Its been a while since we've had one of these.

My lease on the awful, oil burning, base model Impreza is up soon.
Thank God.

Anyway.

There are a few cars that have really struck me and have become the next potential lease.
I'm high on:

Focus ST
Kia Stinger
Mazda 6 Signature
WRX Premium
Legacy 3.6 ARRRRRRRRRR

They're all roughly in the same ballpark for cost/month with 12k miles.
The car is mainly going to be used for winter miles and for the hell of it in the summer when I'm not driving something else. Whatever it is, I will get snow tires. Because skiing. I want something that is entertaining to drive that I don't have to refer to it as "the penalty box." I have a summer ride, so this thing is primarily a winter ride.

Some notes-
I haven't driven a Focus ST, but Sheets and PapaSmurf enjoy theirs and I trust their opinion. Torque steer be damned.

Haven't driven the 6 yet, but know it'll be decent. Because, Mazda.

The Stinger is a fantastic car. 4 or 6 cylinder, its well equipped and a very, very good driver. Recommend you get some seat time in one. Without having to buy it, I don't give a damn about residual value. Don't make that argument. It checks a lot of boxes, but I like to explore options.

WRX is a WRX. Loud, annoying, s*** interior, but fun to drive. Only manual option in the bunch. I don't hate it. Wouldn't be sad if I owned one.

Legacy 3.6R is a really nice, comfy cruiser. Handles well enough, is plenty quick, second in interior space to the Stinger, but a quiet, understated sedan.

Sorry Nissan, you don't make anything worth a damn these days that is even worth considering for an enthusiast.

Whatchy'all think? Post your motion!

mac, if your seriously serious? I know MA roads! Stinger,Stinger,Stinger GoOOoolly!

Your newest list has a variety of sizes/types on your list, so I'm not sure what you're really after. None of them are bad choices:

I'm intriqued most by the looks of the Stinger, as most everyone. It's brand new. Sexy lookin'. Have not yet driven one. It's a big sedan, that evidently does everything pretty well. I normally advise against 1st year models, but the only 1st yr model year bad experiences I've ever had were with American cars. And Kia has been building increasing good stuff lately.

Legacy: Nice sized vehicle. My brother has had a wagon version for years, and a good friend of mine has had a Legacy wagon too. Both love theirs (clearly not the "ARRRRRRR" sedan), but neither put on many miles annually, and both are used more as grocery getter/yard sale haulers than canyon carvers. tasks the cars've done well and reliably . I've driven them. Very competent car in wagon form, it'll keep you entertained. Hard to argue against their versatility. I'd certainly look at a Legacy ARRRRRR sedan

wrx: It is what it is. Louder, smaller, fun to drive sedan, seems to have barely enough paint to cover it, exhaust sounds like a fart if you put an aftermarket system on it, but you already know Subie charms and warts. I personally like Subies. Like the focus, I think of the wrx is more of a younger person's car. But I'd look more at the STi if you're thinking about wrx's.

Focus: Difficult comparing a subcompact to a full sized sedan, as the differences in basic design are so different. I found the newer Foci to be pleasant cars to drive, though they are small (though bigger than those old awful 1st gen Focus). They have been plagued by reliability issues over the years, a concern to me, but many do not mind that. They do torque steer at bit if you push 'em hard enough, but they are undeniably fun to toss around. If you're after an enonobox instead of a big 'sporty" sedan, then, yeah, it's a compelling choice.

Zoom Zoom 6. I've always liked them. I haven't been in the newest version yet , but I've been on track in the previous 2 gens, and enjoyed them. Nice tight handling, reasonably comfortable, good sized sedan has a solid reputation for reliability that'll make you smile if you get aggressive it. My only gripe was the wind noise at high speed with the windows down. But that's just a track thing. Good choice for a sedan.

I think any of your list is fine. In my current situation, with 2 sedans and a sports car, from your list, I'd probably lean to a Legacy wagon for it's versatility, but that's me. Legacy sedans are always a good choice, especially if you want awd. If you like Subies, it's a no brainer. The big Stinger is certainly going to draw looks and is getting a lotta hype at the moment. Time'll tell if it ends being more stinger than stinker. But if you're after a big sedan, it's seems worth the risk. The Mazda is little smaller by comparison, and is more stealthy. Not as many people outside of enthusiasts realize how much fun they are. That can be either good or bad depending on your view, but it's a safe choice. The Focus is a fun sporty econobox, but at the end of the day, it's still an econobox. The wrx is a pleasant little sports sedan... again, if that's what you really want.

