102mm Throttle body

[N/A Q45]

Has anyone done this yet on the Q or am I the first one?
Big improvement form the 83mm ID stock TB, can really feel it past 5500rpm and I am sure once I get the cams set and exhaust finished it will be even stronger.

[elwesso]

So this should put you in the low 12's by now, right?

[qship96]

More horseshitt from the horseshitter.

[N/A Q45]

So this should put you in the low 12's by now, right?

Not really their little wes. But 2 or 3 thenths maybe is my guess.

Just rather funny how alot of you seem to think you have taken the Q to its maxx N/A without any real thought put into it no wonder the fastest is only a 14.2.. until april27th when the 1/4 opens I hope to break that time but maybe not. Will find out.

[N/A Q45]

More horseshitt from the horseshitter.

Could upload a pic but like I've said before could care less who believes me lol and most definitely not give a **** about what you think

[N/A Q45]

I would really hope that someone else other than me has noticed how the size and shape of the throttle body is restrictive...

[qship96]

I just love it how kids working on their GED think they are smarter than the professional engineers who designed the engine.

[goody90q45]

What engine has a 102mm TB? Are you making an adapter plate or is it bolt-on?

Not trying to be a hater but the opening on the intake is only about 80mm (measured on my spare plenum) so how will the flow increase and what gains can you expect from a 102mm TB?

[Kompresshun]

Not trying to be a hater but the opening on the intake is only about 80mm (measured on my spare plenum) so how will the flow increase and what gains can you expect from a 102mm TB?

Which is why the mod is pointless. Without port matching the intake, it will do absolutely nothing for you and even then it won't really give you a noticeable benefit unless you port match the plenum to the cylinder heads as well. You may "feel" it in the butt dyno, but it's doing nothing for your true power.

I knew plenty of people back when I was playing with muscle cars that were like "Yeah dude, I just got the 1,000mm throttle body". Oh yeah? Did you upgrade your intake and cylinder heads too? "Nah dude, why would I spend the money on all of that?". Congratulations, you just netted 0 hp

[jamesmost]

So this should put you in the low 12's by now, right?

Not really their little wes. But 2 or 3 thenths maybe is my guess.

Yooooo....I've been speaking to the Ladies and they say Little Wes ain't so Little....
Thy don't call him BIG DOG for nothing....

[N/A Q45]

Well now if people could just measure the plenum where it gets bigger not the throat where there stock TB bolts up to, you would notice that it is almost the perfect size

Just have to cut off the TB neck and attach the 102mm TB to the plenum. And there are two good benefits to this. #1 having a smaller plenum volume is better for lowend and a stable idle, #2 having such a large TB means it has more then enough flow to make up for the drop in plenum volume so it gains on the topend aswell.

The best thing to do would to just buy the 102mm TB spacer and have someone weld it onto the plenum, that's what I plan on doing I'm just seeing if it would work well and it seems to make a good difference so I'm going to get the flange and do it right since I am keeping this setup untill I make the plenum I have designed.



Sorry that some people get mad that they were not smart enough to try it before and I did. Like how noship96 keeps saying the word "kid" to try and help themselves sleep at night lol the only thing that best describes what noship96 needs is>

[IThaJ0kaI]

If the stock TB was that restrictive, why do SR, RB, KA guys all use them when making 600+hp?

[N/A Q45]

If the stock TB was that restrictive, why do SR, RB, KA guys all use them when making 600+hp?

Turbo is soo much different then N/A I am not even going to try and explain. .

But even a turbo/supercharged can benefit from it. There's lots of info out there where gt500s gain about 30whp just from the TB.

[PyR0NiAk]

If the stock TB was that restrictive, why do SR, RB, KA guys all use them when making 600+hp?

Turbo is soo much different then N/A I am not even going to try and explain. .

But even a turbo/supercharged can benefit from it. There's lots of info out there where gt500s gain about 30whp just from the TB.

Then dyno your car and prove your claims.

Hell, even a picture would at least show you're really doing what you say...

Dude, I just made my car do a barrel roll when I jumped the train tracks at 60mph. I just jerked the wheel really hard at just the right angle so that the car would do it perfectly.


At this point in time, my claim is just as valid as yours.

[qship96]

"Not really their little wes. But 2 or 3 thenths maybe is my guess."


