Wheel Spacers...just for looks?

[DuDro]

Aside from helping with brake clearence, are spacers just for looks?

Has anyone installed spacers on a F50 around here?

[Q_SHIP]

Im waiting on mine from Kevin. I should have them very shortly. I'll let you know how it goes.

[elwesso]

the kind that are "bolt-on" are not very safe IMO and id never recommend them. Always change them out for longer studs... I installed spacers on mine to clear the Z32 brakes.

I generally dont like spacers.

[Q_SHIP]

Why do you say that Wes?

You got me nervous now.

[Falkdesigns]

the kind that are "bolt-on" are not very safe IMO and id never recommend them. Always change them out for longer studs... I installed spacers on mine to clear the Z32 brakes.

I generally dont like spacers.

Uneducated comments like this make people that don't know, take your word, when you don't have a legitimate explanation. Please don't give out advice like this when you don't know what you're talking about.

Bolt on spacers are much safer than longer studs will ever be. Shorter studs will always have more strength given the same steel than longer ones, less flex, less stress. Bolt on spacers, specifically the ones that Q_ship bought from me, are made by someone in the Drag Racing business. They handle 7000 HP Nitro Funny cars, they can damn sure handle 300 hp on a Q45 street car.

[elwesso]

First off, i dont really like using wheel spacers.. If you need lower offset, then get a wheel with lower offset! but for the sake of discussion, onward we go.

Heres my biggest deal.. Nissan studs arent particularly the strongest. Ask Z32 owners and 240 owners why they swap to 60mm NISMO studs. Why? because factory studs sometiems break, and are generally regarded as weak. If you dont belive me thats fine, but nissans use the same studs all around. Run the part numbers! Dont start with any "well I havent heard of any failing on Y33's so the problem must not exist". They dont fail that OFTEN, so its not particularly a huge issue, but its worth considering. So, any stud that you get is going to be better. The ones I got were with my H/R spacers, and are probably equivalent to nismo ones..

Now, so we clarify things, lets show how bolt on spacers vs standard slip on spacers work.

I suppose we could consider a wheel bolted to the hub of a car a 2nd class lever, where the effort is opposite of the fulcrum, with the load between the effort and the fulcrum. I dont want to get knee deep in semantics that we get thrown of from the point of all this.

- Bolt on spacers simply work by attaching the spacer to the factory lugs, and then you bolt the wheel onto the spacer. Generally speaking in order for these to work, they have to be around >7/8inch thick (say 23mm+).

- Standard spacers work by genearlly (not always) installing longer studs and then you basically are installing a big washer over the studs, and then you bolt them on just like you would a normal wheel.

My spacers are 15mm, or about 3/5in. If I recall, falks are 1inch, which would be 25mm.

Heres why I dont like bolt on spacers.

1. You have to at least move the wheel 23mm from the hub. As you move the wheel farther out, you are putting more strain on the studs. As I stated earlier, the wheel acts like a simple lever. Simple physics will tell you as you move your wheel farther out, its going to put more strain on the studs. Now you may ask, well, the spacer is bolted in the factory location! No free lunch, your still putting more strain on the studs.

2. You are bolting the wheel onto the spacer itself. Thus, the hub does not take the majority of the load, the SPACER does. Is the spacer as rough and tough as the steel hub behind the rotor? Certainly not. PLus as they get thicker and thicker, they can warp much like rotors do. as we know that when the wheels are loaded, the studs are taking all the load, which is then transferred to the hub.

Conclusion- The spacer is the primary load bearing unit in this setup, NOT the hub as it should be.

So heres what I think is better about the slip on spacers.

1. You are not putting the load onto the spacer itself. You are simply pushing the wheel farther away, and the load is being transferred directly to the hub as the factory setup.

2. As I stated earlier, the upgraded studs are much stronger than nissan OEM ones. PLUS, with my 15mm spacer, i have all the threads engaged.. The factory studs are only 4-5-6 threads short of working with the 15mm spacer.

With thatbeing said, with the factory studs, you are placing the load more on the outside of the stud, but on the upgraded ones you are putting the load more in the middle.. That seems better to me.

