wont pass emissions!

[jpnissans13]

hey i have a 91 240sx ka24de stock motor with some headers and intake. and im from Delaware.

i didnt pass the emissions the HC( i think thats what its called) was 288 and the limit was 220 and the CO2 was 1.88% allowed limit was 1.2%

bad cat converter? i did changed plugs, wires put a new intake manifold gasket

any ideas that would help to reduce the numbers are appreciated

Thanks!!

[H8HONDA]

im an emissions tech in utah but the rules are all the same. it is not your cat. that controls the gas nox. i would check your timing. and do a fuel system cleaning i would use a product called seafoam. put it in your fuel and clean your intake system with it and see what happens. do this my finding a positive vacuume to suck it into the intake. do that and you should be good to go. and one more thing make sure the car is good and hot when you take it to get tested

[johnny5]

ok well unlike the guy above me, i am an inspetcion tech, well a mechanic with an inspection lisence. he did bring up some good points, id try what he said and if you still havent passed, change the cat out. it sounds like a bad cat to me, but its cheaper to tryin cleaning the motor with seafoam then to buy and have a new cat put in for low numbers like yours

[nothing]

Do you guys know if sea foaming through a vacuum will help clean the EGR? I'm getting a CEL for EGR function. Thanks for your help in advance.

[jpnissans13]

yea i've heard of the seafoam. well i have some kind of a aftermarket exaust kit too idk if that thing would let out more then a stock. well my guess.. it would.

ill seafoam it and update if it helped or not.

thanks for all the advice!!

[Cone Junky]

Sea Foam, a couple of full tanks of Chevron Supreme, and bring it in hot. I think your levels are close enough that this would work.BTW-the catalyst controls HC, CO, and NOx. NOx is just the most important these days.

No, SeaFoam will not clean your EGR indirectly. But I am sure it would make a great cleaner when you pull off the EGR and clean the ports manually with it.

[DJ_Sunrise]

2 tricks I've learned. 1 - skip the sea foam, its too expensive. Use windshield washer fluid instead, but in the same way as seafoam. Same effect. When carbon builds up on your pistons, it throws off the compression ratio Seafoam and windshield washer fluid will simply clean up the carbon on your pistons. Trick 2, take the air filter off.

Make sure you get a fresh oil change, and yes.. this can affect emissions.

-Bart

[H8HONDA]

oh and i just wanted to let you know that HC stands for hydrocarbon and that is unburned fuel thats why i told you its not the cat. like i said im an emissions tech i do this all day long. so somebody wana explain to me how replacing a cat helps burn fuel???????????? oh thats right it doesnt. now i have a 91 240 single cam ka and i have no o2 sensor and i removed the AIR system. mine still passes with flying colors. so start simple check timing, spark plug gap, change pcv valve, do an intake cleaning and try to find a way to clean your egr. i promise you it is not your cat.

[Cone Junky]

oh and i just wanted to let you know that HC stands for hydrocarbon and that is unburned fuel thats why i told you its not the cat. like i said im an emissions tech i do this all day long. so somebody wana explain to me how replacing a cat helps burn fuel???????????? oh thats right it doesnt. now i have a 91 240 single cam ka and i have no o2 sensor and i removed the AIR system. mine still passes with flying colors. so start simple check timing, spark plug gap, change pcv valve, do an intake cleaning and try to find a way to clean your egr. i promise you it is not your cat.

So you're an "emissions tech" and you don't understand the physics of a catalytic converter? Being that it's the base of all emissions sytems on modern cars, YOU should really know this.

The catalyst is a device used to store and release oxygen molecules so that it can change the molecular structure of the harmful emissions. Catalytic converters were used well before we even tested for NOx. For what? To control HC and CO.

It oxidizes unburnt hydrocarbons (HC) and changes it to carbon dioxide and water.It alsos oxidizes carbon monoxide into carbon dioxide.And then of course, it reduces NOx by converting it to nitrogen and oxygen.