And you wonder why most here think you are a stupid kid? ,really? 3rd graders have a better grasp of proper word usage and spelling.

[N/A Q45]

Then dyno your car and prove your claims.

Hell, even a picture would at least show you're really doing what you say...

Dude, I just made my car do a barrel roll when I jumped the train tracks at 60mph. I just jerked the wheel really hard at just the right angle so that the car would do it perfectly.


At this point in time, my claim is just as valid as yours.[/quote]

-------------------------------------


Just tell me how I can upload pics from my gallery, for some reason it won't let me just cut and paste..

[SanCarlosQ45]

Do you have photo-bucket? Whats not letting you cut or paste? With photobucket right click the gear on the right hand corner and select get links. After that just click on the link with the IMG brackets on either side. It should automatically copy to the clipboard so all you have to do is paste in the reply.

With photo-bucket they offer a url with the "[+img][-/img]" already around the url(without plus and minus):

so for example:
"[+IMG]http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab26 ... 0783_n.jpg[-/IMG]"

without quotes and plus and minus get you:



If this doesnt work post the links to the photo hosting website, ie the direct link to the album/picture from the address bar at the top of the browser such as:

http://s870.photobucket.com/user/SanCar ... ry/?page=1

I can, or anyone else, can post them. As far as the throttle body I cant see it flowing any higher than stock as far as CFM because your opening is still 80mm, the velocity may increase but that may be unlikely.

[N/A Q45]

http://m1278.photobucket.com/albumview/ ... 0&newest=1


http://m1278.photobucket.com/albumview/ ... 1&newest=1


See if this works, I can't seem to get the pic to display. .

[Infinitiguy19]

Thank you N/A Q45 you make NICO's Q45 section worth visiting. We haven't had this much action here in a while!

[elwesso]

I can, or anyone else, can post them. As far as the throttle body I cant see it flowing any higher than stock as far as CFM because your opening is still 80mm, the velocity may increase but that may be unlikely.

Actually it's the opposite. Volumetric flow rate (Q) is the product of area (A) and velocity (V).. Q=V*A.. Rearranging the equation for velocity, V=Q/A. The engine's flow rate at a given RPM does not change, therefore you can consider it constant. If you increase the area (A), you decrease the velocity..

Anyone who is beyond their second year in engineering school (with any basic fluid mechanics course) can tell you that if the volumetric flow rate (or mass flow rate) doesn't change, then changing the cross sectional area will not do anything but reduce velocity which can be quite detrimental. The only other effects you would have are frictional losses and losses in the plumbing, both of which are fairly insignificant in this case..

The *only* way to create more horsepower is to make the engine capable of bringing in more air.

[N/A Q45]

Thank you N/A Q45 you make NICO's Q45 section worth visiting. We haven't had this much action here in a while!

Lol I know eh

[N/A Q45]

I can, or anyone else, can post them. As far as the throttle body I cant see it flowing any higher than stock as far as CFM because your opening is still 80mm, the velocity may increase but that may be unlikely.

Actually it's the opposite. Volumetric flow rate (Q) is the product of area (A) and velocity (V).. Q=V*A.. Rearranging the equation for velocity, V=Q/A. The engine's flow rate at a given RPM does not change, therefore you can consider it constant. If you increase the area (A), you decrease the velocity..

Anyone who is beyond their second year in engineering school (with any basic fluid mechanics course) can tell you that if the volumetric flow rate (or mass flow rate) doesn't change, then changing the cross sectional area will not do anything but reduce velocity which can be quite detrimental. The only other effects you would have are frictional losses and losses in the plumbing, both of which are fairly insignificant in this case..

The *only* way to create more horsepower is to make the engine capable of bringing in more air.

Bringing in more air as in exhaust/cams/ -intake-


Just incase people don't know how a plenum works

> in alot of cases for most normal driving the stock plenum size is good for the lowend, idle. But the real problem is that the TB being smaller will have more velocity ( don't get me wrong velocity is a good thing to a point and the high velocity rushing in and hopefully slowing down builds pressure) and with the Qs design I don't believe that the air has enough time or room to slow down as the stock plenum is on the small size, it should be around 6.5L of volume for the best results. I don't know for sure how many liters the stock one is but I'm sure it's not 6.5L, so if the air can't slow down then it will try and run past the first runners more then the last ones in line, with the bigger TB and a little smaller plenum size you still keep the good idle and lowend while having more then enough air to supply at a lower velocity and all the runners would have a better chance of getting equal amounts of air, their will be less chance of it building pressure but I doubt the stock one has enough volume to build any anyways.

