Your Carbon Ration Card

[audtatious]

There are a lot of potential solutions out there. The problem comes with the cost of the change and the impact to individuals and the economy. We simply can't change overnight from using dino products. Alternatives that work well en-masse will impact the poor and further alienate the rich from poor (middle class would shrink even more) due to cost. As technology increases and infrastructure is slowly built up for these alternative products then the impact is far less, but that will take quite a bit of time.

From an energy/power perspective, current coal plants can be converted to "clean coal" technology or simply be replaced by nuclear energy. Both will take time to achieve as well.

[WDRacing]

I follow...

I just think the Gov could assist in flex fuel cng conversions right now. You can't tell we aren't wasting money on some ear mark or Mars exploration that could otherwise be put into flex fuel technology. Hell, you don't even need the tech, it's here already. We just need the states to get onboard by making the inspection stations and regulations on par with 2008.

In reality we need cheaper cars that get better mileage...Europe has been doing it for 15 years. Hybrids are friggin expensive

I was comparing cost ratio's and it would take 9 years in fuel savings for the additional charge of a hybrid to equal out not driving my old *** K5 Blazer. But that old girl is easy to convert to CNG, parts are like $800.

[mtcookson]

So CNG would have to be the answer unless we figured a better way to use the MEthane

Natural gas is methane, well at least is mostly composed of methane.

The article on Wiki states:

"Natural gas is a gaseous fossil fuel consisting primarily of methane but including significant quantities of ethane, propane, butane, and pentane—heavier hydrocarbons removed prior to use as a consumer fuel —as well as carbon dioxide, nitrogen, helium and hydrogen sulfide."

One nice thing about natural gas is that you likely already have it at your house... so if you wanted to do the conversion you could fill up at your house. The main problem comes when you want/need to travel. As far as travel goes, propane seems like it would be a slightly better choice as far as immediate availability... but still no where near what would be needed to make it a viable replacement for gasoline.

[audtatious]

Europe does it by selling tiny cars. Hell, lots of their roads in cities can hardly support a full-sized sedan. They also have quite a bit of massive-transit infrastructure that is not plausible in the majority of the US.

With the suburban livestyle we have it is quite difficult to implement the majority of what Europe is doing. That pushes us back to utilizing a viable resourse for cheap transportation. While hybrid and other technologies are a plus, you are correct that they are expensive and the majority of "poor" simply can't afford them at this point. Supply and demand keeps them out of reach. In the future, prices will drop as the technology ramps up more but that is going to take a considerable amount of time to accomplish. Until then, we don't have a stop-gap resourse other than continuing to utilize dino without pushing our economy over a cliff.

[audtatious]

One nice thing about natural gas is that you likely already have it at your house... so if you wanted to do the conversion you could fill up at your house. The main problem comes when you want/need to travel. As far as travel goes, propane seems like it would be a slightly better choice as far as immediate availability... but still no where near what would be needed to make it a viable replacement for gasoline.

From a fuel perspective, what is the comparison between utilizing propane (or another natural gas mix) and gasoline? We know that 1 gallon of gas in a combustion engine will give us X mpg at X dollars. Also, what is the viability of even accumulating enough of this gas to be a viable automotive fuel source to replace gasoline?

[mtcookson]

The Kyoto agreement would cool the Earth by .04 C by the year 2100. That's Four Hundredths of a degree Celsius in 100 yrs.

Ahh... now that makes a little more sense as that's 32.072° F. Luckily I'll be dead by that time as a -20° to -30° winter in Kansas would most definitely suck. The 50° to 60° summers might be ok... though I don't think fishing and swimming would probably be all that great. Luckily I don't like to swim but fishing on the other hand....

One trillion+ dollars to freeze my *** off... that sounds like a real winner.

[mtcookson]

From a fuel perspective, what is the comparison between utilizing propane (or another natural gas mix) and gasoline? We know that 1 gallon of gas in a combustion engine will give us X mpg at X dollars. Also, what is the viability of even accumulating enough of this gas to be a viable automotive fuel source to replace gasoline?

I can tell you that leaving the engine stock will likely make it worse... but, since propane and natural gas have a higher octane rating, you can modify the engine to get better fuel economy which should get it close to or probably surpass gas as far as cost per mile... kind of like how diesel works. Up the compression of the engine due to the higher octane making it more efficient.

One problem I read about with propane though, supposedly due to the way the propane leaves the bottle it can actually reduce in octane as it gets closer to being empty so if you tune near the edge... it could be a bit dangerous.

[audtatious]

I was more talking about new vehicles with propane engines from the factory, not modifying existing vehicles. Step-forward approach.