You could have at least Google searched or opened one of your training manuals to verify that. So don't be such a d*ck next time.

As for washer fluid, it may work. I've heard of much crazier things. But...washer fluids are all over the map when it comes to chemical compounds. Do all or just some work? Either way, SeaFoam is $10-15. So a pretty small investment for a well known, well tested, and verifiably effective product.

[dc1984]

[H8HONDA]

lol ok here we a keyboard hard a** he calls himself cone junky. ok my 90 240sx had a BAD cat when i ran my emissions and my NOX was 3058 now with that BAD cat my HC was 119. and my CO2. was .5 so thats why i said its not his cat if a 4cyl car is letting 288ppm of unburned fuel out the tail pipe there is something wrong with some other part of the car. now who got OWNED. lol you think you know something but you looked it up on the hows it work website. lol you have no clue what your talking about. here is a lil more how stuff works for you. a cat may break down smaller amounts of fuel and convert them but when you have TOO MUCH fuel entering the cat over a period of time the elements and metals inside become saturated with fuel and the cat is no good. and i did not have to look that up. i knew that hahahaha. so again its not his cat

[dc1984]

i have a question 4 u. u told him that his cat wasnt the issue, but yet u still told him to make sure his car was "good and hot". why is that?

i only ask because ive always thought that people get that car hot before a smog test because that is when the cat works best. i guess what im asking is, why would u tell him that his cats not the problem and then give him advice to improve his cats performance?that is of course only if my knowledge of why u would heat ur car up before a smog test is accurate. maybe there is another reason that only an emissions tech would know that i dont

[dc1984]

oh and i just wanted to let you know that HC stands for hydrocarbon and that is unburned fuel thats why i told you its not the cat. like i said im an emissions tech i do this all day long. so somebody wana explain to me how replacing a cat helps burn fuel???????????? oh thats right it doesnt.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/...2.htmhow stuff works rocks, regardless of what u say

man i wish i was as good of an "emissions tech" as u are who deos this "all day"


Modified by dc1984 at 3:17 PM 3/8/2009

[H8HONDA]

well i can see im dealing with people that dont know emissions at all. the the 02 sensor also works at its best when hot. if you look at the catalyst some of them say HO2 wich means heated o2 sensor. and the reason i told him that is because if he fixes all the other stuff that is worng and brings the car in cold it will FAIL again even tho everything is fine because the cat wasnt hot. do you people think before you ask questions?

[1KleenS13]

well i can see im dealing with people that dont know emissions at all. the the 02 sensor also works at its best when hot. if you look at the catalyst some of them say HO2 wich means heated o2 sensor. and the reason i told him that is because if he fixes all the other stuff that is worng and brings the car in cold it will FAIL again even tho everything is fine because the cat wasnt hot. do you people think before you ask questions?

Dont argue with retards bud, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.........Everytime. Just let it go, be the bigger man.

[dc1984]

oh and i just wanted to let you know that HC stands for hydrocarbon and that is unburned fuel thats why i told you its not the cat. like i said im an emissions tech i do this all day long. so somebody wana explain to me how replacing a cat helps burn fuel???????????? oh thats right it doesnt.

do u think before u post

YOU claim that a cat does NOT reduce HC. every website that i look at that talks about a cat says otherwise. heres two more right off the bat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter

http://www.catalyticconverter.org/

can u show me any respecible sites that backup your claim that cats do NOT reduce HC?

u say that the cat is for the nox(which it does help reduce that too). but when cone junky said that cats were being used way before they were testing for nox, he wasnt lying. we started using cats in 1975. in the state of california, nox was not a part of smog testing until 1998. so no, it isnt just for nox.

what happend here is simple. u made a **** comment about cone junkies first reply to this thread for no reason, and since u decided to be a turd for no apperent reason, i decided to nitpick at ur incorrect statement when u decided to use ur almighty title as an "emissions tech" and "i do this all day long" when u stated that cats do not reduce HC.and its not like u said it and made a mistake and said something like "ohh my bad". that woulda been no problem. but no, u had to jump down someones throat for making a correction to ur post(and he wasnt even being rude about it, he even agreed with half of what u said)

nobody here is claiming that u r wrong when u say that his timing and plug gap and whatnot will help him pass, i agree with u there, but thats not what this is about. to me, its about u being an egotistical turd to somebody for no reason, and then being wrong about part of it on top of everything.