So i’ll have you know the 6, Focus ST, and WRX are all available with a manual, but I’m not sure about the trim you mentioned for the 6. I’m not sure about if the manual is available with AWD either.

I have researched a chunk of these for my contingency plan with the truck, and I came away with the following:

Most compelling car and best interior volume goes to the Stinger. (Liftback is cool! It’s got more trunk volume than the hatch Focus.)

Easiest to deal with in inclement weather is WRX.

Most economical fun car goes to Focus ST. Gas mileage is great on it - I believe the only thing better in your list is skyactiv 6.

If you consider buying off the lease, of all your choices the Legacy would be the smartest choice, but also most boring (because full practicality tends to be boring in most cases to us enthusiasts.). The most well rounded choice would be the WRX. You would absolutely enjoy that car for many years, and the 18s will allow for a roof rack for their now OEM available cargo accessories. (If I were to get an STI I would have them throw in a Thule cargo bin for the roof).

All that said, the save the manuals vote goes to the Focus, while the “morbid curiosity vote” goes to a Stinger GT AWD.

about to hit 55k on my st. i've done oil changes, swapped out the oem summer tires, one engine air filter, and i'm on my 3rd cabin air filter. i got it with 11 miles on it (my test drive). that's it. it's been solid and entertaining the entire time. and with the conti extreme dws i put on, it's a tank in the snow. i'm not a fan of the revised front and rear ends of the 2015+, but that's not going to change the way the car drives.

Bubba1 wrote: ↑

Sun May 13, 2018 3:20 am

Your newest list has a variety of sizes/types on your list, so I'm not sure what you're really after. None of them are bad choices:

I'm intriqued most by the looks of the Stinger, as most everyone. It's brand new. Sexy lookin'. Have not yet driven one. It's a big sedan, that evidently does everything pretty well. I normally advise against 1st year models, but the only 1st yr model year bad experiences I've ever had were with American cars. And Kia has been building increasing good stuff lately.

Its a very nice driving car. Not too worried about the first year model part since I'll lease it though. I'd be afraid to buy considering the high amount of tech that is in that thing. For instance, .t has a variable opening thermostat. Cool stuff, but not DIY friendly 6 years down the road.

Bubba1 wrote: ↑

Sun May 13, 2018 3:20 am

Legacy: Nice sized vehicle. My brother has had a wagon version for years, and a good friend of mine has had a Legacy wagon too. Both love theirs (clearly not the "ARRRRRRR" sedan), but neither put on many miles annually, and both are used more as grocery getter/yard sale haulers than canyon carvers. tasks the cars've done well and reliably . I've driven them. Very competent car in wagon form, it'll keep you entertained. Hard to argue against their versatility. I'd certainly look at a Legacy ARRRRRR sedan

I wish they still made a wagon. But alas, nothing good can stay. Its probably the lease exciting of the bunch, but is a decent ride. But lease payments being equal, its makes this choice harder.

Bubba1 wrote: ↑

Sun May 13, 2018 3:20 am

wrx: It is what it is. Louder, smaller, fun to drive sedan, seems to have barely enough paint to cover it, exhaust sounds like a fart if you put an aftermarket system on it, but you already know Subie charms and warts. I personally like Subies. Like the focus, I think of the wrx is more of a younger person's car. But I'd look more at the STi if you're thinking about wrx's.

LOL @ the paint comment. That is incredibly accurate. Its thin for weight savings, right?! The STi is an incredibly over priced car for the amenities you get. I don't need fancy pants stuff, but the interior is no different than the bargain basement model Impreza that I currently have. (save for some seats). Plus, the STi suspension is incredibly stiff and would be tough for me to live with every day. Its hard to really be blown away by the WRX compared to the competition. I have a hard time with the value and paying within $10 of the Legacy for a car that isn't a nice on the inside and makes the same power. Granted, they will handle very differently.

Bubba1 wrote: ↑

Sun May 13, 2018 3:20 am

Focus: Difficult comparing a subcompact to a full sized sedan, as the differences in basic design are so different. I found the newer Foci to be pleasant cars to drive, though they are small (though bigger than those old awful 1st gen Focus). They have been plagued by reliability issues over the years, a concern to me, but many do not mind that. They do torque steer at bit if you push 'em hard enough, but they are undeniably fun to toss around. If you're after an enonobox instead of a big 'sporty" sedan, then, yeah, it's a compelling choice.