[smockers83]

Ahh... now that makes a little more sense as that's 32.072° F. Luckily I'll be dead by that time as a -20° to -30° winter in Kansas would most definitely suck. The 50° to 60° summers might be ok... though I don't think fishing and swimming would probably be all that great. Luckily I don't like to swim but fishing on the other hand....

One trillion+ dollars to freeze my *** off... that sounds like a real winner.

I think you misunderstood. It would cool off by .04 degrees C, not to .04 degrees C.

[mtcookson]

The release of methane, I feel would only happen if there were a car accident. However, I wonder how many gas tanks on cars today are damaged due to accidents? I'm sure if there was a sure switch to methane and with today's material engineering, a tank could be easily engineered to withstand crash forces.

Was going to reply to this one but forgot. You also have to remember there are somewhat fragile fuel lines and that if methane were used, it would likely be compressed meaning the smallest little leak would likely deplete the entire tank.

I was more talking about new vehicles with propane engines from the factory, not modifying existing vehicles. Step-forward approach.

Looking at the Honda Civic GX natural gas vehicle, it is equipped with a 1.8 liter SOHC i-VTEC I4, running a 12.5:1 compression ratio, making 113 hp @ 6300 RPM and 109 tq @ 4300 RPM, and it gets 24 mph city and 36 mph highway using a 5-speed auto.

(The standard Civic has what seems to be the same I4 with 10.5:1 compression ratio, making 140 hp @ 6300 RPM and 128 tq @ 4300 rpm, and with the 5-speed auto gets 25 mpg city and 36 mpg highway).

Now, as far as cost goes I haven't found a good number for the cost of a gallon of natural gas but I did find that say if diesel were 3.92 per gallon it would be the equivalent of 27.50 per MMBTU. I also found another that stated that at $135.88 per barrel for oil it is the equivalent of $23.43 per MMBTU. Last week natural gas averaged about 11.27 per MMBTU so its a little less than half. So, I guess you could say CNG should be around $2 a gallon if gas is around or over $4 a gallon.

Price per mile:36 mpg @ $2 per gallon is $7236 mpg @ $4 per gallon is $144

I think I got the numbers right...

So, comparing the two Civics, you get more power with one and the same fuel economy but at double the fuel cost. Still though, I think they could push that CNG engine a little harder to make similar power and should be able to retain a level of fuel economy. Since the cost of CNG is quite a bit lower, one could actually sacrifice a bit of fuel economy for performance if need be... I bet Honda had to settle with those power numbers so that they could get those fuel economy numbers to meet economy regulations.

The CNG gas tank holds 8.3 gallons and the standard Civic can hold 13.2 gallons of fuel.

I think you misunderstood. It would cool off by .04 degrees C, not to .04 degrees C.

Nope, I understood... well, maybe. It depends if they're talking about an average temperature, which they probably are. If not, then if it cools by .04° C that means it is cooled by 32.072° F. Say we have an 80° day in the summer here and in 100 years it is 32 degrees cooler, that makes the 80 degree day a 48 degree day... in the summer.

If its an average, the drop won't be quite that drastic... but still likely noticeable.

[audtatious]

Nope, I understood... well, maybe. It depends if they're talking about an average temperature, which they probably are. If not, then if it cools by .04° C that means it is cooled by 32.072° F. Say we have an 80° day in the summer here and in 100 years it is 32 degrees cooler, that makes the 80 degree day a 48 degree day... in the summer.

If its an average, the drop won't be quite that drastic... but still likely noticeable.

That's not what he means (I don't think). Let's say today it is 32 degrees celcius average and in 100 years it cools by -.04 celcius. That means the average temp is now 31.96 degrees celcius. So, for trillions of dollars we have "possibly" lowered the overall temperature from 89.6 F to 89.528 F. That assumes that we are the cause of global warming and there are no other environmental variable like sun spots nor solar radiation and such.

Makes much financial sence.....

[smockers83]

Nope, I understood... well, maybe. It depends if they're talking about an average temperature, which they probably are. If not, then if it cools by .04° C that means it is cooled by 32.072° F. Say we have an 80° day in the summer here and in 100 years it is 32 degrees cooler, that makes the 80 degree day a 48 degree day... in the summer.

If its an average, the drop won't be quite that drastic... but still likely noticeable.

No, you didn't and you still don't. Have you looked at a thermometer lately with both C and F? Go look at one and come back. Or grab a calculator and start converting some temperatures.

That's not what he means (I don't think). Let's say today it is 32 degrees celcius average and in 100 years it cools by -.04 celcius. That means the average temp is now 31.96 degrees celcius. So, for trillions of dollars we have "possibly" lowered the overall temperature from 89.6 F to 89.528 F. That assumes that we are the cause of global warming and there are no other environmental variable like sun spots nor solar radiation and such.

Makes much financial sence.....

That's more like it.