Where is Nissan Headed?

[krash]

So I have my grumblings and theories in a few threads, I figured why not consolidate?

Where do you guys think that Nissan is headed? What do you think is their plan for the future, their goal? Some points of discussion:

1) Recent removal from the DeltaWing project

2) Refusal to acknowledge the consumer's want for a cheap rwd funmobile

3) Planned production of a 2014 Murano Crosscabriolet (because the last one was such a huge success...)

4) Killing off the V8 engine in their cars

5) Infiniti's re-structuring of the name system

6) Apparent indifference towards the healthiness of the Infiniti brand

7) Thinning out the RWD drivetrain

8) Continual use of CVT (without option of manual transmission)

I'm sure you guys can think of more "hints". My question is, looking at all of this, what do you guys think they are trying to do? To me, it seems like they are REALLY trying hard to distance themselves from the low-budget enthusiast. In the 90's they had 300zx and 240sx. 240sx was the cheaper alternative to the 300zx. The secretary's car. Something to make that dreadful commute just a little bit more fun and bring out the enthusiast in everyone. I'd assume that the 240's price point was in the affordable range for the average person. Even aside from RWD cars, it seems like all of their cars had that "sports car DNA". all the way down to the humble sentra. The 1991 Sentra SE-R. Light, stiff, peppy, fun. The Maxima, the REAL 4DSC. Roomy, comfy, 3 pedals, what? fun? yes. Heck, a few members on here even had fun with their pick-ups!

Lets look at what they're doing now. Admittedly, the Juke has potential to be a fun car. But only in CVT? whats up with that? What else do they REALLY have? The 370z is great, fhlotingpoint will tell you that, but thats a $40k car. What do they have under that price that I can get in and look forward to driving every morning? Murano? heck no. Maybe the Altima or Sentra? Surely those will be fun, look at their reputation! Alas, numbed down versions of previously fantastic cars. So whats their angle here?

Here is my theory. They want out of the "fun" and into the practical. Murano is a bland omlette when I look at it. But if I were a parent that didn't care about what drivetrain my vehicle had, how it handled, or weather it put a smile on my face, the murano would be a great car. It seats 5, has room for luggage, gets 24mpg highway, and costs 30k. Thats a sweet deal for say a father that wants to haul his family around for a road trip and then comeback sunday night and go to work the next day. Sentra? Maybe I'm a recent college grad that doesn't know a flywheel from a pinwheel, single, just need to skip along to work and back home, maybe drive some friends around occasionally. Seats 4 people comfortable, has trunkspace for my clothes and loose papers, 34mpg, and $16k? I'm in.

I think this is what they're trying to do. Get away from enthusiasts and target the consumers that just dont care about torque ratings or steering feedback or "carving corners". They want to make simple cars that someone can walk up to, say, "hey it fits 5 people and gets good gas mileage," and buy.

However, this seems counterproductive for their Z and GTR sales. Who wants to buy a sports car from a company that makes cars for people that don't care? I could pay 40k for a Nissan sports car, but what does that look like? When I say Nissan do people think, "wow those are fast and fun cars" or do they think "wow those cars are really practical". I don't want to spend $40,000 on a "practical" sports car. I could go buy a WRX or an STi. What do people think when they think subaru? AWD, Rally, rallycross, ken block, motorsports. I could buy a new Miata. What comes to mind when normal people think of mazda? That weird rx7 car that was in that random racing game I had and I won a lot of races with. I have trouble finding a person that doesn't know what a Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution is. So why spend my money on a "practical" nissan, when I can get a fast, fun, nimble subaru (I'm not saying that its true, but thats what it looks like).

Anyway, those are my ramblings for the night. Please chime in and ramble for yourself as well. I'd love to know what you guys think about this when you have all your ideas in one spot.

[90BLU12]

I've been rambling on to my friends at work about the same thing. Personally I think it all started in 1999 when Renault bought .333333333333333333333% of the company . I personally am in college to pursue a degree in marketing, and you know where I'm going to apply? Nissan USA. Someone needs to get this $h1t back on track. Literally. I honestly refuse to buy (that's if I have to purchase a new car in the event mine gets totaled) a Nissan that's newer than 1999.

[frapjap]

You make some points that make sense to me, especially

Even aside from RWD cars, it seems like all of their cars had that "sports car DNA". all the way down to the humble sentra. The 1991 Sentra SE-R. Light, stiff, peppy, fun. The Maxima, the REAL 4DSC. Roomy, comfy, 3 pedals, what? fun? yes. Heck, a few members on here even had fun with their pick-ups!