[H8HONDA]

if you people would learn to read that would be great. i said hc is unburned fuel wich is true. then i said replacing a cat will not help burn fuel also true. i did not say that replacing the cat would not lower hc. but what i was getting at is that a good running 240 should be between 100 and 150ppm. 288 is way to high and even if he did replace the cat having that much hc running through the cat will ruin it and he could end up in the same spot next year. that is why i said do all the other stuff first. the reason his hc is that high is due to incomplete combustion not the cat. thats all i was trying to say.

[scottydog]

Do you guys know if sea foaming through a vacuum will help clean the EGR? I'm getting a CEL for EGR function. Thanks for your help in advance.

Check for vacuum line cracks in the EGR system, and the line between the BPT valve and the EGR valve. The bpt valve can also go bad. sea foam won't fix this.

[airman86]

seafoam is $10-15? wow, here for a pint it's like maybe $6...third into crankcase, third into fuel tank, and third into the brake booster line. seafoam is good, don't skip out on it.

h8honda is right, so stop flaming him, a cat can only get rid of so much HC. a new cat MAY help but 288ppm is pretty high anyways.

if you have that much unburned fuel, make sure it's getting adequate air (clogged air filter) and make sure timing is spot-on.

[dc1984]

a cat can only get rid of so much HC.

and that is the whole point to this, that the cat wil get rid of "some". i never claimed it was the almighty fix, i eve agreed with the fact that timing wil help. h8honda still didnt have to be a d^(k when he made the claim that the cat does not do anything with HC.i mostly just got pissed when he made that smarta$$ remark to conejunkies first post here.

[H8HONDA]

thats right i did not have to be a d***. had a bad day at work freaking customers were aholes all day long. so cone i do apologize. but for the record i never said a cat does nothing for hc i said it did not help burn fuel which seems to be the prob the guy is having with his emissions

[Cone Junky]

thats right i did not have to be a d***. had a bad day at work freaking customers were aholes all day long. so cone i do apologize. but for the record i never said a cat does nothing for hc i said it did not help burn fuel which seems to be the prob the guy is having with his emissions

You actually did say that the cat does nothing for HC. Do I need to pull up another quote? Then after being totally called out, you still tried to bash me. So obviously your just a dumb a** d!ck who should have any technical license or certification taken away from you. I didn't have to look up that info because I am a certified advanced level technician (in CA, where the emissions requirements are insane) and the catalyst is the core of every emission system. I also have a stack of advanced level diagnostic training manuals sitting next to me. Modern fuel systems are completely designed around keeping the cat in the perfect parameters. Horsepower, performance, and gas mileage are all secondary to the catalysts efficiency.

Just walk away from this thread with your tail between your legs and go away...

High CO is a sign of a rich mixture (unburnt fuel), HC is an indicator of incompletely burnt fuel. In other words, he's not necassarily running rich, he's just not burning all of it. Detonation, misfire, or low compression can raise the levels. Unless multiple passages are clogged and the EGR is causing the misfire, it only helps on NOx. Besides, the true emission test printout is the best way to see the whole picture. In CA we have tests done at two different engine speeds while under load on a Dyno. The symptoms and diagnostic strategies change if the tests are done at idle and off idle with no load (which mosts states test at).

