Who do you think will win in Nov?

[WDRacing]

As a vet, you're seriously ok with just walking away, no matter what?

That surprises me. I would have thought you'd want to think something was achieved by all that misery. Obama has always wanted nothing but to quit, or as you say, withdraw (not sure what the difference really is). That's all he ever had to offer. Now he's saying maybe he'll listen to the generals. Duh.

So, we'll see. Maybe we'll be able to find out whether an unqualified President is any worse than a qualified one. Personally, I'd rather stick with qualified guys.

Where do I start...

I've been in 3 separate foreign wars. I've shed my own blood and the blood of others in many a foreign country. I did time in Special Operations as well as Combat Rescue. From a soldiers perspective it's very difficult to think outside the box. It's something we simply can't do...start thinking about why we're here or there and you start getting yourself and others killed or injured in the process. That's simple fact...stay focused, do what you're trained to do and watch the guy next to you. I've hovered in to Hot LZs and picked up bodies that range from dead children to ******* politicians that needed to get the f*** out of dodge in a hurry. I've also flown on countless sorties simply to bring relief supplies to people suffering from ALL the bad things we dream about. I've seen helicopters blown up, I've watched an entire special forces unit, the 160th Special Task Force, lose a Chinook to massive ground fire...then I watched the squad try to evac the helo only to be cut down by two fire teams shooting from an elevated and covered position.

No one wants to end this war as badly as I do...

Whats the point? I'm no longer active duty...I have stepped back and examined the situation from outside the box. I'll support my brothers in arms till the last breath leaves my lungs...but we're fighting a war that has no end. WWWII was over in 6 years...how many years have we been dumping the sand out of our boots now? How many times have we sat back and cursed the politicians and their bullsh1t restrictions about who we can and can't fire at. How many times have we had to sit back and allow good American boys to get killed because the collateral damage was deemed to costly during a political Operational Risk Management meeting. How many times have you forgotten why you were there when it's month 9 out of 14. How many times have we missed a child's first steps...or a birth...or any number of extremely important things that we'll never have the chance to see again? The answer is simple...To God damn many.

Show me any enemy to fight, give me an attainable objective. Then don't tell me how to go about doing what I do best.

The issue isn't should we have gone over there in the first place...to late, we're there. The issue is how do we feasibly get home and defend the country we give our lives for every day. When do WE get to experience the freedom we fight for? When we lose a leg? When we are so fvcked up mentally that we suffer from severe PTSD...(Mike).

How many of us have been through a divorce now and can say that the long and multiple deployments didn't have anything to do with it? Not many...yet we're the same people that when called upon, will drop everything, run to the closet and grab the mobility bag that is always packed and disappear into the dark without question.

When is it our turn?

That's what this is about. I'll never turn my back on those that serve, I just want us to have a chance to live without all the political war mongering. Are you telling me that we can't better spend over a billion dollars a day to reach some type of final objective?

We need to get home...if the answer is to build a few permanent party military bases and rotate to and from on real orders...so be it.

We are Combat Ineffective right now. Not because we can't, but because we aren't allowed to. How can we be expected to fight for no objective and with one hand?

Our great Nation is stumbling into a possible recession, while our military men and women remain under paid, under supplied and pissed off. Yet the people running the war are sitting in nice comfortable offices while our families go without...enough. We spend enough money in one month in Iraq to give every single child in America a college education at no charge with enough money to build a fence that will span the entire country and pay for it to be monitored. That is one month...just one.

It's time to come home.

That's a copy/paste from another Iraq related thread. I can't possibly say it any better then that...

If electing an inexperienced black man that does drugs and fist bumps his wife gets the job done...then so be it.

I don't know about you guys, but I pray that Obama will bring the change he preaches about. Because we need it..and badly. Our Gov is broken...broken to the point that I would favor a new revolution. We haven't been a nation that is "for the people" in 20 years. We are a nation that keeps the people in power concerned with staying in power and all other things have become second.

WD

[AZhitman]

When someone comes in spouting "wholesale change", I do as I do in my place of business - I ask them the tough questions.

What exactly will you change? How will you go about it? Show me details of your plan. What will you do if you find you made a mistake? What if no one supports your vision? Where will the support and funding for "change" come from?

