Worried that I got hosed, expert opinions needed

Post by **johnyQ** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

Today I was doing some cleanup on my sr20det (redtop) and noticed thick caked on black stuff (probably burnt oil) on the engine. Thinking this couldn't be good I inspect further.

I found what appears to be a high tempature silicone sealant spread over where the oil pan gasket and the gasket right above it are, which is now starting to peal off some. Here are pictures of this section of the motor:

Is this a sure sign of gasket failure? Is that sealant stuff a normal procedure or does it mean the guy who sold me the car was trying to cover this up?

Thanks.

Post by **PalmerWMD** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

From your description I wouldnt be all too worried.

Worst case you have a poorly repaired oil pan leak and/or front cover seal.Pretty minor compared to the probs some other guys have had with their SR's.

Fred..:thumbup

Post by **PalmerWMD** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

PS: Welcome to NICO!:jazz:

Post by **johnyQ** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

Thanks for the welcome.

some clarification and questions:

From the third picture down it kind of looks like the burnt oil is following that line. Is there a vertical gasket there?

If its just the oil pan, how does the oil burn off that high up?

is the second gasket from the bottem for the crankcase? From the last picture you can see this is where some fresh(er) oil is located.

Website · Post by **s13sr20chris** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

timing chain cover is the vertical "gasket". all nissan engines are assembled with lots of rtv. service rtv is orange and factory is grey. yours looks like aftermarket(auto parts store stuff). maybe it had a timing chain put in it. it may have been a sloppy seal jobby or just time and seepage. the less wet portion looks to me like it has been cleaned off before and then reaccumulated. like when i spray an oil leak down with brake klean and then it comes back. it did not look bad but its pretty simple to fix in an s13/s14.

Post by **PalmerWMD** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

Sorry I still cant see the pics just going of your texting.

Fred..

Post by **silkk** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

its no biggie

welcome to nico!

Post by **180fan** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

it's no biggie, as long as you follow the tightening order for the oil pan then no biggie.

Post by **johnyQ** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

180fan wrote:it's no biggie, as long as you follow the tightening order for the oil pan then no biggie.

It looks like a combination of the timing chain cover and the (what someone described as upper oil pan - same as crankcase?...man I'm a n00b at this car hah). My understanding now is there is no gasket its all RTV, and to just pull these off and redo them according to the manual?

I also noticed that there was slightly too much oil in it engine, as I just checked it (about a half inch over the fill line). would this be a source for this burnt oil?

and one last whine (sorry), while going over the car I noticed sludge could be found on the underbody following the driveline, any ideas?

Thanks, I really appreciate the help, this site is awesome!

Post by **Hijacker** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

the sludge as you call it is probably just road grime.

Post by **180fan** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

actually after having a second look at that, you may want to clean up the grime, it seems to be pretty strategically located right were there's supposed to be RTV between the front cover to the block. You could pop off the front cover, but you'd have to lift the motor up a few inches to pull the lower and upper oil pans, and pull the cams and sprockets to get to the few bolts that bolt through the head into the front cover from the top, there should be 2 up there. You could just clean up the grime and run RTV along there with your finger as a temporary thing. Also you may want to check on your front crank seal. It's not a biggie as long as you watch your oil and what not but first verify if you've got an oil leak by cleaning the front off first then watch for sludge in the same spots.

Website · Post by **s13sr20chris** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

the oil on the crossmember and driveline is just leakage that blew back while you were driving. i would suggest that you buy a couple cans of brake parts cleaner and hose that sucker down. once its all clean(mostly clean) you can check it every so often to see how long it takes to come back.

Post by **johnyQ** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

Will do, thanks for the great responses!

Post by **compression** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

The SR only has gaskets for the valve cover, head gasket, and the intake/exhaust manifolds. Everything else is silicone. Honda has a good sealant called honda-bond. It is grey in color good quality stuff, can get some from a honda dealer.Make sure you clean off ALL of the old silicone, and clean it thoroughly before putting it back together.

The driveline oil is probably leaking from your tailshaft seal. IF it comes back after you clean that area then the seal needs to be changed. This is the seal that goes around the driveshaft input shaft. It should be replaced, it is not that hard to do, if you can get to it easily.

THe SR has two "oil pans". THe small black square one made of steel (the one that is always dented) and the the main aluminum one. THe aluminum one is the one the small black one bolts to. It is a structural part of the engine and is quite a heavy duty piece.

While you are doing all this work, it may be a good time to replace the steel pan with a GReddy on, if you have $275 laying around.They are cast aluminum, are less prone to seepage, they hold more oil and have better baffling.good luck!

Website · Post by **s13sr20chris** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

Post by **msaskin** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

compression wrote:While you are doing all this work, it may be a good time to replace the steel pan with a GReddy on, if you have $275 laying around.They are cast aluminum, are less prone to seepage, they hold more oil and have better baffling.good luck!

I second that. I just spun a bearing at willow springs this past weekend and it more than likely would have been avoided with a baffled pan :-x

~matt

Post by **johnyQ** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

I cleaned up the motor yesterday, it looks nice and shiney now. Much harder to clean under the car, I bought some stronger cleaner and plan to attack with that tomorrow.

Also changed my transmission fluid, and drained out the overfilled engine oil (I think my idle smoothened out after that to be honest).

msaskin wrote:I second that. I just spun a bearing at willow springs this past weekend and it more than likely would have been avoided with a baffled pan :-x

~matt

Yikes. Did that occur purely from lateral loads in your opinion? This car is being built with the purpose of track biatch (obviously I need work on my mechanical skillset...at least I have been getting track experience w/ my wrx in the meantime) as it certainly won't win any beauty contests:oface

maybe a different oil pan is a requirement?