The TB seems to work pretty good and it doesn't feel like it dies off above 5700rpm like it did before with the stock TB.

[SanCarlosQ45]

Actually it's the opposite. Volumetric flow rate (Q) is the product of area (A) and velocity (V).. Q=V*A.. Rearranging the equation for velocity, V=Q/A. The engine's flow rate at a given RPM does not change, therefore you can consider it constant. If you increase the area (A), you decrease the velocity..

Anyone who is beyond their second year in engineering school (with any basic fluid mechanics course) can tell you that if the volumetric flow rate (or mass flow rate) doesn't change, then changing the cross sectional area will not do anything but reduce velocity which can be quite detrimental. The only other effects you would have are frictional losses and losses in the plumbing, both of which are fairly insignificant in this case..

The *only* way to create more horsepower is to make the engine capable of bringing in more air.

My mistake, this is why I'm Computer engineering, I hated Physics II . They dont require fluid mechanics for us, University of California Santa Cruz, they dont have Mech Eng.

Is that an LS3 throttle body?

[elwesso]

Bringing in more air as in exhaust/cams/ -intake-


Just incase people don't know how a plenum works

> in alot of cases for most normal driving the stock plenum size is good for the lowend, idle. But the real problem is that the TB being smaller will have more velocity ( don't get me wrong velocity is a good thing to a point and the high velocity rushing in and hopefully slowing down builds pressure) and with the Qs design I don't believe that the air has enough time or room to slow down as the stock plenum is on the small size, it should be around 6.5L of volume for the best results. I don't know for sure how many liters the stock one is but I'm sure it's not 6.5L, so if the air can't slow down then it will try and run past the first runners more then the last ones in line, with the bigger TB and a little smaller plenum size you still keep the good idle and lowend while having more then enough air to supply at a lower velocity and all the runners would have a better chance of getting equal amounts of air, their will be less chance of it building pressure but I doubt the stock one has enough volume to build any anyways.

The TB seems to work pretty good and it doesn't feel like it dies off above 5700rpm like it did before with the stock TB.

Here's what you're missing... If a given component is not a restriction in the first place, making it less of a restriction is not going to do anything!!!

At 7300 RPM, the VH45DE has the capability of flowing 580 CFM theoretical, assuming 100% volumetric efficiency.. Let's just assume that for kicks and giggles.. According to my math, a 90mm TB is capable of flowing about 1170 CFM.. That's not even HALF of what it's capable of, in a perfect world.. Since we know engines are not theoretically perfect, then this number goes down even more. The bottom line is, for a stock VH45 the stock TB will not gain any power. Period. End of discussion.

Any good engine builder always starts at the valve and works their way backwards. Any good engine builder knows that the biggest restriction in the intake system is the intake valve itself.... so it stands to reason that if you can decrease the restriction by increasing valve lift and/or valve duration, those are the next best places to go. Unless you're increasing the displacement of the engine, increasing the cross sectional area of any intake components will not gain you any power if it's not a restriction in the first place.

[Zer0_KooL]

Wes....Your brain. Its just so full of vast knowledge man lol. You never cease to educate me.

Bringing in more air as in exhaust/cams/ -intake-


Just incase people don't know how a plenum works

> in alot of cases for most normal driving the stock plenum size is good for the lowend, idle. But the real problem is that the TB being smaller will have more velocity ( don't get me wrong velocity is a good thing to a point and the high velocity rushing in and hopefully slowing down builds pressure) and with the Qs design I don't believe that the air has enough time or room to slow down as the stock plenum is on the small size, it should be around 6.5L of volume for the best results. I don't know for sure how many liters the stock one is but I'm sure it's not 6.5L, so if the air can't slow down then it will try and run past the first runners more then the last ones in line, with the bigger TB and a little smaller plenum size you still keep the good idle and lowend while having more then enough air to supply at a lower velocity and all the runners would have a better chance of getting equal amounts of air, their will be less chance of it building pressure but I doubt the stock one has enough volume to build any anyways.