HOWEVER, this is all POINTLESS REALLY to discuss BECAUSE spacers are a bad idea. The experts really only recommend H/R spacers.... IM not going to touch on your comment falk about the funny cars, but they have to last 3 seconds.. I think they shouldnt have a problem. funny cars dont realyl have any lateral load (at least theyre not supposed to) to speak of, but street car has much more

Heres a thread I read that support my case, in that H/R slip on spacers are the ONLY ones worth anything if you HAD to ues a spacer. I highly recommend reading its great read.

zerothread?id=65710

[Falkdesigns]

I knew you'd somehow try to make a 7000 hp load that propels a car from 0-330mph in under 5 seconds seem less stressful than driving a street car!! Brilliant.

It's basic physics dude. Take a 2" pencil and try to break it, now take a 4" pencil and try to break it, much easier right? Same principle as longer wheel studs.

Longer wheel studs in motorsports applications are used with OPEN ended lugs and the lugs are still threaded down to the normal place, so the extra length is sticking out through the stud. It's not trying to resist all the pressure and stress of the drivetrain any more than the standard studs were.

Do you have any idea how common bolt-on spacers are in MANY forms of racing, not just drag? How common they are in Europe where owners of highly modified Porshce, BMW, Benz, Ferrari drivers use them? And over there, they MUST meet TUV and ISO standards.

If you honestly believe that " You are not putting the load onto the spacer itself. You are simply pushing the wheel farther away, and the load is being transferred directly to the hub as the factory setup.", you need to put down the pipe. Once the wheel is no longer on the hub itself, you are putting ZERO of the load on the hub, it's ALL on the longer studs.

You might think you know allot, and you do for your young age, but you have got ALLOT to learn.

H&R does make a quality, off the shelf spacer, and honestly, if they made springs for the Q, I'd have H&R's on my car right now. I know that H&R is a top notch brand. However, the spacers that I had are 100% billett aluminum, hub-centric for NISSAN, and made by a man that's supplied the Drag Racing industry for over 20 years. I guarantee they are on the same level of quality as that offered by H&R.

Again, you are spreading misinformation based on some things you've read on this forum. I am sharing what I know from industry work, personal experience and TWENTY years of modding cars.

[elwesso]

I agree with you. However, the major point im trying to make is that spacers=bad. In general, they arent a good idea compared to some. I have a hard time comparing spacers that come OEM (porsche 911s in the late 80s came with spacers OEM for their wide bodies) vs spacers that are bought on the aftermarket..... Its too apples and oranges for me..

Im not spreading any misinformation.. It really doesnt matter if any of all that crap I babbled on about is true... In fact, if someone else was arguing that stuff, i would very likely argue against in that alot of it is stupid! the point im trying to make is that spacers generally arent a good idea, so why even bother determining which is better... HMM, this sort of reminds me of a few CLASSIC debates we've had! Take it with whatever grain of salt that you prefer.

Can spacers work? Yes. Do they use them in racing? Yes. are you likely to have a failure related to spacers? Maybe. Are you LESS likely to have a failure WITHOUT spacers? of course.

Man, yet another hour of my time wasted on debating something pretty much pointless. Maybe I will learn one of these days!

[CrimsonQ]

Group hug:)

As always, this is the best place for info.

[nismofly]

First off, i dont really like using wheel spacers.. If you need lower offset, then get a wheel with lower offset!

thats all that was needed

[squeefoo]

Well said Wes.

The thinner the spacer the less wear and tear on the wheel bearings, the ball joints, and the upper transverse link. Which are generally non-greaseable on a Q.

Bolt on spacers were outlawed at a race track near me, only slip ons can be used (don't help out any of those guys anymore, many gave up racing altogether, so I don't know about nowadays). This is on cars that went from about 120 to about 80 into the turns on an asphalt track with very wide, sticky tires and really hot brakes.

Lug torque of 72 - 87 ft/lbs (per 1990 Q45 FSM p. MA-20) X 5 lugs = 360 - 435# X 10! of alternating tension forces on the bolt on type spacer. (ulp)

Whereas 360 - 435 # (spread out between 5 lugs) of compressive force w/ the slip on spacer.

