Your Carbon Ration Card

[audtatious]

While American politicians mull a carbon cap-and-trade system for industry, our British cousins are already contemplating the next step: personal CO2 rations.

A Parliamentary committee in May proposed giving all British adults "carbon allowances" that they would be required to spend – along with, you know, real money – when buying gasoline, airline tickets, electricity or natural gas. Britons who wanted more credits than they were issued could try to buy them – again, with real money – from those who hadn't spent their allotment. All of this is supposed to give people a financial incentive to reduce energy consumption and thus their carbon "footprint."

The Labour government, already in a precarious political state, isn't dumb enough to support the rationing plan, which Environment Minister Hilary Benn calls "ahead of its time." Instead, it favors a climate-change bill that Parliament is on the verge of passing that would lay much of the necessary groundwork. But eco-eager Britons don't have to wait for Westminster. A private test program for personal cap-and-trade began recently with 1,000 volunteers keeping tabs of their gasoline use.

It would cost a country like Britain billions of dollars a year to run a personal cap-and-trade system nationwide, but set that aside. War-time-like energy rations are a clear illustration of the extent to which environmentalists hope to control every aspect of modern life. Do you really want to blow much of your annual "ration" on that long carbon-spewing jet flight to Florida, or should you swap that summer AC for weekend drives in the country?

The global warmists want you to sacrifice for their cause. And the duration of their war on carbon will make the decade-and-a-half of British rationing during and after World War II seem like a fleeting moment. The pending climate-change bill calls for a 60% cut in carbon emissions from their 1990 levels by 2050. Once 2050 rolls around, who exactly will declare the end of hostilities?

The prospect of personal CO2 rations should debunk the idea that the cost of curbing carbon emissions would fall on the owners of dirty old factories. That notion was always a green herring: Like corporate taxes, the business costs of carbon reduction will be passed on to consumers. In that sense, we should be grateful to the Brits for showing us where this anticarbon crusade really ends up.

http://online.wsj.com/article/...looks

[rn79870]

Actually, that plan has some merit. The problem is that they are aiming it at the wrong target. If they aimed that at industry, it would make much more sense.

Here again, CA shines with its proposed plans for lowering emissions and decreased fuel consumption. Kudos to the 17 other states following suit.

[audtatious]

As I have stated before on numerous occasions is that the end result of any of these "systems" is a major impact on the individual. Current cap and trade systems in other countries are a failure and simply getting other people rich. Instead of actually fixing what they put in broken they are going to expand it to the individual instead. They are doing exactly what I said would happen.

Sorry, but if this were about pollution it would be one thing, instead it is about CO2 reduction to "save the planet" when CO2 is far from the problem itself.

[rn79870]

A major impact on individuals? Do you think that those individuals (collectively) are responsible for leaving a footprint that is arguably bigger than it needs to be? They are intent on reducing, not eliminating, CO2 emissions. Other than a PITA implementing and regulating the idea, how is the general idea such a bad thing?

[audtatious]

They are targeting CO2 (which we exhale and plants consume) as a pollution that is causing global warming. They are not putting these in place to lower pollution in a means to increase air quality. Simply targeting CO2 is a fools game that the environmentalists have pressed forth at the alter of the global warming Gods.

[HashiriyaS14]

That's retarded, they just need to TAX ENERGY!

Everyone else in the civilized world has like a 100% tax on most forms of energy, especially petroleum. That's the most efficient way to curb consumption.

I'd rather see a big hike in energy taxes (and have them spent on things that they weren't in the past), and then have a drop in income taxes.

Every gallon of gas sold should be providing SOME money to build more solar, wind, or nuclear. Whether you handle this in some privatized fashion or the govt does it, it needs to be happening.

Telling people that they're not allowed to do "x" or "y" in their personal lives is ridiculous over-administration. Just raise the cost of those activities and the invisible hand will sort if out for itself.

[mtcookson]

Taxing energy 100% would be the most efficient way to curb consumption... by putting the US into a depression. If not a depression it would at least severely screw up the economy. If they did get away with it... they would likely find that in doing so they would end up making less money as well due to a drastic drop in fuel sales. You would also likely see other impacts like riots everywhere. I know I would be a part of it.