The TB seems to work pretty good and it doesn't feel like it dies off above 5700rpm like it did before with the stock TB.

Here's what you're missing... If a given component is not a restriction in the first place, making it less of a restriction is not going to do anything!!!

At 7300 RPM, the VH45DE has the capability of flowing 580 CFM theoretical, assuming 100% volumetric efficiency.. Let's just assume that for kicks and giggles.. According to my math, a 90mm TB is capable of flowing about 1170 CFM.. That's not even HALF of what it's capable of, in a perfect world.. Since we know engines are not theoretically perfect, then this number goes down even more. The bottom line is, for a stock VH45 the stock TB will not gain any power. Period. End of discussion.

Any good engine builder always starts at the valve and works their way backwards. Any good engine builder knows that the biggest restriction in the intake system is the intake valve itself.... so it stands to reason that if you can decrease the restriction by increasing valve lift and/or valve duration, those are the next best places to go. Unless you're increasing the displacement of the engine, increasing the cross sectional area of any intake components will not gain you any power if it's not a restriction in the first place.

[N/A Q45]

Bringing in more air as in exhaust/cams/ -intake-


Just incase people don't know how a plenum works

> in alot of cases for most normal driving the stock plenum size is good for the lowend, idle. But the real problem is that the TB being smaller will have more velocity ( don't get me wrong velocity is a good thing to a point and the high velocity rushing in and hopefully slowing down builds pressure) and with the Qs design I don't believe that the air has enough time or room to slow down as the stock plenum is on the small size, it should be around 6.5L of volume for the best results. I don't know for sure how many liters the stock one is but I'm sure it's not 6.5L, so if the air can't slow down then it will try and run past the first runners more then the last ones in line, with the bigger TB and a little smaller plenum size you still keep the good idle and lowend while having more then enough air to supply at a lower velocity and all the runners would have a better chance of getting equal amounts of air, their will be less chance of it building pressure but I doubt the stock one has enough volume to build any anyways.

The TB seems to work pretty good and it doesn't feel like it dies off above 5700rpm like it did before with the stock TB.

Here's what you're missing... If a given component is not a restriction in the first place, making it less of a restriction is not going to do anything!!!

At 7300 RPM, the VH45DE has the capability of flowing 580 CFM theoretical, assuming 100% volumetric efficiency.. Let's just assume that for kicks and giggles.. According to my math, a 90mm TB is capable of flowing about 1170 CFM.. That's not even HALF of what it's capable of, in a perfect world.. Since we know engines are not theoretically perfect, then this number goes down even more. The bottom line is, for a stock VH45 the stock TB will not gain any power. Period. End of discussion.

Any good engine builder always starts at the valve and works their way backwards. Any good engine builder knows that the biggest restriction in the intake system is the intake valve itself.... so it stands to reason that if you can decrease the restriction by increasing valve lift and/or valve duration, those are the next best places to go. Unless you're increasing the displacement of the engine, increasing the cross sectional area of any intake components will not gain you any power if it's not a restriction in the first place.

You really didn't read my post did you.. ahh wes you're good for a laugh I'll give you that lol.
Please tell me and explain how having equal volume amounts of air in each runner is worse then having uneven volumes- please-- I'm dying to hear this.

If you can't understand I understand.

Any good builder starts with the most restrictions first, if it's the head then you start with the head, if it's the intake then you start with the intake..ect.
In the 94 vh45de's case the intake can't flow the amount the valves can as you want your valves to flow between 75-80% of the runner/ I would have to say by the intake valves size that runners hold the engine back not the head. So it should start with a better flowing intake to make the valves hold the engine back.

Ohh and this made me laugh almost- but did you just say give the valves more lift /duration before the intake or anything else? ?

That sounds about as smart as sitting in a garage with a car running-

If someone does that (and I have seen it) it can make you loose hp as you drop the velocity at the valve where it enters the combustion chanber, so now if the air slows down at that point you loose a few things like> #1 the higher velocity causes a better mixture of air and fuel, #2 the higher velocity helps keep hot spots cool when it rushes in it has a swirl effect and that reduces knock, better a-f mixing, #3 the higher velocity keeps trying to push air into the cylinders after BDC on the intake/ compression stroke, #4 gives you more power, #5 better mpg, #6 easier on the engine, #7 less chance of reversion..ect!