Instead, we have Jim Jones, pumping his fist, screaming "It's time for a change!", but none of the llamas in the crowd understand what that means.

[WDRacing]

I'm totally in agreement Greg. Change will be very hard to accomplish. Which is why I only care about topics that matter to me, such as the War and the further mongering that WILL happen if we keep a Republican in office.

I can run propane in any vehicle I have for about $1400 for a complete flex conversion so fuel isn't REALLY bothering me. The rest of the economy is going to tank and then rebound. If anything it's just a wake-up call that says HELLO...we're a tad behind the power curve..no pun intended.

But the guy is preaching for change...so he'll win. America is tired and wants change so all it's going to take is someone to say they'll do it. He doesn't even have to do anything, he just has to say it. You're a smart dude, you know how advertising works. Sell what the people want and they'll buy it.

WD

[AZhitman]

Understood.

I can only hope the "silent majority" (who actually ASK tough questions) outnumber the spoon-fed (who choke down whatever's been offered).

[WDRacing]

I seriously doubt it bro...todays day and age the sheeple are lead by the Liberal media and or the "Hope" of salvation. The dude is good...kinda like one of them TV preachers that heals people then asks for all your money...lol.

[Cold_Zero]

^ Not to shirk your original question, CZ (I'm researching that one), but in your example of Governors becoming Presidents maybe the formula isn't really working. If you elect a State executive to the position of Federal executive what you get is arguably (1) someone who runs a country like a state and (2) someone who is experienced at keeping a legislative body in check. Maybe (and you are correct, we cannot know) someone with more legislative experience understands the system a bit better from a law-making standpoint.

The same point can be made about our Nation electing people with Military experience.

[rn79870]

You didn't answer the question. Is this telcoman logged in as Bob?

Iraq.

McCain says the United States is winning in Iraq, and he strongly opposes Senator Obama's plan to begin troop withdrawals shortly after taking office.

Obama restated his opposition to the war in Iraq after a voter asked him why the U.S. image abroad has sharply declined in recent years.

"McCain is betting that the American people will be persuaded, ultimately, that no matter how angry they seem to be about what is going on in Iraq, we cannot afford to lose,"

Obama is taking the position that we will not lose, but we do not need to have as many troops there as we do at the moment, and with three-quarters of the American people opposed to the war in Iraq, I think that is an issue that works for Obama better than it does for McCain."

Is experience needed here? I have enough experience to see the errors of McCain’s (Bush's) ways. Obama has more than enough "experience" in this matter.

Taxes.

McCain has said that he'd eliminate the Alternative Minimum Tax and would introduce an alternative two-rate income tax code that would be simpler than the regular one. Taxpayers, he said, could choose which code to use.Tax expert and Yale professor Michael Graetz doubts it will be simpler for taxpayers to have to figure out their tax liability twice to see which code they prefer to file under. "But if the option is sufficiently appealing, you can phase out the old system," he said.

Obama has pledged to keep the tax cuts in place for everyone except those making roughly $250,000 and up. He also has pledged to cut taxes further for the middle class.

Our trade laws have - the same thing has happened. And part of how we're going to be able to deliver on middle-class tax relief is to change how business is done in Washington." Said Obama.

Social Security

McCain has expressed support for individual investment accounts as a way to augment Social Security benefits. But his campaign has indicated he no longer favors diverting payroll taxes from Social Security to fund those accounts.

Obama has said he opposes individual accounts and doesn't favor increasing the retirement age or cutting benefits. But he has called for increasing the amount of payroll tax that very high-income workers pay by subjecting more of their income to the payroll tax.

Fuel/Gas prices

McCain supported a summertime gas tax holiday, which he proposed paying for by using money from the Highway Trust fund.

Obama opposed such a tax break, contending it would not amount to significant savings for drivers nor help lower gas prices.Government spending

McCain's preferred solution is cutting government spending. He has called for a one-year freeze on discretionary spending to assess which programs should stay and which should go. He has also said he would demand that Congress eliminate earmarks.

Obama too has said he wants to restore fiscal discipline by cutting earmarks to levels no greater than they were in 2001 and reinstating so-called pay-go rules. Under pay-go, lawmakers may not pass any spending measures or tax cuts with paying for them by making cuts to other programs or raise an equal amount of money.