.

I think you are on to something here. The cars are definitely being watered down in both a performance and an enjoyable sense. The average person is buying transportation and nothing more these days. Its unfortunate that a company with such a rich heritage of motorsports and excitement is churning out these 4 door boring mobiles. Both of my brothers bought NEW Nissans. One is practical and bought a stripped out Versa- and knew EXACTLY what he was getting into (just graduated college, needed a car) and doesn't particularly like it. The other (out of college for a year) bought a fully loaded Altima R sedan. The latter brother has never had a sports car of his own and thinks this car is fantastic. The first brother had a 240sx and enjoyed my sports cars when I owned them. Point is, one gets it and made the compromise, the other has no idea and thinks the Altima is all that and then some.

But back to the statement I want to make- when I think of other cars in the competitive landscape for Nissan's entries, my brain lights up and a big, bright, flashing brand comes to mind:

All of their cars are maketed to be inspiring- the 2, 3, 6, hell even the CX-9 is marketed as "fun to drive." Almost every one of them can be had with a manual transmission- OR, AT WORST, a very good paddle shift automatic- NOT A FREGGIN' CVT- and they even get respectable gas mileage! You'd better believe I'd buy a CX-5 over that heap of crossover crap that Nissan calls a Murano. I was even thinking about spending more than I wanted on a car and was pricing out CX-7's before I bought my Legacy. I won't even get into the Miata. What I'm trying to state is that Nissan seems to think like most of the consumers- "WE WANT A CAR" but they're getting their asses handed to them in their main segment by the Mazda 3 and Mazda 6. The FOCUS is a nicer car than a Sentra! The Festiva is a nicer car than the Versa, and so on. The highlight here is that Nissan seems to think that "fun to drive" isn't what motivates the consumers, but Mazda embraces this and does well for themselves. Simply put- the market exists!

[WDRacing]

My wife needed a new car a couple of months ago, I didn't even look at anything Nissan had to offer. That's where Nissan is headed.

[breadbox]

Can I buy up the Datsun Brand and restart the Cycle of Nissan over again?

Nissan and infiniti are like confused parents trying to manage a budget and do what the world expects them to do.

I want that young starter-mobile my aunt had as a kid that anyone could work on and fix. Who needs an ecu?

In the era of control they don't want cars they want automobiles, they for some reason want every rolling death trap to follow the laws of robotics before the laws of inertia and the thoughtlessness of those at the helm.

I am pretty sure my daughter won't have the same view on people movers as I will, though I am sure she will have a fine appreciation for mine.

As far as Nissan, I saw a guy driving a crossbriolet last year, he seemed happy as he drove wrecklessly through town on his cellphone. So maybe its a hit for some people, just not anyone I know.

My friend likes his CVT sentra, I don't. Will say that trunk is surprisingly spacious.

Then after that all my friends own 1998 and earlier and love their cars.

I wish they would do something for the not quite broke enthusiast, because obviously FWD ain't cutting it for the crowd I know. If the alti coupe came V6 AWD, there would be a different scene in that market.
If it came RWD people would b**** about it not being the next 240sx and then a ton of them would have bought cuz it is.

Just a couple thoughts.

[Heavy]

Re: Where is Nissan Headed?

here....

[nissangirl74]

1) Recent removal from the DeltaWing project: Not too familiar with this, so I'll leave this one to the experts.

2) Refusal to acknowledge the consumer's want for a cheap rwd funmobile.
7) Thinning out the RWD drivetrain
8) Continual use of CVT (without option of manual transmission)

This right here is your trifecta of fail, at least to those of us who are true automotive enthusiasts. When the BR-Z and the FR-S came out, Nissan enthusiasts waited with great anticipation for its version. They never got one. Guess what happened? They drove their Nissans down to the Subie / Toyota dealerships and traded them in. Take a look real close to home. Many of our Altima Coupe OGs are from the Northeast. There were a lot of losses after Hurricane Sandy ransacked the area. Guess what happened? People bought something else. And they're not looking back. I could easily include myself in that list if I was looking for a new ride. The only three things on the lot right now that I really like are the Z, the G sedan, and the new Pathfinder. The Z for obvious reasons, the G for style, performance, and seating for 5 all in the same car, and the Pathfinder just because I really like it for what it would offer me as a mom that still hauls a bunch of kids around. However, even as much as I like them, I think there are options out there that are better styled, less expensive, more fun to drive, and more fuel efficient.

