ja,

The valve noise is a light rapping or ticking noise that rises and falls with engine rpm. It should only be at startup. It concerns me that you are getting noises after the engine has fully warmed up. To be sure I would get the dealer to look at it. Even if there is no problem found, if anything does occur down the road it will help to have it documented.

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Re: Engine Noise (rrs26ja)

Postby rogue06th » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:44 pm

I think some Altimas with the same engine do that too.

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Re: Engine Noise (rogue06th)

Postby philipa_240sx » Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:07 pm

My '03 Altima had the same noise...
philipa_240sx wrote:BTW, I have had this noise on 2 Nissan vehicles... my '03 Altima and the Rogue. Neither have had engine issues related to the valve noise.

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Re: Engine Noise (tapping)

Postby philipa_240sx » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:24 am

Just a quick update regarding these noises at startup:

The noise may be caused by piston slap. When the engine is cold, the piston shrinks slightly. At approximately mid piston stroke, the connecting rod is acting at a sharp angle and 'pushes' the piston into the cylinder wall creating a metallic rapping noise. Once the engine is started, the oil starts circulating (or in this case gets splashed up by the crankshaft), the piston starts expanding (tightening up if you will) and the noise goes away.

Piston slap on startup appears to be normal for this type of engine. It's due in part to the design and is not a defect or wear issue. Both of my Nissan's with the QR25DE motor (Altima and Rogue) exhibited this condition. There was never any wear related issues, excessive oil consumption, etc.

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Re: Engine Noise (tapping)

Postby casperfun » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:43 am

Hope its not a stupid question. So there is always oil present and nothing to do with a crappy filter that may have an inferior anti-drainback valve which could lead to start up noise?

So this start-up noise is totally unrelated to the latter because your saying the engine is suppose to sound that way. :)

Actually, I never really paid attention to the start-up sound in my Maxima for 16 yrs. I was always happy if it sounded & drove smooth while driving.

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Re: Engine Noise (tapping)

Postby philipa_240sx » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:19 am

I have to correct my earlier statement.

The QR25DE has piston oil jets which lubricate the cylinder walls, wrist pin, and aids in piston cooling. This is addition to the splashing of oil by the crank.

The anti-drainback valve ensures there is oil in the upper part of the engine after it is shut off. This includes the main gallery which feeds the piston oil jets. I don't think there is an issue with it. Typically when I pull the oil filter during a change, I get about 1/2 quart (1/2l) or more of oil dumping back into the pan. The anti drainback valve is definitely working.

IMHO, I think it's a combination of piston to cylinder wall tolerances when cold and the second or two it takes to build full oil pressure in the engine. Once the engine has started, the oil pressure rises and the piston expands very quickly... hence the noise disappears.

I should get our resident Infiniti mechanic to comment on this one. Although he does not work on these 4cyl motors, his insight into Nissan engines might give a better explanation.

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Re: Engine Noise (tapping)

Postby kerrton » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:40 pm

Temperatures are getting colder where I live so I thought I'd just bring this topic to the top of the list again for reference, as I'm sure new owners will be having concerns if they haven't heard this noise before.

I drove my Rogue this morning with temps right around the freezing mark and boy I forgot how persistent and loud the rattling/tapping can be. It rattled for a good 7 or 8 minutes before it started to taper off. During this period I drove really slow becuase if you do try to step it down and increase rpms to say 2500-3000 the tapping increases in volume and speed, it makes me nervous....but Philip has done a great job giving us a technical explanation to explain this noise which is really nice for reassurance.

After 10 minutes max the engine is very quiet and sounds just like it did all spring/summer.

Thanks again Phil.

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Re: Engine Noise (tapping)

Postby UncleZhou » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:36 pm

I have the same problem. Although it is a brand new 2010 but sounds like my 1997 Mazda 626. Once in a while it soars like crazy when I crank it. I also find another problem: for the first time in the morning especially in cold weather when I back out of the drive way and after shifting to to D driving for a short distance I hear a "Click" underneath . Wierd.

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Re: Engine Noise (tapping)

Postby philipa_240sx » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:50 pm

UncleZhou,

The noise is common to these engines. Nothing we can do about it. I have driven a combined 211,000mi (353,000km) on two Nissan's with this engines. The noise never goes away, and I have never had any engine damage because of it.

As for the click when moving, a few possibilities:

1) ABS self check
2) AWD noises (normal)

Both are normal and common to many other makes.

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Re: Engine Noise (tapping)

Postby kerrton » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:12 am

when I back out of the drive way and after shifting to to D driving for a short distance I hear a "Click" underneath . Wierd.
This is almost certainly the ABS self check, I agree if you don't know what it is it sounds bad, but it's normal and only happens once each time right after you start it up and drive away.

Regarding the cold engine noise, I always accelerate and drive very slowly for the first 5 minutes if I can because I can't stand the rattling noise. It doesn't take long for the engine to warm up enough for the noise to subside however. If your noise doesn't subside then that could be a problem but if it's only when cold then I think you're operating within design spec.