Even McCain realizes that the republican administration has failed the nation. His statement; "This Congress and this administration have failed to meet their responsibilities to manage the government," McCain said. "Government has grown by 60 percent in the last eight years. That is simply inexcusable."

He promised to veto "every single bill with wasteful spending." Points this out. However, what has he done to distance himself from GW’s failed administration?

[AZhitman]

However, what has he done to distance himself from GW’s failed administration?

"This Congress and this administration have failed to meet their responsibilities to manage the government," McCain said. "Government has grown by 60 percent in the last eight years. That is simply inexcusable."

He promised to veto "every single bill with wasteful spending."

Looks pretty clear to me... Maybe you're not reading.

BTW, pulling troops with no PLAN will NOT lead to lesser casualties. I'd hazard a guess it will put the remaining troops in greater danger.

But, I'd expect no less from the hand-wringers... Cut and run.

[ishkabibble]

Doesn't look clear to me at all. He's much more like Bush than he is unlike Bush in "his" "views".

Also, anyone involved with PNAC and Rove gets an auto-"like Bush" from me.

[rn79870]

Looks pretty clear to me... Maybe you're not reading.

BTW, pulling troops with no PLAN will NOT lead to lesser casualties. I'd hazard a guess it will put the remaining troops in greater danger.

But, I'd expect no less from the hand-wringers... Cut and run.

That's pretty selective editing there Greg - what about the line you left out;

He promised to veto "every single bill with wasteful spending." Points this out. However, what has he done to distance himself from GW’s failed administration?

I really hate to bash McCain because he is an American hero, however, he really shouldn't be president.

[AZhitman]

That's pretty selective editing there Greg - what about the line you left out;

He promised to veto "every single bill with wasteful spending."

I didn't leave anything of consequence out.

The hypothetical question posed by the author is partially ANSWERED in his own words.

Beyond that, I adddressed the reason he's not bashing the Commander-in-Chief.

[WDRacing]

Obama doesn't want to stop everything and fill up C5's and fly everyone home next month. He has a proposed plan that will draw down over 2 years, I'd hardly call that rash and unplanned.

Not to mention General Petraeus is also calling for a draw down in forces.

Is it inexperience to listen to your Joint Chiefs and the commanding General?

[smockers83]

Experience or no a huge part of the population is tired of the way things are. So any percieved change be it BS or not seems like a step in the right direction.

And the most famous case of this in recent history? Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich. People in Germany, all they wanted was change and look what they got. In no way am I drawing lines that Obama = Hitler, but just because you want change doesn't mean anything. The public needs to be smart about it. Personally, I'm undecided as of now but I think I'm leaning towards McCain.

[smockers83]

McCain supported a summertime gas tax holiday...

McCain's preferred solution is cutting government spending...He has also said he would demand that Congress eliminate earmarks.

Even McCain realizes that the republican administration has failed the nation. His statement...

He promised to veto "every single bill with wasteful spending."

Ways he's different from W. I don't necessarily agree with all of them, but its different.

You also said Obama wants to decrease troops in Iraq because it is unnecessary. That goes directly against the increase in troops, aka The Surge, and the success seen from that. More troops went in and the Dems said, "Well you should have done that earlier," all the while threatening to kill war budgets in order to bring troops home.

[WDRacing]

It's the commanding general asking for troop draw downs now. The surge was purely a temporary thing to attain certain targets. The goals have been reached and General Petraeus fully understands that the troops are tired and we have NO friggin budget left to work with.

So McCain is actually against the person in the best position to make an informed decision. Is that from experience?

I also find your comparison of change to Nazi Germany so flagrantly exaggerated that any other point you may hope to make will be completely discredited do to your obvious lack in judgemental ability.

People have listed leaders that have been prior Military and or had more experience as an objection to Obama's apparent lack there of. Well all the leaders in the past have gotten our country to where it sits today. We have a Gov that doesn't work like it was designed to. We haven't had anything "FOR THE PEOPLE" in decades. So experience has gotten us right here. In the beginning of a recession, behind the power curve in the energy market, dependant on other countries for everything from fuel to steel and we owe China enough money now that the next 5-6 generations of my kids will be in debt. So if experience has done this...I'll opt for change.

WD

[rn79870]

Wait a minute Smocky, you said "success" in Iraq. Could you define what "success" in Iraq is? Everyone says it has something to do with a time when less people get killed, but that's consistent with the "eye of the storm" theory. What exactally is success in Iraq and when will it come?