[nismofly]

i can see it now

"so youve got 3 unmuffled cars with no emissions equipment left whatsoever....uh, yeah, just give us all your rations right now and well call it even"

[Frogdad11262]

Did you know Al Gore made 68 million last year on Global Warming selling carbon credits. Yet there is no proof that his company up held their side of the agreement. The company refused to hand over any documents to help their case. I'd believe in Global Warming too if I was him. So drink the koolaide pay congress and Big Al for carbon credits that you cannot prove were used to help the environment and feel good about yourself. After all it's not really about the environment it's about how good we feel.

POP question How much cooler will the Kyoto Agreement, if all parties sign, make the Earth?

[nismofly]

POP question How much cooler will the Kyoto Agreement, if all parties sign, make the Earth?

i dont know what all it would entail at a personal level, but if it means i have to run emissions crap, it could send us into a god damn ice age and i wouldnt care

[smockers83]

If they aimed this program at industry, it would have an effect but not that large of an effect. The biggest industry that emits carbon is the transportation industry. As for the 100% tax, obviously you can't implement it just like that, its something you grow gradually. The only real two ways right now to cap & reduce carbon emissions is to cut the use of fossil fuels and switch to cleaner fuels such as natural gas and nuclear energy. There is nothing wrong with nuclear energy, well there are, but its something worth looking into...France is something like 80% powered by nuclear power...nothing has happened to them yet. They're a little weird, but they've always been weird.

[audtatious]

This thread is about personal carbon cards and nothing to do directly with industry itself. Each person or family would be given so many credits based on the area they live in I guess as area depicts the amount of heat of A/C one would need in a year. The Gov would decide how far you should live from work, how far you would be allowed to travel for vacation, how big your house should be, how much heat and cooling you need and then give you a personal card based on those criteria. If you use more than that (which we all know would be relatively small anyway) then you will have to purchase additional credits from others who do not utilize their credits.

So, in my case, I live in decent sized home (for the area), so I would already be penalized for heating/cooling altho I have replaced my heater and A/C for high-efficiencly units within the last 2 years (and have newer windows to boot). If I choose to use A/C during spring time instead of keeping the windows open then I would effectively be paying someone else who chooses not to use the A/C. Granted, it's a personal choice but this can effectively be a redistribution of wealth. OR, we can follow what CA wants to do and put mandatory levels on our thermostats in which the state has overall approval of what your settings are and whether you can even use A/C at all. From a job perspective, I travel a lot. Due to that, I get further penalized because instead of a 20-minute commute each way 5 days a week I can actually put a couple thousand miles on my car in that timeframe. Thus, I am further penalized due to trying to make a good living.

The worse part of these systems is you are utilizing the Gov to "distribute" the penalty money and we all know that will go down a big black hole and there will be tons of corruption in the "system". Talk about socializm.

[MinisterofDOOM]

i dont know what all it would entail at a personal level, but if it means i have to run emissions crap, it could send us into a god damn ice age and i wouldnt care

Amen.

[rn79870]

i dont know what all it would entail at a personal level, but if it means i have to run emissions crap, it could send us into a god damn ice age and i wouldnt care

Unfortunitely it's not an ice age that would be coming, it would be a steamy, humid hot spell that would leave your car overheated and the steering wheel too hot to touch. It'd be line living in a sauna.

[mtcookson]

Unfortunitely it's not an ice age that would be coming, it would be a steamy, humid hot spell that would leave your car overheated and the steering wheel too hot to touch. It'd be line living in a sauna.

Maybe if there's a nuclear war, then yeah.

It at least won't be for another 10 years or so since we're going into a cooling period... which happens to be coinciding with the Sun being less active than the last few years.

Quote »The biggest industry that emits carbon is the transportation industry.[/quote]Which as told many times, has little effect on the "global warming".

Quote »cleaner fuels such as natural gas[/quote]Which is a more potent "greenhouse gas" than carbon dioxide.

Quote »POP question How much cooler will the Kyoto Agreement, if all parties sign, make the Earth?[/quote]From what I could find it looks like the drop would be around .05 degrees by 2050. Computer models show that cutting down all of the forests would drop the temperature .5 degrees by 2100...