You bring up a good point. I'm looking for something engaging to drive for the months that my 'fun car' isn't on the road. Glad to see that you think they're enjoyable to pilot around. I haven't sat in one, but they may have the same hard plastics as the base model which discourages me from getting one.

Bubba1 wrote: ↑

Sun May 13, 2018 3:20 am

Zoom Zoom 6. I've always liked them. I haven't been in the newest version yet , but I've been on track in the previous 2 gens, and enjoyed them. Nice tight handling, reasonably comfortable, good sized sedan has a solid reputation for reliability that'll make you smile if you get aggressive it. My only gripe was the wind noise at high speed with the windows down. But that's just a track thing. Good choice for a sedan.

I've gotta drive one and have an appointment next Sunday to do so. No manual on the new turbo engine doesn't bother me greatly.

Bubba1 wrote: ↑

Sun May 13, 2018 3:20 am

I think any of your list is fine. In my current situation, with 2 sedans and a sports car, from your list, I'd probably lean to a Legacy wagon for it's versatility, but that's me. Legacy sedans are always a good choice, especially if you want awd. If you like Subies, it's a no brainer. The big Stinger is certainly going to draw looks and is getting a lotta hype at the moment. Time'll tell if it ends being more stinger than stinker. But if you're after a big sedan, it's seems worth the risk. The Mazda is little smaller by comparison, and is more stealthy. Not as many people outside of enthusiasts realize how much fun they are. That can be either good or bad depending on your view, but it's a safe choice. The Focus is a fun sporty econobox, but at the end of the day, it's still an econobox. The wrx is a pleasant little sports sedan... again, if that's what you really want.

Its really a tough call given that they're all similar money and are vastly different car. All can be entertaining, all can hold skis and associated gear, and all can get me to the mountain/to work on snowy days.

RicerX wrote: ↑

Sun May 13, 2018 9:20 am

So i’ll have you know the 6, Focus ST, and WRX are all available with a manual, but I’m not sure about the trim you mentioned for the 6. I’m not sure about if the manual is available with AWD either.

I have researched a chunk of these for my contingency plan with the truck, and I came away with the following:

Most compelling car and best interior volume goes to the Stinger. (Liftback is cool! It’s got more trunk volume than the hatch Focus.)

Easiest to deal with in inclement weather is WRX.

Most economical fun car goes to Focus ST. Gas mileage is great on it - I believe the only thing better in your list is skyactiv 6.

If you consider buying off the lease, of all your choices the Legacy would be the smartest choice, but also most boring (because full practicality tends to be boring in most cases to us enthusiasts.). The most well rounded choice would be the WRX. You would absolutely enjoy that car for many years, and the 18s will allow for a roof rack for their now OEM available cargo accessories. (If I were to get an STI I would have them throw in a Thule cargo bin for the roof).

All that said, the save the manuals vote goes to the Focus, while the “morbid curiosity vote” goes to a Stinger GT AWD.

Sweet! It helps to have someone elses thoughts in the same place.
The 6, if I got one, would be the Signature. No manual with the new turbo engine they put under the hood, but I'll live. The liftback on the Stinger was unexpected and incredibly useful. Gas mileage isn't a huge concern for me (compared to a truck or something), as long as they're ~24mpg.
You make a good point about residual, though, the chances of buying the lease out on any vehicle would be slim to none. Mainly because higher end, modern cars just have too much dumb junk in them that can quickly make them costly maintenance nightmares if something to awry.

Looking further on value- the Legacy is very nice (much nicer than a WRX), but the Stinger has more standard equipment than either, can be had RWD and probably (more than likely) handles MUCH better than either car. The Stinger doesn't feel like a compromise like the WRX would, referring to the interior. The real outlier here is the Mazda 6 signature. No one has returned a lease quote to me on that car. Probably because its so new.

How about a toyburu, or do you need 4 doors?

All modern Subarus are trash.

Bubba1 wrote: ↑

Sun May 13, 2018 3:20 am

It's a big sedan

The Stinger is tiny. Have you seen one in person?

All modem Subarus are trash.