[H8HONDA]

yes i wana see where i said exactly cat does not help hc at all. and mr high level tech HC is UNBURNED fuel. And the emissions types you are talking about are called 2 speed idle and an ASM we do both here also. But anyways the fact of the matter is you pointed him in the wroong direction when you said it was a cat. And mr advanced tech being so "EDUCATED" you should have known that 288ppm for hydrocarbon in a modern engine is too F***ing much but you didnt, it does not matter how the test is run that much HC means something else is wrong. Im just an emissions tech and i could see that right away. Why couldnt you see that without seeing the whole readout mr ADVANCED tech? like a said before my car had a bad cat when i tested it and the ONLY gas that was too high was nox. so you walk away because you got owned. Your a retard 288ppm hc and you want him to replace the cat?? if im ever in cali remind me not to let you fix my car.

[nothing]

Thanks for that response. I will definitely take a look at all the vacuum lines and make sure they're all good.

[dc1984]

yes i wana see where i said exactly cat does not help hc at all.

in ur verry first post u stated "it is not your cat. that controls the gas nox."

in cone junkies first post a couple after yours, he simply and respectivly made a correction to ^ur statement up ther^ "BTW-the catalyst controls HC, CO, and NOx. NOx is just the most important these days." - i dont see anything rude there IMO.

then on your second post, u stated "oh and i just wanted to let you know that HC stands for hydrocarbon and that is unburned fuel thats why i told you its not the cat. like i said im an emissions tech i do this all day long. so somebody wana explain to me how replacing a cat helps burn fuel???????????? oh thats right it doesnt." - now that is rude IMO.

to me its pretty simple, u say HC is unburned fuel(true). and u say a cat doesnt burn fuel(technically true, it changes it). but if unburnt fuel and HC is the same thing, and a cat DOES help get rid of HC, then doesnt that mean it would help the unburnt fuel too, since they are both the same thing? - thats just the way i look at it.

with all that being said, u still said the cat is for nox, cone junky made a simple correction saying the cat was for all three parts of the emissions, and then u started ranting and raving off that!

[H8HONDA]

yes i know thats what i said. now every state that i know that does emissions tests nox. now the only emissions device that helps nox is the cat. so if his nox is not failing how could it be the cat?? thats why i said its not your cat your cat controls nox so if the cat was bad the nox hc and co2 would have been through the roof. i thought you people would know what your talking about i did not realize i needed to draw you a map in crayon. i know the cat helps break down SMALL amounts of HC but again 288 is way too high. you guys are supposed to be car people and yet you dont know the basics?? now if you dont believe me about the cat and nox take yours off and have an emissions test run and i promise you will fail for nox. but anyways im done with you retards. FACT is its not his cat and cone aka MR ADVANCED tech ppointed him in the wrong direction right off the bat. and im the only person that even noticed. DAMN you b****ES are DUMB

[Cone Junky]

yes i wana see where i said exactly cat does not help hc at all. and mr high level tech HC is UNBURNED fuel. And the emissions types you are talking about are called 2 speed idle and an ASM we do both here also. But anyways the fact of the matter is you pointed him in the wroong direction when you said it was a cat. And mr advanced tech being so "EDUCATED" you should have known that 288ppm for hydrocarbon in a modern engine is too F***ing much but you didnt, it does not matter how the test is run that much HC means something else is wrong. Im just an emissions tech and i could see that right away. Why couldnt you see that without seeing the whole readout mr ADVANCED tech? like a said before my car had a bad cat when i tested it and the ONLY gas that was too high was nox. so you walk away because you got owned. Your a retard 288ppm hc and you want him to replace the cat?? if im ever in cali remind me not to let you fix my car.

Sad part is genius, I never said it was the cat. I only corrected you when you said that the cat has no part in cleaning up HC.Here is a reminder of what you said-"oh and i just wanted to let you know that HC stands for hydrocarbon and that is unburned fuel thats why i told you its not the cat. like i said im an emissions tech i do this all day long. so somebody wana explain to me how replacing a cat helps burn fuel???????????? oh thats right it doesnt." I think your implications were very clear to everyone that read your idiotic post.