3) Planned production of a 2014 Murano Crosscabriolet (because the last one was such a huge success...)
Pure idiocy.

4) Killing off the V8 engine in their cars. The V6 and the V8 get the same s*** gas mileage so I guess it just comes down to which engine is easier to build and is most compatible to the CVT. Most engines, when paired with a CVT, don't have enough power to pull a greasy string out of a cat's a**. So is power a non-issue now that the CVT is the standard? (The V6 isn't SO bad, but the 4 cyl is just horrid.)

5) Infiniti's re-structuring of the name system. Way to make the system even more confusing. Brilliance personified.

6) Apparent indifference towards the healthiness of the Infiniti brand. See # 5

[krash]

Take a look real close to home. Many of our Altima Coupe OGs are from the Northeast. There were a lot of losses after Hurricane Sandy ransacked the area. Guess what happened? People bought something else.

That is a great point. If I had an altima coupe that got destroyed in Sandy, Nissan is the last place I'd look to replace it. There are so many cars that fit the bill so much better at this point. Honestly, the only thing that catches my eye in Nissan's new line-up is the Z.

4) Killing off the V8 engine in their cars. The V6 and the V8 get the same s*** gas mileage so I guess it just comes down to which engine is easier to build and is most compatible to the CVT. Most engines, when paired with a CVT, don't have enough power to pull a greasy string out of a cat's a**. So is power a non-issue now that the CVT is the standard? (The V6 isn't SO bad, but the 4 cyl is just horrid.)

Heres the thing with CVT, it actually is good in theory if you have certain boundries. I'm part of the SAE chapter in my school, and we use a CVT on our mini-baja car (a lot of teams do). The thing there is, everyone in the competition has to use the same unmodified Briggs and Stratton motor. The CVT, which you can tune with different weights and springs, keeps the engine in its powerband almost all the time, so it pretty much keeps the car going as fast as it can. Now, the main reason we use it is because of the cost of designing and building our own manual gearbox and trans, which some teams have done. It also keeps things really simple, which is a good thing because things WILL break at competition and having a simpler car makes things easier to fix.

Then again, Nissan isn't building a mini-baja car, isn't limited by budget, and voluntarily chooses not to build manual transmissions. I see why they put it in a car in the first place, I'm sure some consumers like it. The whole not shifting thing could be nice for non-drivers that are drinking coffee or applying make-up in traffic. I'm tempted to say it keeps the car running efficiently as well. But its definitely not simpler to build than a regular auto trans or manual trans (in nissan's position at least) and no one freakin wants it. I have yet to meet ANYONE that says, "Oh man you should get a Nissan, they have that really cool CVT transmission." Its hilarious that they're still using "SHIFT" as their slogan. "SHIFT_ohwaitnevermind"

All of their cars are maketed to be inspiring- the 2, 3, 6, hell even the CX-9 is marketed as "fun to drive." Almost every one of them can be had with a manual transmission- OR, AT WORST, a very good paddle shift automatic- NOT A FREGGIN' CVT- and they even get respectable gas mileage! You'd better believe I'd buy a CX-5 over that heap of crossover crap that Nissan calls a Murano. I was even thinking about spending more than I wanted on a car and was pricing out CX-7's before I bought my Legacy. I won't even get into the Miata. What I'm trying to state is that Nissan seems to think like most of the consumers- "WE WANT A CAR" but they're getting their asses handed to them in their main segment by the Mazda 3 and Mazda 6. The FOCUS is a nicer car than a Sentra! The Festiva is a nicer car than the Versa, and so on. The highlight here is that Nissan seems to think that "fun to drive" isn't what motivates the consumers, but Mazda embraces this and does well for themselves. Simply put- the market exists!

I'm starting to think that Mazda is the new Nissan. They might not have anything to compete with the Z at this point, but really, Mazda makes a friggin' station-wagon thats more fun that most of Nissan's line-up. I completely forgot about the Focus. Ford came out of nowhere with the Focus ST and I think the hit the nail on the head HARD. I was reading an article about it, its a pretty sweet car for what it is.

I wish they would do something for the not quite broke enthusiast, because obviously FWD ain't cutting it for the crowd I know. If the alti coupe came V6 AWD, there would be a different scene in that market.
If it came RWD people would b**** about it not being the next 240sx and then a ton of them would have bought cuz it is.

Just a couple thoughts.