[WDRacing]

The USA will never support personal carbon ration cards. If they were to ever try and pass a law that said you simply can't travel, can't drive and or can't do anything for that matter. The end result would be Anarchy...period dot.

Not only that, but you can BUY more rations for a fee...RIGHT so the rich can keep on doing what they want because they can afford to all the while getting even richer by charging us for said rations.

I as well as countless other Americans would practice our given right to "throw down the Government"...want another revolution? Tell people they can't do things in the name of the Global Warming issue it'll happen.

Here's an idea though, lets spend 87 Billion dollars finding out we have water on Mars rather then putting it towards the energy crisis.

The problem is that we have idiots mismanaging the finances of the this great country. Or else we'd already have solutions for most of our friggin major problems.

Peace I'm Out

[mtcookson]

want another revolution?

Just let me know when you're ready and I'll be signing up.

[rn79870]

The USA will never support personal carbon ration cards. If they were to ever try and pass a law that said you simply can't travel, can't drive and or can't do anything for that matter. The end result would be Anarchy...period dot.

Not only that, but you can BUY more rations for a fee...RIGHT so the rich can keep on doing what they want because they can afford to all the while getting even richer by charging us for said rations.

I as well as countless other Americans would practice our given right to "throw down the Government"...want another revolution? Tell people they can't do things in the name of the Global Warming issue it'll happen.

Here's an idea though, lets spend 87 Billion dollars finding out we have water on Mars rather then putting it towards the energy crisis.

The problem is that we have idiots mismanaging the finances of the this great country. Or else we'd already have solutions for most of our friggin major problems.

Peace I'm Out

And, to turn this political, McCain wants to further mismanage the energy crisis by eliminating the taxes on gasoline for the summer. I forget where he is planning on recapturing the money lost, but it is yet another example of why he lacks the "financial" experience necessary to run the country.

[audtatious]

Obama and Mac are idiots

Nuff said

[WDRacing]

Obama and Mac are idiots

Nuff said

I can agree with that. It pains me to actually have tp pick the better of two crappy options...yet again.

[smockers83]

Which as told many times, has little effect on the "global warming".

Well the point of cutting carbon emissions is to curb global warming, whether its real or not. So regardless, programs, if they want to be effective at cutting CO2 emissions need to go after transportation, whether at a personal or industry level.

Which is a more potent "greenhouse gas" than carbon dioxide.

Excuse me? Maybe raw, but when used as a fuel its much cleaner than gasoline or coal.

[mtcookson]

Well the point of cutting carbon emissions is to curb global warming, whether its real or not. So regardless, programs, if they want to be effective at cutting CO2 emissions need to go after transportation, whether at a personal or industry level.

That's the problem... the CO2 has too little of an effect on global warming to be the gas to target.

Quote »Excuse me? Maybe raw, but when used as a fuel its much cleaner than gasoline or coal.[/quote]It still releases carbon dioxide when burnt and as far as being more harmful, if/when use in vehicles think of the release of the gas in collisions, or from improper maintenance, or even filling station accidents/problems/whatever. Basically what I'm getting at is, if methane starts to become more mainstream to power vehicles it will also likely mean more methane will be released into the atmosphere than before due to various circumstances which, being more a more potent greenhouse gas, will eventually cause the same "issues" that people are bringing up with CO2.

It doesn't really bother me if we use natural gas though... my only problem with it is that its somewhat difficult to store as you pretty much have to store it compressed in its gaseous form for vehicles as getting to a liquid takes too low of a temperature meaning you don't get have a whole lot of it on board when driving. I believe there is a Honda that runs on natural gas and it only holds 8 gallons worth of it. Granted... it has a very high octane which means you could theoretically make the engine much more efficient than a gasoline engine by either heavily upping the compression or going with boost... but regardless I would kind of miss having a large supply like 16+ gallons to maximize travel time.

[Frogdad11262]

The Kyoto agreement would cool the Earth by .04 C by the year 2100. That's Four Hundredths of a degree Celsius in 100 yrs.