MinisterofDOOM wrote: ↑

Mon May 14, 2018 2:34 pm

Bubba1 wrote: ↑

Sun May 13, 2018 3:20 am

It's a big sedan

The Stinger is tiny. Have you seen one in person?

Focus and see if it blows. Up.

I'd go cool middle aged dad and get a 6MT Accord Sport.

MinisterofDOOM wrote: ↑

Mon May 14, 2018 2:34 pm

All modern Subarus are trash.

Bubba1 wrote: ↑

Sun May 13, 2018 3:20 am

It's a big sedan

The Stinger is tiny. Have you seen one in person?

I did. At the Philly auto show. Granted it was on a turntable and there was no touchy on the car or spokesmodel (ahem). I thought it was significantly bigger than I thought it would be. Looks like it has a pretty good sized blind spot, but I never sat in it to confirm it.

Desert Rat wrote: ↑

Mon May 14, 2018 12:35 pm

How about a toyburu, or do you need 4 doors?

I....actually have one of those. Should probably update the cars list on here.

MinisterofDOOM wrote: ↑

Mon May 14, 2018 2:34 pm

All modern Subarus are trash.

Bubba1 wrote: ↑

Sun May 13, 2018 3:20 am

It's a big sedan

The Stinger is tiny. Have you seen one in person?

Modern Subarus are definitely trash. Thats why I lease them.

Stinger has a great deal of interior space, especially when you lift that hatchback. Got lucky enough to find a dealer with one over the December holidays. Very fun to drive.


Despite being the same price as the Legacy, the lease for a 6 Signature is approximately $3,400 more over the course of the lease!
Must not be very many incentives. Thats G80 pricing or a higher trim Stinger. Sorry, Mazda.
That price may come down after the initial launch though.

To be that guy...

Have you looked at the stupid cheap leases on the Infiniti Q50s?

RicerX wrote: ↑

Tue May 15, 2018 6:22 am

To be that guy...

Have you looked at the stupid cheap leases on the Infiniti Q50s?

Not yet. Do the rear seats split fold on any of the trims these days?

I'm a die hard manual guy, so the stinger would be off my list.

s***, I'll sell you my focus ST if you want. I'm sort of looking at upgrading to a newer one before they are all gone.

I was gonna mention the Q50 leases, but Zack beat me. Trust me, it makes the Kia Stinger look dumb and is a much better bang for your buck. Get the regular 3.0TT RWD one(not the Red Sport). There are guys tuning them and getting 400+ hp out of them for very little money.

The Stinger is a great option too though, don't get me wrong. The Q50 is just a major lease bargain right now for how much car you are getting.

The Mazda 6 is an amazing car too. Heck our CX-5 regularly impresses me. It shocks me how well it eats up corners and responds. While the Mazda 6 is way lower on the performance specs, I am willing to bet if you get behind the wheel of one you'll fall in love with it. They're a major bargain for what you get too.

I would never recommend a Subaru. Ever. Never hear good things, never have known anyone that has owned one that hasn't been a pile of problems. Considering the issues you had out of your Legacy and now the Impreza, I'd wave bye to them if it were me.

Kompresshun wrote: ↑

Tue May 15, 2018 7:04 pm

I was gonna mention the Q50 leases, but Zack beat me. Trust me, it makes the Kia Stinger look dumb and is a much better bang for your buck. Get the regular 3.0TT RWD one(not the Red Sport). There are guys tuning them and getting 400+ hp out of them for very little money.

The Stinger is a great option too though, don't get me wrong. The Q50 is just a major lease bargain right now for how much car you are getting.

The Mazda 6 is an amazing car too. Heck our CX-5 regularly impresses me. It shocks me how well it eats up corners and responds. While the Mazda 6 is way lower on the performance specs, I am willing to bet if you get behind the wheel of one you'll fall in love with it. They're a major bargain for what you get too.

I would never recommend a Subaru. Ever. Never hear good things, never have known anyone that has owned one that hasn't been a pile of problems. Considering the issues you had out of your Legacy and now the Impreza, I'd wave bye to them if it were me.

The Q50 isn't leasing particularly cheap when you factor in the down payment they want. Its a $450/mo car. Similar to the Mazda 6 Signature.
A friend got the TT Q50 for a rental car recently- that thing could really haul some a**!