An AWD altima coupe would be pretty cool, but really it'd probably be a FWD Altima with a driveshaft and a crappy algorithm that skips the rear tires along every now and then. RWD, yea I think there'd be a big hubaballoo about it being and Altima, but it'd soon pass and take the spot of a Mini-Z.

[Bubba1]

I agree with almost everything Bex wrote. Very wise. I personally don't see Nissan crashing and burning in a festering putrid CVT crossover stinkhole that they cant get out of. But I do see some of these items as signs that it might be time for a change at the top, because Nissan seems to have forgotten the "fun" factor of cars.

Some thoughts about the list.

1) Recent removal from the DeltaWing project

This I actually see as a positive step. It was a bad decision to get involved in it in the first place.

2) Refusal to acknowledge the consumer's want for a cheap rwd funmobile

I think this is a symptom of a bigger problem. I believe Nissan laid out an ambitious plan a few years ago to overhaul their US lineup, but as the market changed (which it always does), Nissan decided to stay the course instead of adjust. It appears they banked on boring CVT's and crossovers and ignored cheap RWD fun cars, (assuming the wrong wheel drive juke/rogue would fit the tab.....BZZZZT wrong!) As a result they missed a big opportunity currently enjoyed by Toyobaru, Mazda, and Hyundai.

3) Planned production of a 2014 Murano Crosscabriolet (because the last one was such a huge success...)

This is nuts. The car was a sales disaster from day one, And to bring it back unchanged except for a minor discount off list price (that no one paid anyway), is misguided. Whoever made the decision to press forward with it needs to go away.

4) Killing off the V8 engine in their cars.

Well, I don't see that as a huge issue as the overwhelming majority of Nissan's car line up don't come with V8's.

5) Infiniti's re-structuring of the name system

This is also misguided IMHO. They've effectively trashed model names that have earned an excellent reputation in this country over the last decade, and replacing it with Audi's Q letter with an extra digit. My feeling is just because Lincoln and Acura did it something dumb like that doesn't mean Infiniti should do the same.

6) Apparent indifference towards the healthiness of the Infiniti brand

I believe this is rumor, but you gotta wonder about the motives of the man who made it public. Now, if it turns out to be true, then perhaps it's time for Mr. Ghosn to take his golden parachute, jump into his Murano cross-cabriolet and drive off into the sunset.

7) Thinning out the RWD drivetrain

That's been going on for years, and it's really not just Nissan. I think the problem is Nissan, like many other manufacturers, believe RWD is popular only with enthusiasts and there are not a lot of us. Though you would think the G35's success and BMW's success shows that people really like RWD sedans. I see is as another missed opportunity. But I think a related problem is when Nissan's marketing folks attempt to compensate by labelling CVT only FWD automotibles as sporty when it's clear they're not.

8) Continual use of CVT (without option of manual transmission)

This is disturbing trend, as I presume Nissan's doing it to save manufacturing costs and to gain a few mpg pointss to comply with increasingly tougher federal mileage requirements. What they seemed to discount is the fun to drive factor.
Hopefully they'll wake up and work on putting the fun back into their vehicles. CVT's are certainly not the answer.

[MinisterofDOOM]

This is also misguided IMHO. They've effectively trashed model names that have earned an excellent reputation in this country over the last decade, and replacing it with Audi's Q letter with an extra digit. My feeling is just because Lincoln and Acura did it something dumb like that doesn't mean Infiniti should do the same.

Especially when no one thought it was a good idea for Acura or Lincoln either! Of course, Nissan's sin is perhaps not so great, as they only went from one alphanumeric naming scheme to another. They did not trade real names like Zephyr and Vigor for meaninglessness like MKZ and TL.

[Jesda]

It's baffling. Lincoln is paying homage to its Mark series of coupes that it inexplicably no longer builds. Infiniti is paying homage to its Q45 sedan which it also no longer builds.

Instead of paying tribute to the great cars of the past, JUST BUILD GREAT CARS.

*sigh*

[nissangirl74]

Instead of paying tribute to the great cars of the past, JUST BUILD GREAT CARS.

[WDRacing]

It's baffling. Lincoln is paying homage to its Mark series of coupes that it inexplicably no longer builds. Infiniti is paying homage to its Q45 sedan which it also no longer builds.

Instead of paying tribute to the great cars of the past, JUST BUILD GREAT CARS.

*sigh*

Slow your role dude. You can't go making so much sense all at once.

[Bubba1]

Instead of paying tribute to the great cars of the past, JUST BUILD GREAT CARS.