[WDRacing]

I think we have had success Bob, it's just that there can't be any clear lines drawn in the sand that can represent a victory or win condition. The real issue isn't have we succeeded or not, it's have we accomplished anything positive? Which is purely based on perspective and again can be debated for eternity depending on what side you're on.

Personally I think we've done all we can Militarily. We need to fully support the rebuilding process and continue to assist the people in any way that they'll allow us. But that can be done with limited troop involvement which should be the "real" end goal for our leadership.

How the country runs itself after we leave IS NOT UP TO US.

WD

[stopcamping]

I find it interesting that most of the people who are in support of the Iraq war have never been in the military.

[Cold_Zero]

Bob,I believe that the Democratic controlled Congress formulated benchmarks for success in Iraq that White House, CENTCOM and General David Petraeus have to use to measure success when asking for more money for the war.

Smockers,Both Hitler and Obama are/were Progressives.

Part of me says, F' it let Obama win the Presidency, so that the Republicans can start sharpening our teeth to go after his blood. They can do to Obama what the left has done to Bush for the past 8 years. We can blame and vilify Obama for Hurricanes, any drop in the market, loss of civil liberties (and they will come) and any time the government is slow to act (regardless if it is or is not the federal government's job to do so.) Look the Republicans did this to the Clintons back in the 1990's and I said this was going to set a bad precedence for the country. Then it continued with the Democrats under Bush and apparently turn about is fair play. I just warn Obama and the Democrats, you have no idea the depths of treachery that will be come as retaliation for what this country did to GW Bush.

To the people voting for ‘Change’ in the next election. I hate to beat this like a dead horse, but go back to the November 2006 elections. The people gave the rally cry “We are voting for ‘Change’ in Iraq” after the media spawned this idea. Where IS your change? Have you conveniently forgotten this election? You swept out those evil Republicans and put in Democrats that were going to end the war in Iraq, bring the troops home and send GW Bush a message. Or at a bare minimum stand up to George W. Bush and withhold funding for the war. Effectively forcing the White House and the Pentagon to wrap up the war in Iraq and send the troops home. Yet, the Democrat controlled Congress has folded to the President, they have done nothing meaningful with their majorities in either houses and they have a lower approval rating than the President!Seriously folks, it astounds me how fast the American public throws its “Candidates”… “Their Guy” under the bus. I guess when Obama gets elected and things don’t pan out like you think they will and the people turn on Obama, I will continue to say what I have been saying since the Nov 2006 elections. “Where is your Fvcking change now?”

Am I bent over the 2006 elections? Yes, I admit it. Because of the media spurred ‘change in Iraq’ campaign, we lost some major things that were coming down the pipe in Congress. Namely Tax reform, some keep pieces of legislation where being ‘prepped’ in Congress to reform the tax code and the IRS. But because it was more important to send GW Bush a message on Iraq, now we have to live with a busted tax code and an abusive Internal Revenue Service.

[rn79870]

I'm really starting to worry Brain, we're agreeing on far too many things.

[stopcamping]

Woud you get on a plane flown by a pre-teen?

GWB's experience record was comparable to Obama's, if not worse. I still don't know why you supported GWB if experience matters to you all that much.

[Repo Man]

I find it interesting that most of the people who are in support of the Iraq war have never been in the military.

Have you been in?

GWB's experience record was comparable to Obama's, if not worse. I still don't know why you supported GWB if experience matters to you all that much.

You do know that he was the governor of the largest state in the Union, right? Obama has ZERO executive experience.

[rn79870]

Bud, the "change" you speak of can only come from a strong leader, one strong enough to put his foot down and tell congress what he expects. There may be a ton of social issues that require congress to work as a team, but Iraq was Bush's mess from the start. He has, and should use his powers as president to get the situation resolved. He hasn't, instead, he continues to be lost in a sea of conflicting advice.

Everybody wants to blame congress when in fact, there has been no "leader" strong enough to stand up and take charge.

[stopcamping]

I just warn Obama and the Democrats, you have no idea the depths of treachery that will be come as retaliation for what this country did to GW Bush.

Is Bush your cousin or something? Why are you taking this so seriously?