Considering the above I feel safe with my 13mm slip ons with longer studs @90ft/lbs to clear my monstrous brakes.

[DrewQ45]

Both of you bring good points to the table in regards to this subject.

I must agree with Wes on a few things... Nissan factory studs are weak. I must have changed at least 3 broken studs on my Q (front and rear) and have two brand new studs that I keep just in case. Very easy to wring these things off if you get torque happy. BTW Wes, the studs aren't the same all around, not on my Q anyway... Can't quite remember what the difference was (maybe the length between bottom of threading and back end with splines that anchors into hubs). The material and threads are all the same but the studs are slightly different back to front.

With regards to the spacers...For everyday driving, I think both would be safe enough, however, I would be more inclined to trust the slip on spacer if for nothing, it's sheer simplicity.

Granted, when you properly torque a wheel down on either spacer, it essentially clamps everything down and tranfers the stress to the hub (you'd hope). With the bolt on, you are essentially doubling the amount of studs on each wheel and putting too much reliance on the device itself. I'd rather rely on a single set (5) of studs to clamp my wheel to the hub with solid metal spacer in between, than to depend on 10... only five of which are directly on the hub and the rest being further out (more stress via leverage). Imagine if there was another layer to the bolt on and yet another set of studs(now 15) then you'd start to see how the problem compounds on each level (now x3 instead of x2). Given the same level of spacing with a slide on spacer, you'd simply double the thickness of the spacer, which is essentially a metal plate with holes drilled into it. Which would I trust more? (yes I know the bolt on could be thicker too but I wanted to convey a point)

BTW, I woudn't recommend spacers that are more than .25" thick and when a slide on is used, each lug nut must catch at least 6 layers of thread on the original stud. If longer studs are needed, I'd reevaluate.

Wes, I get what you're saying regarding the dragsters. I've watched many a wheel go flying if these things arent kept straight. The stresses on the hubs/studs are unbelievable and aren't meant to be lateral. Every watch a slow mo of the tire as it wrinkles at initial launch?

...Drew....

[dousan_pg]

no way bolt ones before studs for surepeople who brek them re stupid. we trck our cars 2-3 times a month and regular driving. ive seen more aftermrkeet studs break b4 spacer problems. a spacer of good quality torqued correctly will be as good if nto better then longer studs and sandwich spacer. bolts on cn be order hubcentric like spacers.

i talk first hand expirience. ive run bolt ons for my 240sx for over 4 years (various brnds nd types) ive never broken studs or spacers.

i change wheels on the fctory studs at least 4-6 times at a track event. and thats at least 2-3 times a month. regular driving on streets too.

most people who break studs are:

torque lug nuts w/ impact tools (not hand threading)over torqueingnot torqueing enoughuse ****ty lug nuts (tuner style)

as far s the stress on the hub comments. thats BS

low offset wheel does the SAME THING

i run 17x9 0 and 18x10.5 +15

its got the same stress on the hub as a 17x9 +15 w/ 15 mm bolt on.

for sandwich stress is on the lug nut

you have more stress on the hub/lugs w/ a factory wheel then a wheel w/ a 0 offsetor w/ a dspacer effectively making it a 0 offset

this has been discussed so much. you cn search Freshlloy some of those enginereing/nerd guys went into this so much. bolt ons arent dangerous. there are tons of great brands beyond H&r for less money and are good if not better.

[squeefoo]

as far s the stress on the hub comments. thats BS

low offset wheel does the SAME THING

i run 17x9 0 and 18x10.5 +15

its got the same stress on the hub as a 17x9 +15 w/ 15 mm bolt on.

Is the tire dia. and circumference same as stock? Is the offset the same as stock?Does the car weigh the same as the cars above? Has the new suspension geometry been calculated for the new/different stresses? Have all the wheel bearings, and ball joints been replaced with stronger ones based against the calculations above?

Quote »for sandwich stress is on the lug nut[/quote] Yeah!! Now I'm stressin' for one of those damn lug nut sandwiches...
Modified by squeefoo at 11:18 PM 4/6/2006

[squeefoo]

Uneducated comments like this make people that don't know, take your word, when you don't have a legitimate explanation. Please don't give out advice like this when you don't know what you're talking about.