Well said.

[krash]

I figured I'd leave this here:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJBgAX5Z42o[/youtube]

[Rev_D21]

I believe this is rumor, but you gotta wonder about the motives of the man who made it public. Now, if it turns out to be true, then perhaps it's time for Mr. Ghosn to take his golden parachute, jump into his Murano cross-cabriolet and drive off into the rainbow.

FTFY

My thoughts are that Nissan is trying to bore us to death so we go away and stop reminding them of how great they were in the past. They are denying their future by denying their past.

[MinisterofDOOM]

However, even as much as I like them, I think there are options out there that are better styled, less expensive, more fun to drive, and more fuel efficient.

This is THE key. It's the Toyota effect--homologation. Get successful, shift focus to volume and marketing, and forget that your products needs to be DIFFERENT in order to matter. The ONLY thing that stands out for most Nissan models is a bad thing: the CVT. Why buy a Murano when you can get an Edge? Why buy Pathfinder when you can get a Flex or an Acadia or the newly-deuglified Traverse? Why buy an Altima when you can get a Fusion? Why buy a Sentra when you can buy ANYTHING ELSE AT ALL? Why buy a Maxima when it doesn't even manage to stand out from NISSAN'S OWN OFFERINGS? Why buy a Rogue when you can get an Escape or a CX5? There's just no reason to buy a modern Nissan so long as any other brand on earth exists. Hell, even the HIGHLANDER, the epitome of soulless boring crossover despair, comes with cogs in its transmission. It's a sad day when a Highlander is a better option than your own.

[Ace2cool]

newly-deuglified Traverse

I didn't believe you, so I googled it. It's true.

[Mr. Music]

I'm wearing my imaginary fire suit while adding a somewhat differing perspective as to the posts above. The CVT isn't that bad. Its not great either, but it depends on what you want it for. When I bought my car back in '07, I had the choice of a manual or the CVT. I spend the vast majority of my time behind the wheel in stop and go traffic, so I went with the CVT. (Yeah, I'll admit it, I'm lazy.) I regret that that decision a few days out of the year when nobody else's alarm clock goes off, but otherwise, it gets the job done well enough and the "manual mode" lets me make all the fun noises I want to make without breaking the speed limit whenever I'm up for such tomfoolery. If I lived somewhere with fun, curvy roads instead of the arrow-straight lanes of southern Florida, my decision would have likely been different. However, at least I had the choice of what transmission to buy.

If I were buying an Altima Coupe today, I would have no such choice as the manual is no longer offered. They don't even offer the V6 anymore! Unfortunately for Nissan, I wouldn't be buying an Altima coupe today in the first place. There are much more appealing cars for the same money now than in 2007 when neither the Genesis coupe nor the Toyobaru twins existed. I recently drove my car to the nearest Toyota dealer to try an FR-S; I would have never bought my Altima if a car like that existed when I bought it. This brings to light the comment about the market changing but Nissan deciding to stay on course. Bad choice there, as one can clearly see the demand for "a cheap rwd funmobile" by their sales numbers. If only Nissan had an offering in that market too...

I grew up in Nissans, but outside the 370Z and GT-R, neither of which I can afford, they don't make an interesting car anymore. Someone recently asked me for input on a new car purchase and I directed them toward Mazda (bought a Mazda3). That's part of Nissan's problem - they've gotten really good at making vanilla. They have no equivalent to Tabasco sauce - something that is cheap, awesome, not for everyone, but has fans that swear by it. Marketing is wonderful (not really), but what people tell each other can be the best form of marketing a company can have.

Reading the posts above, I see that I'm not alone in my thinking. I also realize that people who buy cars like I did - base engine with the auto - are partly at fault to blame for this whole fiasco too. While it is unfortunate for the enthusiasts, Nissan is trying to build what they think will result in big profits. How building the Murano Crosscabriolet and ignoring Infiniti fits into actually turning a profit, I'll never know, but at least we can thank Nissan for making some awesome cars over the years. We can also thank Nissan's competitors for doing what Nissan didn't have the courage to do – build “a cheap rwd funmobile.” Hopefully someone with power at Nissan will come to their senses before they turn into another Honda.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Yep. Even if the CVT was genuinely GOOD, it still should never be the only option.

I don't see how a 4-seat midsize front-driver is in the same cross-shopping segment as compact sports coupes, though.

[alphapig]

I agree with every point

Some opinions from an Altima stand point:

I feel CVT is far superior to traditional automatic (for low power figures), but making it the only option is beyond ridiculous.