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Re: Engine Noise (tapping)

Postby UncleZhou » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:10 pm

kerrton wrote:
when I back out of the drive way and after shifting to to D driving for a short distance I hear a "Click" underneath . Wierd.
This is almost certainly the ABS self check, I agree if you don't know what it is it sounds bad, but it's normal and only happens once each time right after you start it up and drive away.

Regarding the cold engine noise, I always accelerate and drive very slowly for the first 5 minutes if I can because I can't stand the rattling noise. It doesn't take long for the engine to warm up enough for the noise to subside however. If your noise doesn't subside then that could be a problem but if it's only when cold then I think you're operating within design spec.
Thanks!

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Re: Engine Noise (tapping)

Postby kerrton » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:58 pm

philipa_240sx wrote:I have to correct my earlier statement.

The QR25DE has piston oil jets which lubricate the cylinder walls, wrist pin, and aids in piston cooling. This is addition to the splashing of oil by the crank. .
I was just reading an article regarding some new engines from Nissan competitors at the Toronto Auto Show and they are raving about their new engine technology (lots of power and efficiency etc.), and in particular they seem very proud of the fact that they've got "race-inspired technology including piston cooling jets...".

Apparently piston cooling jets are not standard features on most modern engines, however our Rogue QR25 engine has had this technology since at least 2008.....interesting.

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Re: Engine Noise (tapping)

Postby philipa_240sx » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:01 pm

Actually, Nissan has used piston oil jets/squirters for years. They were featured on the KA24DE (predecessor to the QR25DE) as early as 1991. I'm sure there are a few other Nissan motors out there with this technology.

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Engine Rattle on startup.

Postby gateway » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:36 pm

Have a 2010 Rogue, bought brand new, and rattles for 2 seconds on startup. Has done it since brand new. Dealer cannot reproduce condition - and was also told that this is normal. The noise is a distinct metal to metal contact. Souns like a collapsed hydraulic lifter; but I know there are none in this engine. Has anyone managed to get a video of this? I try to catch mine every morning but it only happens when I don't have my camera with me. I am extremely unhappy with the nissan brand.

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Re: Engine Rattle on startup.

Postby kerrton » Tue May 01, 2012 7:26 am

Hi there, this topic has been discussed quite a bit and it has been one that I've been concerned with in the past shortly after purchasing my 2008, but since then have realized that the noises my engine exhibits are normal.

I don't know how severe your rattle noise is, but basically this QR25DE engine is quite noisy when cold, mainly due to the lack of hydrualic lifters, instead the QR uses shim-type lifters that do not automatically adjust to temperature extremes so you will definately get a bit of rattle with cold outside temps, particularly at startup. The direct acting valve train can be noisy but the advantage is this engine should be very reliable and bullet proof over the long haul. The QR also has a very long stroke and large bore, at 2.5 L displacement most engine builders will tell you that this is getting up there in size which always leads to more noise than with a similarly sized V6 - the large 4-cylinder will always make more noise than a small V6.

The good news is this engine appears to have been perfected from a performance and durability perspective, it includes piston oil jets which should always ensure adequate lubrication and long engine life. There are two good existing threads on this, give it a read and try to decide if your startup noise is on par with what other owners have reported, or if yours is slightly different and perhaps cause for concern and another trip to the dealer:

engine-noise-tapping-t392210.html

some-tech-questions-about-the-rogue-t283826.html

Good luck and let us know what you think.

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Re: Engine Rattle on startup.

Postby Rogue One » Tue May 01, 2012 7:34 am

Uber Moerato ImStricken has an excellent write up on this elsewhwere, but I don't know if he'll let me post it as it's from another forum...

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Re: Engine Rattle on startup.

Postby ImStricken06 » Tue May 01, 2012 7:41 am

gateway wrote:Have a 2010 Rogue, bought brand new, and rattles for 2 seconds on startup. Has done it since brand new. Dealer cannot reproduce condition - and was also told that this is normal. The noise is a distinct metal to metal contact. Souns like a collapsed hydraulic lifter; but I know there are none in this engine. Has anyone managed to get a video of this? I try to catch mine every morning but it only happens when I don't have my camera with me. I am extremely unhappy with the nissan brand.
Nissan Engines make 2 Noises: the 1-2second rattle upon start-up -&- the tapping you hear for about 1-5minutes upon initial warmup when its cold outside. i will describe both noises for you:

Initial Start-up (1-2seconds) Rattle:
This is Totally Normal. Nissan engines use oil as the hydraulic pressure to adjust the cam chain tensioner. it takes a second or 2 in the initial start up to build the oil pressure up in order to bring the chain tension under the correct tension to prevent the chain slap that you are hearing. This also happens on Yamaha engines, and many other engines that use this type of timing chain system.