Followed by:

Bolt on spacers are much safer than longer studs will ever be. Shorter studs will always have more strength given the same steel than longer ones, less flex, less stress.

Since when do wheel studs flex? Longer studs might stretch more, but none flex...

The irony...

[dousan_pg]

i could run a 17x9 +15 that weighs the same and uses the same tire as a 17x9 0 off yesso it would be the samewhich one has more stress?

offset doesnt affect the stressthe spaces will add some stress but so minimal its not an issue.

u dont need strongre hubs or bearing.most cars run stock, even heavly track autox hpde etc etc events cars and they can stand up to the beating on oe stuff.

i wouldnt worry

seriously ive run spacers bolt ons low offset wheels for over 4 yearsNEVER had porblems

i use used hubs too and never have a problem. tracked 2-3 timse per month. more lately w/ the events my friends run.

its seriously the last thing i worry about at the track. i worry more for oil temps and such then i do about bolt ons

i know guys who run 40 mm bolt ons. but the car and hubs are ok.

its all bs.

just do it

install them righttorque them rightand you'll be fine.

this is al my first hand expirience, not what somoene else said an di regurgitate it because i have never done it myself.

i want to run these wheels on the q. my wheels sitting in japan stillgotta ship them homelow offset and wide.

warning giant pic too lazy to resizehttp://i29.photobucket.com/alb...a.jpg

hubs will be aok. no worries. if i need bolt on (maybe front) or spacers no worries. it is fine.

most cars here arent f1 cars so we dont need al lthat calculation ****most cars are daily driven pick up the wife and kids pick up some high school girls and get some Wendy's. you overthing something so small. I dont even think that much on my track car

[mcrews]

"" Again, you are spreading misinformation based on some things you've read on this forum. I am sharing what I know from industry work, personal experience and TWENTY years of modding cars.""""

""""You might think you know allot, and you do for your young age, but you have got ALLOT to learn."""""

As much as I "enjoyed" the lively exchange, I found these two comments out of place, immature and rude. If you are so experienced then you should have grown passed needing to make petty comments about wes' young age and knowlegde to defend your point. Frankly, now that I know wes is young I have much more respect for what he has to say.And the fact that he never slammed you or your experience speaks volumes for Wes. Texas A&M, my alma mater, builds one hell of a bonfire. Set a world record of 100+ feet. The thing fell 4 yrs ago and killed 12 students. Never had a failure in 70 yrs. THey had books and books of notes and drawings, tons of experience, years of practice. "in-breeding" caused that thing to fall. They never sat back and questioned how it was being done.

Your words have spoken louder than your experience, unfortunately.This is a forum, not a debate.

Every week I garner some new piece of information and am thankful that you smart guys share with us newbies and wantabes. Mark

[FarFetched]

To add a bit of coal to the fire, I might add spacers add unwanted stress to front/rear wheel bearings. Even different offset (deep dish wheels) aren't good idea w/o addressing wheel bearing issue. It applies to folk that like to use big wheels whis skinny tires. That also adds a lot of stress to wheel bearings!And at the end we complain why my Q45 has "THAT and THIS" nose!GO figure!My 0.02$Cheers!

[elwesso]

To add a bit of coal to the fire, I might add spacers add unwanted stress to front/rear wheel bearings. Even different offset (deep dish wheels) aren't good idea w/o addressing wheel bearing issue. It applies to folk that like to use big wheels whis skinny tires. That also adds a lot of stress to wheel bearings!And at the end we complain why my Q45 has "THAT and THIS" nose!GO figure!My 0.02$Cheers!

... and the larger the spacer, the more stress!!! Since you cant run a modest spacer (lessthan/equal to 15mm) with bolt ons, well, i think it speaks for itself.

[Q_SHIP]

Aside from helping with brake clearence, are spacers just for looks?

Has anyone installed spacers on a F50 around here?

Ok, back on subject. He wanted to know if there are any other benefits other than the looks.

[elwesso]

Ok, back on subject. He wanted to know if there are any other benefits other than the looks.