Not offering a v6 is actually a great idea. I don't see a point in FWD v6, with plowing 70/30 weight distribution and butt-loads of torque steer.

It will never be AWD or RWD. Nissan missed the turning point trend by about 5 years. When I bought the Altima, the ONLY comparable vehicle in price was the bloated Accord coupe.

If I had the choice now, I would NEVER buy the Altima.

[krash]

I feel CVT is far superior to traditional automatic (for low power figures), but making it the only option is beyond ridiculous.

You are actually right. But yea, having it as the only option is crap.

[Mr. Music]

I don't see how a 4-seat midsize front-driver is in the same cross-shopping segment as compact sports coupes, though.

It isn't, but when I bought my car, there weren't really any affordable compact sports coupes on the market like there are now.

I really hope that Nissan sees the light and changes it's direction a bit. Sales volume and market share are important, but Nissan could learn a few things from Mazda about how to create customer loyalty.

[alphapig]

I don't see how a 4-seat midsize front-driver is in the same cross-shopping segment as compact sports coupes, though.

It isn't, but when I bought my car, there weren't really any affordable compact sports coupes on the market like there are now.

This.

If the Altima Coupe appeared in 2012 we would have less than half the A/C members than we do now.

The options for new ~25k coupes, in the end of 2007, were:

1. Altima Coupe
2. Accord Coupe
3. Hyundai Tiburon
4. Mustang v6
5. Scion TC

I test drove all and the A/C was so much superior in build quality and handling I could hardly believe it

Tiburon had some sweet leather seats and nothing more. Accord was a boat (it's as long as the sedan!). The TC had no redeeming features besides a low price. The mustang was bloated and under-powered.

I'm still very, very happy with the A/C despite busting my oil pan and tearing a CV boot.

[MinisterofDOOM]

The options for new ~25k coupes, in the end of 2007, were:

1. Altima Coupe
2. Accord Coupe
3. Hyundai Tiburon
4. Mustang v6
5. Scion TC

Don't forget the Camry Solara!


Sleekest lines this side of a bowl of regurgitated cat s***.

[WDRacing]

Not offering a v6 is actually a great idea. I don't see a point in FWD v6, with plowing 70/30 weight distribution and butt-loads of torque steer.

Great idea? That is just silly talk. The handling of a FWD car is going to be off regardless. Offering an underpowered vehicle makes a bad handling car slow. Torque steer? How many people really car about torque steer? Not many in reality, it really only occurs when you punch it from a stand still and only if it isn't accounted for.

Not having a V6 option is a loser. There is a huge demographic that prefer the ability to merge at speed without the sound to 4 hamsters having sex in a cardboard box.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Torque steer can be mitigated by decent engineering. This is how GM used 300 ft-lb V8s in FWD configurations for two decades.
Nissan's early FWD VQ implementations used a crummy uneven halfshaft design that exacerbated the torque steer problem. Later models improved on things a lot, cleaning up the halfshaft angles and lengths.

And as long as you keep the engine mostly behind the axle centerline, the weight distribution isn't a HUGE detriment. Granted, as a driver of a car with near-perfect (51/49) weight distribution, I can ABSOLUTELY appreciate the benefits of such careful design. But my old Maxima had an IRON BLOCK V6 chillin' out front, and it still felt brilliantly neutral handling-wise.

[WDRacing]

Give me torque...period. Any of the GM SS fwd models whether it was a supercharged V6 or a V8 are all excellent vehicles. I love the older Buick GS with that old reliable supercharged 3.8.

V6 is a bad idea?....I fart in your general direction.

[alphapig]

Don't forget the Camry Solara!


Sleekest lines this side of a bowl of regurgitated cat s***.

The handling of a FWD car is going to be off regardless. Offering an underpowered vehicle makes a bad handling car slow.

The QR25 powers all 3100 pounds just fine.

And I don't mean merging and rage-passing either. It hauls my a** up a mountain road at around 4.5k RPM.

[MinisterofDOOM]

And I don't mean merging and rage-passing either. It hauls my a** up a mountain road at around 4.5k RPM.

4.5k RPM!!?? That's NUTS! That's easily 1500rpm higher than I EVER want to see while cruising at reasonable speed. 4.5k is embarrassing, not boastworthy.

I'm barely at 2500 rpm at 80mph. That goes for hills, mountains, and anything else you might pave a road on.
And even the VQ would shave ~1000rpm off of that pathetic 4.5k.