There are 160,000 glaciers in the world ony 79 have been studied in depth, less than 1% of ice has melted out of the ones studied. Antarctica is getting colder the ice thicker. If we haven't studied all the glaciers how do we know they are all melting?

So why the carbon ration card. We are evil, evil men.... and to make money. Go big Gov't.

[rn79870]

I think the current opinion is that we are in a general period of global warming, but currently, there is a small cycle of cooling. Overall though, the cycle is warming. Whether this is man made, or a natural event is up for debate.

[WDRacing]

Global warming definitely exists...no doubt about it.

There are ways and methods that exist right now today that can cut emissions from ALL vehicles driven on the road or flown in the air. By simply switching to a plentiful and already existing fuel. No not Ethanol, but CNG or actually Methane would be better. Propane burns 50% cleaner without even being filtered, same with methane. Methane is produced naturally from every single garbage dump in the world...in MASSIVE amounts. It has to be burned before it can be released into the air so we already have the ability to harness it.

We simply lack the infrastructure, but that's it. I can convert any car on Nico for about $3500 to run on both pump gas AND CNG only because methane isn't readily available. Flip a switch and run on propane, can't find a station to fill up at? Flip that switch again and run on regular unleaded.

Propane is already widely used in fleet vehicles...

It's a right now fix to a bad problem. Actually several problems...high oil prices and pollution control. Why are we not hearing about this being tested? Why aren't people made aware that something already exists that can lesson the cost of fuel and reduce our carbon footprint?

Yeah electric cars will be awesome. But propane can fuel the big polluters, like airliners and 18 wheelers.

I dunno...maybe I just get excited about having something readily available and ignored.

[smockers83]

WD, I do agree. And here's the very answer to your question. This guy is running ads on TV as if he were campaigning. When I saw it for the first time, I thought it was someone trying to get in the presidential race somehow, then someone into Congress but he's obviously from TX and I'm in MI so I can't vote for him. But he's not running, he's just proposing his plan.http://www.pickensplan.com/

[audtatious]

Global warming definitely exists...no doubt about it.

Absolutely. Man Made Global Warming is what I call BS on

There are ways and methods that exist right now today that can cut emissions from ALL vehicles driven on the road or flown in the air. By simply switching to a plentiful and already existing fuel. No not Ethanol, but CNG or actually Methane would be better. Propane burns 50% cleaner without even being filtered, same with methane. Methane is produced naturally from every single garbage dump in the world...in MASSIVE amounts. It has to be burned before it can be released into the air so we already have the ability to harness it.

As Mark mentioned, methane is a FAR worse gas than CO2 and it will never be approved for use in cars. Not gonna happen. Realize that R-12 was fine for the environment when it was it was contained in a system but they went ahead and banned it from use in cars due to the amount that was released by owners and such. The same would be true for methane.

[smockers83]

The release of methane, I feel would only happen if there were a car accident. However, I wonder how many gas tanks on cars today are damaged due to accidents? I'm sure if there was a sure switch to methane and with today's material engineering, a tank could be easily engineered to withstand crash forces.

[audtatious]

Dunno, but accidents would cause it, backyard mechanics, regular mechanics, stupidity, etc. I highly doubt the environmentalist movement would allow it other than the fact they want to keep the focus on CO2, just as they have ignored the water vapor that comes from hydrogen vehicles.

I'm far from being against new technology. We are just nowhere near doing a mass change of infrastructure that would help all forums of society.

[WDRacing]

Absolutely. Man Made Global Warming is what I call BS on

As Mark mentioned, methane is a FAR worse gas than CO2 and it will never be approved for use in cars. Not gonna happen. Realize that R-12 was fine for the environment when it was it was contained in a system but they went ahead and banned it from use in cars due to the amount that was released by owners and such. The same would be true for methane.

That makes sense to me...

So CNG would have to be the answer unless we figured a better way to use the MEthane, like more powerplants fueld by the burning of it which has to be done anyway before it is released in the air. I was leaning towards methane only because of how we generate it basically free since it's a byproduct of waste.

CNG is still a very viable today option.

I might also add then when you run CNG, you can probably go atleast 10,000 miles before changiung the oil. There isn't piston ring blow by with cng and it won't sludge the oil or collect in the head.