You're right, I don't know what you're local emissions requirements are, that's why I wanted clarification. So I didn't know if they are idle or loaded tests. An EGR can cause a misfire during load by only pumping the gasses into one cylinder. But the EGR does not run during an idle test, so the diagnostic strategy would change if the problem was occuring without load. So seeing the actual test would clarify a lot of things. Only a dumbass wouldn't look at all available information when diagnosing.WE ALL KNOW THAT 228 ppm IS TOO HIGH. That's why we are discussing possible problems! Stop spending so much energy trying to disparage the rest of us and actually look at what we are saying at what STUPID remarks are coming from your side.Since I am not going to take the time to scan one of my tech manuals that explains the properties of tailpipe gasses, so here is a quick little quote from Wikipedia on catalysts processing HC- "Oxidation of unburnt hydrocarbons (unburnt and partially-burnt fuel) to carbon dioxide and water: CxH2x+2 + 2xO2 → xCO2 + 2xH2O "So yes, HC is partially burnt fuel. It is very important to recognize the difference. You can have high HC readings even though you have a perfect 17.65 to 1 (stoich) ratio if the cylinder(s) aren't firing correctly.

If you are going to come on here telling us that you know everything and call us stupid for not knowing, at least have your information correct. Maybe your state should stop giving out "Tech Inspector" certifications in Cracker Jack boxes. Otherwise idiots like you will stay employed. Besides, you should spend your time in "English as a Second Language" classes instead of you're so called training courses. You're grammer seems to be as qualified as you.

Seriously douchebag, shut the hell up! Even if you managed to say something that has some validity to it, you've lost any credit that you may have started with.

Also-the EGR is also used to reduce NOx. I doubt a car would pass with a working EGR and not a cat. But once again, you're absolute knowledge on all things emissions related is wrong again.

Here is a quote that the rest of us can relate to and is a perfect fit for your posts..."Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

Edited for appropriate quotation...
Modified by Cone Junky at 2:49 PM 3/9/2009

[dc1984]

yea, i dont think anybody said that the cat WAS the problem. im also pretty sure that the both of us implied that doing other things would help too

[Cone Junky]

OOOh, this is too much fun! So I just 'searched' this guys screename, interesting read.

Here are some words of wisdom from our emission tech-

"ok i have an 89 240sx ka24e. i bought an electric fan and a relay kit so i dont have to ghetto rig a toggle, the relay has a wiring diagram that makes the install easy on wire to pos battery terminal one to negative then wires for the fan. but the wire that makes it all work says it goes to thermostat switch. where is that on the motor???? is it the same thing as the engine temperatue switch? "He doesn't know what a thermostatic switch is? Maybe the instructions should have dumbed it up a little and called it a fan switch or a switch thingy that closes when placed in heat.

My favorite-

"i have an 89 240sx and im going to turbo it. but what i need to know is can i remove the pulse air injection and just cap the vaccume lines for it on the intake manifold??? and if i do this will everything still run the same?"Then apparently his typical response-"No i mean pulse air. it mixes fresh air with exhaust to dilute emissions. i know what an egr and pcv system are. im an emissions tech in utah so i know what system im asking about. thanks for your help tho guys"

So Mr. Emissions doesn't know what secondary air injection is either. And as I found, simply reading up on all the diagnostic codes that the car can generate will well you that there is no code for it. In other words, the computer will have no idea if the system is there or not.

[H8HONDA]

fyi dumbass 14.7 to 1 is stoichiometric. you are the one that really needs to look things stuff up. another FACT that i did not need to look up? you seem to be wrong alot for an ADVANCED tech. i mean damn all of us on my local forum are laughing at you. and fyi a car with a cat and no egr will pass emissions. it takes a little time and TUNINING look that word up in your manual but you can do it. and why is that??????????? because the CAT is the biggest reducer in NOX. not the egr. and im wrong for doing a diagnostic with partial information?? even if they to a 2 speed idle test the egr will operate at 2500rpm. DUH you f***ing retard. and another question i have been around cars my whole life and never heard of an advaced tech. your full of s***. there are wash techs lube techs mechanics and master techs your a liar. and advanced tech training manuals??? your a first year auto tech at your local comunity college. and you drive a riced out civic.