If you dont like timing chains, feel free to go buy a volkswagon or acura/honda or similar car that uses flimsy rubber timing belts and costs over $1,000 every 50,000miles to replace. that random rattle is the pay-off for the expensive out-dated timing belts. more and more engines use timing chains now a days. these tensioning systems are too are a wear item- but i dont see this going before 150,000miles IF PROPER OIL CHANGES WERE SCHEDULED. check your oil level to make sure its not low(thus the reason for chatter to begin with) and make sure its not getting to crazy. otherwise chain chatter upon start-up is normal.

wrong engine, i know- but still a nissan nonetheless.
please see the TENSION ARM and see how it places tension on the chain WHICH IS TURNING THE IDLER SPROCKET(upper one).
Image




Warm-Up 1-5 Minutes Tapping (commonly refereed to a knocking or slapping type of noise):
This kinda sounds like banging a spoon on a coconut = this is called 'piston slap'. Some mechanics see this as sign of a worn engine, but in our case of the Rogue it's due to the engine design and not wear/tear. This is common also on many engines if this is how the engine was designed- which in our case, our engine was designed for expanding - so its normal. (but this also happens when the engine is worn as parts reduce in size, and cause constant piston slap) how do you know the difference? ours goes away once the engine is warm = it was designed this way and is normal. LET ME EXPLAIN.
As Kerrton stated; our engine(QR25DE) is a very long stroke, 4 cyl engine. That combined with the short piston connecting rod design produces the piston slap you are hearing. The piston rings sit higher on the piston to further seal off any carbons inside the combustion chamber to further reduce lost power. After the engine warms up, the piston expands inside its cylinder and creates a tighter "seal" so to say and no longer clicks its skirt against the cylinder wall.
If the clicking you hear would NEVER go away - even after reaching operating temps = then you have a worn piston. but since ours goes away after operating temps are achieved; its a normal design. THIS IS WHY I PREACH TO NOT DRIVE THE CAR FOR AT LEAST 3-5MINS WHEN BELOW 40DEGREES.(earth friendly hippies dont want you to idle, but i dont care. if the seal is not achieved, combustion gases sneak past the rings/piston and into my oil)

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Re: Engine Rattle on startup.

Postby ImStricken06 » Tue May 01, 2012 7:44 am

Rogue One wrote:Uber Moerato ImStricken has an excellent write up on this elsewhwere, but I don't know if he'll let me post it as it's from another forum...
we think alike ;)

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Re: Engine Rattle on startup.

Postby kerrton » Tue May 01, 2012 8:15 am

That is some very good tech info, very well done and much appreciated!

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Re: Engine Rattle on startup.

Postby ImStricken06 » Tue May 01, 2012 8:18 am

kerrton wrote:That is some very good tech info, very well done and much appreciated!
thank you sir :) :woot:

HEY OP: if you have any questions, please feel free to ask away. if you want = post a video of the noise via YouTube.
PS: :welcome: to NICO!
also i linked this thread to this location: Image

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Re: Engine Rattle on startup.

Postby Rogue One » Tue May 01, 2012 8:32 am

gateway wrote:Have a 2010 Rogue, bought brand new, and rattles for 2 seconds on startup. Has done it since brand new. Dealer cannot reproduce condition - and was also told that this is normal. The noise is a distinct metal to metal contact. Souns like a collapsed hydraulic lifter; but I know there are none in this engine. Has anyone managed to get a video of this? I try to catch mine every morning but it only happens when I don't have my camera with me. I am extremely unhappy with the nissan brand.
ImStricken's description is spot on. And for the record, the noise is not limited to Nissan vehicles, but IMO just a tad more pronounced. If you can't give the engine a minute or two to warm up on really cold days, just keep the rpm's low for the first 2~3 miles.

Is this the reason for your unhappiness with NISSAN? I suppose you could get a Ford, then you'd only have to worry about it spontaneously bursting into flames http://www.florida-productliability.com ... ealership/
http://www.naplesnews.com/photos/galler ... ples-park/

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Re: Engine Rattle on startup.

Postby ImStricken06 » Tue May 01, 2012 8:41 am

a friend of mine 'wanted' a new acura SUV and after me telling her they have a SOHC that is belt driven; and placing a phone call to the dealer to ask how much the service is & how often = the $1,050(approx every 60,000miles) made her nauseous lol

nissan has this chain chatter in EVERY single engine. iv had it in my maxima, altima, etc and all of which driven over 160,000miles without any trouble from the CCTS(cam chain tensioning system).
just keep an eye on your oil levels(like in any engine) to make sure there is no reduction in oil level. since this noise is a sign of low oil pressure(upon start up - like in any engine) - its also a good indicator of low oil(if its happening ALL the time and during driving)

or you can buy that acura and not know or hear whats going on - and eventually snap your belt at 70thousand miles and cause catastrophic engine failure when your valve train stops moving but the pistons dont = and cause the two system to blast into one another.

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Re: Engine Rattle on startup.

Postby gateway » Tue May 01, 2012 4:23 pm

thank you for all your info.


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