LOL!!!!! I guess we got a LITTLE sidetracked!!

To answer your question, technically speaking wheels that stick out farther away from the body result in better handling, but you dont have to get that by spacers..... You can get that from using lower offset wheels.

I dont know if this increase in handling is quantifiable.

[Falkdesigns]

Benefits would be fitting wheels that weren't intended for this car, such as every Infiniti or Lexus that has Brabus wheels. People have used spacers / addapters in the air-cooled VW world for 30 years or so in order to fit Porsche wheels.

Honestly, I can not believe some of the stuff people on here believe. Once a bolt on spacer is attached to the hub it essentially becomes part of the hub. Longer studs with slip on spacers create a sandwich that's subjected to much greater loads, but whatever.

[maxnix]

Aside from helping with brake clearence, are spacers just for looks?

Yep. If you have the correct offset wheels, you don't need them. More unsprung weight and more stress on longer than necessary bolts.

For the fashion over function crowd.

[nismofly]

^^^pretty much, the increase in handling is so minimal, its advantage is lost in the amount of weight and alignment range lost

[dousan_pg]

^^^pretty much, the increase in handling is so minimal, its advantage is lost in the amount of weight and alignment range lost

are you seroius?

your alignment doesnt change w/ spacers! bwahahaha

a 5mm slip on doesnt weight more then 1 lb

i didnt know there were so many hard core racers here.....driving q45s...a heavy as hell car.

[nismofly]

well maybe not for Q's

but when you need to run a certain amount of camber to get a wheel to clear, thats what im talking about, of course they dont change the alignment

i know you drifters most of the time just set camber to however much and leave it there, but there are times where you need less camber than you can get because youre running wheels like that

and 1lb of unsprung weight is a lot in my books

of course this all coming from a circuit racer, so people always tell me i take weight and stuff too seriously when talking about other cars...

[Falkdesigns]

Nor do they change the camber!! If you have 3 degrees of negative camber, and you install 2" spacers, you STILL have 3 degrees of negative camber.

Quote »How is your truck tracking?

How stable is your van?

Safety Update! Independent tests show 25% IMPROVEMENT IN LATERAL STABILITY!On April 9, 2001, The National Transportation Highway Safety Administration issued a media alert and released a cautionary warning to owners of all 3500 vans regarding a rollover-rate increase. In single-vehicle accidents (no other cause, just a van-stability issue) the rollover rate increases with the number of passengers and/or the weight of the load. This cautionary warning was carried by all major networks and newspapers.

All class-B motor homes exhibit a significant tracking difference between a wider front axle and a narrower rear axle. This problem may be a contributing cause in the increased rollover rate. Our rear-wheel alignment system, CT Spacer kit, is specifically designed to solve this problem. Independent tests have shown that installation of CT Spacer kit returns 25% of the van's lateral-stability loss. We work with major van-conversion manufacturers to address this serious safety issue. Please note that PLEASURE-WAY conversion vans are going to be equipped with our system. [/quote]The above is from a bolt on spacer manufacturer that makes spacers for vans and heavy trucks (I'm sure they don't see near the stress of our Q45's though, right?).

Quote »Wheel Adapter FAQ

Are your billet wheel adapters safe?Yes, they bolt on exactly like a wheel, and are designed stronger than the wheel itself. If you can change a tire, then you can use our wheel adapters. Our adapters have never had any failures, and are even safe for racing. We have been using them on our twin turbo Camaro for years.

Why should I buy Skulte Performance Designs wheel adapters?Our adapters are precision CNC machined from aerospace grade 6061-T6 aluminum, and come with heavy duty pressed in Grade8 SAE or Grade 10.9 metric studs. Other companies may not be using certified materials, proper design tolerances, or heavy duty studs. Their adapters may look the same, but may vibrate at speed, or even fail from hidden material or machining defects. We choose to build the best adapters, using the best components, and will never sacrifice safety.

Can I try out different adapter thicknesses?If you're not sure of what thickness you need, we keep 1.25", 1.7", 2", and 2.25" Chevy bolt pattern (5 on 4.75") adapters in stock. You are welcome to exchange the adapters for a different size as long as they haven't been driven. This is a good alternative if you're not sure a custom adapter thickness will work properly.