How long is RTV supposed to last? I know very little about it, but I noticed even the transmission case is put together using this stuff.

Post by **msaskin** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

Quote »Yikes. Did that occur purely from lateral loads in your opinion? [/quote]I would have to say yes. My oil pan is completely undented, and I was running just above the full mark with 15w50 mobil 1. The only thing I can attribute it to is "the bowl" as streets of willow springs.

It's a big banked ~200degree turn that you enter real high into it at redline in 2nd gear, late apex and throw it in third, then exit at probably 5-6000rpm in 3rd gear. There's also another fairly banked 2nd-3rd gear turn (turn 3??) near the beginning of the track. I can really only attribute it to those turns starving the motor of oil (and it just being a freak occurence, as I know a number of people who have been fine on the road course with the stock oil pan).

I'm going to be going with the greddy pan ($275 or so), which is well worth it if only for piece of mine.

I just pulled the oil pan this morning...lots of metal shavings on the bottom :thinker

~matt

Post by **PalmerWMD** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

JohnyQ and others,

If you intend to AutoX, a Greddy oil Pan is not an option but a must have mod.Just like a upgraded fuelpump is a must have ( among other things) if you runa lot of extra boost.There is a picture of an installed GreddyOil Pan in my members rides pics. I would link you guys but cant paste on this Gov't terminal.

So go to Members rides for "Palmerwmd" and look at the engine pic that shows the pan.Members rides link is a sticky in a couple forums, as well as listed on the left in our Forums pages.

The Greddy Pan features an expansion of oil capacity to 5 quarts and a great baffling system with little g foreces operated doors to pool your oil near the oil pick-up even during hard manuvering.

I got mine from sponsor optionimports.com ( banner on left) be sure to tell them you are from NICO for a small discount and some extra personal attention.

Likely the overfill condition you found was due to the previous owner being aware of the limitations of the stock oil pan and over filling for this reason.

A common practice among many SR owners.

Fred...

PS: Be VERY careful when installing one of these to not strip anything, this goes for the bolts to the block as well as the drainplug. Darinplug on a Greddy is gentle hand tighting.

Post by **PalmerWMD** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

Matt: Sorry about your misfortune..

Fred..

Post by **JJ240** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

By the first set of pictures it looks to me like your front main seal needs replacing. The oil leakage seems to be no higher than it could seep back if it were coming from the front main and from the front back. Pull your crank pulley off and look around. See if there is oil residue behind the pulley and inspect the seal itself.

Post by **charlotte240** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

Compression, not to jack the post, but would you go into a little more detail with the tailshaft seal issue? I changed my oil in my transmission before my swap. It's been about a thousand miles and now the synchros seem to be getting pissed (not to mention I heel/toe or downshift EVERY time I slow down). I looked under the car and there was clean oil on around the tailshaft seal. Should I be starting a new thread? If so, I'll move this.

Post by **msaskin** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

PalmerWMD wrote:Matt: Sorry about your misfortune..

Fred..

Thanks for the condolences.

I take it all in stride...cars are an expensive hobby, lest anyone forget. FWIW, I still managed to have a great weekend out @ the track despite destroying an engine. It also looks like I'll just be buying another longblock and parting my current bad one out for more than the new one will cost me

As much as I'd love to do a rebuild, it just doesn't make sense in my mind when I can get a new motor if something ever happens again and not have to spend money out of pocket! I'll be keeping my old block and possibly build it up on the side as $$ permits.

~matt

Website · Post by **s13sr20chris** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

charlotte240 wrote:Compression, not to jack the post, but would you go into a little more detail with the tailshaft seal issue? I changed my oil in my transmission before my swap. It's been about a thousand miles and now the synchros seem to be getting pissed (not to mention I heel/toe or downshift EVERY time I slow down). I looked under the car and there was clean oil on around the tailshaft seal. Should I be starting a new thread? If so, I'll move this.

my tailshaft seal leaks too. it think that must be common with the swaps(driveshaft maybe?). i intend to fix. i think your heel toe shifting may be the cause of your syncro wear.

Post by **charlotte240** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

Is there a seal that you can buy at the dealership or something to replace? Would you need to buy a whole transmission rebuild kit? Where can you get a manual rebuild kit? I've only seen autos........I want to get this fixed because I'm kinda done with my engine as far as performance and I just want to increase reliability now. My goal is something with some punch that is also reliable (I've got the punch already)

BTW anybody know where I can get one 370cc injector?

Post by **JJ240** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

http://www.sr20store.com

Website · Post by **s13sr20chris** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

yeah, the rear trans seal should be the same as the one on the ka trans. you can get it at the dealership. i need to pick one up myself.

Post by **PalmerWMD** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

Charlotte:

We have several NICO sponsors that carry those .Links are on the left.

Fred..

Post by **nismostate** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

heal and toe is use to keep syncros from wearing. only thing I can think of is if you are not doing it right. you must match up the rpm with the drivetrain so it doesn't have a pull of some kind. it should be a smooth downshift. if you downshift and that's it, that's a big no no. it'll wear down the syncros real bad from doing that consistently.

btw: the rear transmission seal must be a very common problem because mine is doing it too. wish i would of known that earlier because i would of changed it when the motor was out!:mad:

Post by **Hijacker** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:37 pm

rear transmission seals are easy to replace with the motor in the car

Worried that I got hosed, expert opinions needed

Worried that I got hosed, expert opinions needed

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