[rn79870]

You do know that he was the governor of the largest state in the Union, right? Obama has ZERO executive experience.

Running a state has nothing to do with controlling the largest economy in the world, let alone the strongest military. In all reality it probably depends on the cabinet a president chooses, and I have high hopes for Obama not making the same mistakes GW made. A liberal twist may be needed to turn this all around.

And Bud, that liberal twist can't help but bring change.

[stopcamping]

Have you been in?

No, but I'm not supporting the war. I also have plenty of friends who've come back and tell me it's effed up over there.

You do know that he was the governor of the largest state in the Union, right? Obama has ZERO executive experience.

You do know I was talking to AZhitman about his int'l experience, right?

[WDRacing]

Bob,I believe that the Democratic controlled Congress formulated benchmarks for success in Iraq that White House, CENTCOM and General David Petraeus have to use to measure success when asking for more money for the war.

Smockers,Both Hitler and Obama are/were Progressives.

Part of me says, F' it let Obama win the Presidency, so that the Republicans can start sharpening our teeth to go after his blood. They can do to Obama what the left has done to Bush for the past 8 years. We can blame and vilify Obama for Hurricanes, any drop in the market, loss of civil liberties (and they will come) and any time the government is slow to act (regardless if it is or is not the federal government's job to do so.) Look the Republicans did this to the Clintons back in the 1990's and I said this was going to set a bad precedence for the country. Then it continued with the Democrats under Bush and apparently turn about is fair play. I just warn Obama and the Democrats, you have no idea the depths of treachery that will be come as retaliation for what this country did to GW Bush.

To the people voting for ‘Change’ in the next election. I hate to beat this like a dead horse, but go back to the November 2006 elections. The people gave the rally cry “We are voting for ‘Change’ in Iraq” after the media spawned this idea. Where IS your change? Have you conveniently forgotten this election? You swept out those evil Republicans and put in Democrats that were going to end the war in Iraq, bring the troops home and send GW Bush a message. Or at a bare minimum stand up to George W. Bush and withhold funding for the war. Effectively forcing the White House and the Pentagon to wrap up the war in Iraq and send the troops home. Yet, the Democrat controlled Congress has folded to the President, they have done nothing meaningful with their majorities in either houses and they have a lower approval rating than the President!Seriously folks, it astounds me how fast the American public throws its “Candidates”… “Their Guy” under the bus. I guess when Obama gets elected and things don’t pan out like you think they will and the people turn on Obama, I will continue to say what I have been saying since the Nov 2006 elections. “Where is your Fvcking change now?”

Am I bent over the 2006 elections? Yes, I admit it. Because of the media spurred ‘change in Iraq’ campaign, we lost some major things that were coming down the pipe in Congress. Namely Tax reform, some keep pieces of legislation where being ‘prepped’ in Congress to reform the tax code and the IRS. But because it was more important to send GW Bush a message on Iraq, now we have to live with a busted tax code and an abusive Internal Revenue Service.

Can we agree that we have a failed Government? Cause it doesn't matter who's running what or whether the Congress does anything...the real issue is that the people get fvcked over and over no matter who's in office or what party is controlling what aspect of anything.

We have a failed Gov and we are being screwed. The very people that are supposed to work together to run the country are to busy playing party politics.

Placing blame on people isn't going to get us anywhere. We need to figure out how WE can take back the control the Gov has taken from us.

[Cold_Zero]

Is Bush your cousin or something? Why are you taking this so seriously?

Did you read that entire paragraph? Why do I take it so seriously? Namely because it sets a bad Presedence for this country. Also because I was raised a the military, where my parents taught me that you might not respect the man in charge, but you respected his RANK and his Position of Authority. Like it or love it the President is OUR leader of this country, regardless if you voted for him.

[stopcamping]

I disagree, Bush is NOT MY PRESIDENT.

I don't respect anyone who was (and potentially still is) an addict. I dont know about you, but if someone wants my respect, that person has to earn it. And GWB has not earned any of my respect.

[rn79870]

Bud, I too came from a military family and was taught the same things about the chain of command. But this isn't the military, and I've got a stake in the outcome of our governments activities.

Sometimes, things get so far off center (politically) that we knee jerk to the opposite side with the hope that the pendulum stops in the center. And the current admin is way too far off center, IMO.