Will your wheel adapters cause vibrations?Our billet adapters are hubcentric, and also have conical lugnut seats that center the adapter to the hub. If the adapters are first finger tightened in a star pattern, then torqued to 30 ft-lbs, and finally ftorqued to 85 ft-lbs, the adapters will center themselves to the lugnuts. Other adapters that use the older mag-wheel style shank and washer to bolt the adapters to the hub will have some slop, and may cause vibrations at higher speeds. We also recommend wheel-centric lips on any adapters that are thicker than 3 inches, especially in the front. Under 3 inches, we have never had any vibration issues, although we can add the wheel centric lip if requested on custom adapters. We use the SPD billet wheel adapters on our '89 Camaro, which regularly sees high-speeds at the race track without vibration.

Do the bolt-on wheel adapters increase the load on suspension parts?The suspension loads are only affected by the centerline of the tire. Billet adapters usually correct offset issues when bolting newer style high offset wheels onto older cars that were designed with low offset wheels. A wheel with a 51mm offset and a 2" adapter is identical to the suspension as a 0mm factory wheel. This loads are the same on the wheel studs, bearings, bushings, because the wheel is in exactly the same location on the car.

If it helps, imagine two identical wheels, with only the offset being different. Bolt the 2" adapter to the 51mm offset wheel, and it will measure exactly the same as the 0mm offset wheel.

Will my studs break if I use bolt on wheel adapters?No, the loads on the studs are identical to just bolting on wheels if the centerline is the same. Slip-on spacers will increase stud loads.

Are slip-on wheel spacers safe?Slip on wheel spacers are safe, as long as you limit them to 1/4" or less. As the wheel is moved further out, the bending load on the wheel stud increases. We don't recommend using slip-on wheel spacers greater than 1/4" thick. New heavy duty studs are recommended as well. Slip on wheel spacers are not the same as bolt-on wheel adapters.

Can I use your adapters for racing or rock crawling?We've been using the billet adapters on our twin turbo Camaro road race car. So far we've torn driveshafts, snapped axles, and broken torque arms, and the adapters have always been perfect. We are great at product testing (i.e. finding the limits of components when they break!). If we can't break it, it won't break[/quote]Read the above and then get back to me about how "slip on spacers are better and safer than bolt on spacers", because you guys that believe this are WRONG.

[dousan_pg]

thanks falk good stuffi totally agreeim a bolt on man myself. i have 15, 20, 25mm bolt ons always keep the 25mms in the car.

slip ons are the suck.

[nismofly]

like i said, i never said they change camber, i just said you lose range

if i only want to run -2.2, but i need to run -3.5 so my wheels clear, not happening

but like i said, this is coming from a person who puts function before everything else, so i wouldnt do it because of weight, alignment range, stuff like that

[RobertsnewQ]

DOn't use slip-on spacers. They're illegal in most racing classes for a reason. THe problem (as Kevin rightly pointed out) is that they stress the studs since they apply force further from the supported inner end. THink about it - shorter bolts are stronger than longer ones.

Anyway, back to the original question:

YES

It's the same effect as increasing track through any other means (wider tires, different offset, even cutting the car in half and widening it).

That is, it reduces lateral weight transfer on the widened axle. Lateral weight transfer is a function of lateral acceleration, center of gravity height AND WHEEL TRACK.

Reduced lateral weight transfer means increased grip at that end of the car.

If you've ever raced Karts, you've seen this in action. Karts don't have springs to adjust, so there is no way to change relative roll stiffness with suspension settings (well, some, since the frame is the spring and rollbars in one). THe only way is by moving the wheels in and out along the rear axle, or the fronts spindles with spacers.

To make a Kart UNDERSTEER, you narrow the front track or widen the rear track.

To make a Kart OVERSTEER, you narrow the rear track, or widen the front.

The effect on a car is much reduced because the F&R suspension geometry, spring rates and roll bar rates all conspire to change the chassis's reaction to the lateral weight transfer.

BUT all else being equal, a car with a wider track will handle better (have more grip) than one with a narrow track.

So spacers do have a function/benefit.