Just a stupid way to try and set up any engine. YOU ALWAYS WANT THE MOST VELOCITY AT THE VALVES AND INTO THE COMBUSTION CHAMBER-

You do not, I repeat DO NOT! Want the velocity to be high in the runners and slow down as it enters the combustion chamber- the fuel will fall out of the air flow and run down the wall and since the velocity is slower it won't be getting sucked back into the air stream the way it could it the velocity was high!


LOL now please show how the complete opposite is better as you have stated wes-

[elwesso]

The stock runners are equal length from the center line of the plenum to the valve. So, if the runners are equal length, how can one (or more) cylinders get unequal flow? Also, we would know if this is a problem if one or more cylinders have problems running lean with as many VH45's this forum has had and as many spark plugs as we've changed.. This is a problem on older small block chevy's and the typical fix is to change the intake manifold to an equal length setup (edelbrock or something). I don't think this is an issue with the VH45.

I don't have the numbers handy, but of some very thorough posts I've read show that the heads AND intake can flow considerably more air than 4.5L of displacement can breathe unless you're talking crazy modifications. I will look later, because I know there is actual measured flow data of the stock intake manifold and heads.

You say, "any good builder starts with the most restrictions first"... IF that's the case, why did you start with the TB? It's proven that the TB is not a significant restriction, so why start there? Seems to me like you just proved you're not a good engine builder? In all fairness though, a lot of what you're saying is true, but I don't think it applies here. Also, we've seen some pretty good gains from cam work in a VH45, I'll have to see if I can dig up those threads too..

I have yet to see any quantitative data proving my point otherwise, so until you show me some numbers I believe my point stands. All of the "data" you've displayed is qualitative and therefore irrelevant at this level of detail.

[qship96]

My question is why he wastes so much time and effort trying to make an old heavy obsolete 4 door sedan "faster" instead of investing his time and money in a remedial spelling and composition class at the local community college? That would provide a lifetime of benefits......long after that heap of a car is sent to the crusher.

[N/A Q45]

The stock runners are equal length from the center line of the plenum to the valve. So, if the runners are equal length, how can one (or more) cylinders get unequal flow? Also, we would know if this is a problem if one or more cylinders have problems running lean with as many VH45's this forum has had and as many spark plugs as we've changed.. This is a problem on older small block chevy's and the typical fix is to change the intake manifold to an equal length setup (edelbrock or something). I don't think this is an issue with the VH45.

I don't have the numbers handy, but of some very thorough posts I've read show that the heads AND intake can flow considerably more air than 4.5L of displacement can breathe unless you're talking crazy modifications. I will look later, because I know there is actual measured flow data of the stock intake manifold and heads.

You say, "any good builder starts with the most restrictions first"... IF that's the case, why did you start with the TB? It's proven that the TB is not a significant restriction, so why start there? Seems to me like you just proved you're not a good engine builder? In all fairness though, a lot of what you're saying is true, but I don't think it applies here. Also, we've seen some pretty good gains from cam work in a VH45, I'll have to see if I can dig up those threads too..

I have yet to see any quantitative data proving my point otherwise, so until you show me some numbers I believe my point stands. All of the "data" you've displayed is qualitative and therefore irrelevant at this level of detail.

Wes can you just go look at a flow chart that shows how intakes that even are equal runner lengths can have problems.. like I said the stock plenum isn't big enough to give the air time to slow down with the stock 83mm TB so if it can't slow down and build pressure it will more or less blow right buy the right banks runners more then with the 102mm TB.

And I didn't really start with the TB, have a few other things done but that doesn't matter. I bought it for the intake I want to build but prob won't get around to it for awhile so I thought I'd just see if it made any difference from the stock one. And I am pretty sure it did. I'm not talking like 50hp or anything lol but it did make a difference on top.

It would be great if you could find some flow data, would be interesting to look at w.e you can find on that.

[N/A Q45]

My question is why he wastes so much time and effort trying to make an old heavy obsolete 4 door sedan "faster" instead of investing his time and money in a remedial spelling and composition class at the local community college? That would provide a lifetime of benefits......long after that heap of a car is sent to the crusher.

Your 2cents that isn't worth one does make me feel better to know it helps you sleep at night