I just looked at the CR owner reliability surveys for giggles:

Legacy: above average reliability for every area except one over the last 3 model years: in car electronics - an area many manufacturers have had problems.

Stinger: Too new, no data.

Mazda 6 above average reliability in every area except one (2017 only) surprise, in car electronics.

Ford Focus: well below average. Transmissions seem to be the biggest owner complaint area (they did not specify auto or stick, but I'd guess automatic as they sell a lot more automatics than manuals). The other weak area is the notorious "my ford (bad) touch" infotainment system or whatever the heck they call it now (in car electronics).
the wrx: 2016/17 above average except 2 areas, in car electronic and leaks/noises. 2015 not as good.

I know there are a few guys that bash CR every time they see the letters "CR", but these are owner surveys by subscribers. They are what they are. Enjoy

^ Thanks for posting those, I appreciate it! Does the CR happen to report on each engine for each car?
Headed to check out the Mazda 6 in GT Reserve and Signature Trim after work today. Kinda realized that the Signature trim definitely doesn't contain anything I can't live without if I went a trim level down.

The Legacy R drive will be tomorrow. Got a pretty solid lease quote on that one that I'm pretty happy with but how it drives remains to be seen. Murdock says he enjoys it a lot.

The Kia dealers in my immediate area are really riding the "high" that the cars popularity has given them. None even come close to the lease pricing that people on the forum are getting in other markets. Kinda pisses me off that there is markup. But hey, if they're actually selling them higher, good for them I guess.

Oh yeah, the Ford's trans problems were with the dualclutch auto. I toasted one in Washington one year going through the mountains. Not impressed at all. That being said... way better than a Nissan CVT.
The sticks are good though.

Also, yeah Microsoft sync is pure f*** garbage. I've literally s*** better user interfaces.

The 6 is indeed a very good driver. Handles pretty well, has lots of well delivered torque. Its not 'pin you back in your seat' torque, but its a very consistent and incredibly smooth delivery from tip in to cruising speed. Very different delivery through the rev range from my BRZ.
Interior fit and finish is very nice. The seats STAY heated (instead of just turning off and on over and over) and even the radio control/infotainment controls are very good. I especially like the separate audio volume control knob. Overall, a very good car. Their lease rates are very high though- $459. Even a Grand Reserve is $429. Which, doesn't make sense to me since the 'sport' model leases for $278. :: I figured the Grand Reserve 6 would be in the mid to high 300's, not a few bucks cheaper than the Signature. The experience at this dealership was stellar though. So much so that I wrote a review and a thank you email with praise. I don't shop Merc or BMW, but I'd imagine the service is similar.

Legacy 3.6 is today. We'll see how that goes. I'll check out a Gulia for S&G's too.

It pains me to say this, especially in my line of work where I see the bad side of cars, but Bubba is right. Kia has increased their quality game tremendously. 5 years ago I wouldn't even imagine saying "Id drive that" to ANYTHING KIA or Hyundai manufactured. I have to hand it to them, the Stinger is a great car. I voted stinger

I would envy the crap out of you if you had a Stinger.

Amazing how 10 years ago I'd never say that about anyone with a Korean car.

Modern Subarus are overrated garbage.

frapjap wrote: ↑

Wed May 16, 2018 12:16 pm

Does the CR happen to report on each engine for each car?

At one time they tracked reliability by # cylinders of each model (eg 4 cyl or V6 Altima), but no longer. Now they'll only discuss the engine differences in their individual road tests.

frapjap wrote: ↑

Wed May 16, 2018 4:33 am

The Q50 isn't leasing particularly cheap when you factor in the down payment they want. Its a $450/mo car. Similar to the Mazda 6 Signature.
A friend got the TT Q50 for a rental car recently- that thing could really haul some a**!

The part that isn't advertised is the $3000 lease cash that's often offered by the dealer against the Q50. Know of many that got the advertised monthly lease payment with around $1000 at signing. That, and Infiniti will largely give you anything the month of March, as the end of their fiscal year is in March. August is another hot month - that's when I got $7k off the Q50 I had.

They often have conquest cash available on top of that as well.

The only Infiniti dealer in my area didn't seem to want to play ball and quote me anything via email at all. Even after I tried to appeal to them and told them I do not wish to use what little free time I had and they had over haggling in person when we could negotiate via email. I found surprising because you usually hear really good things about their customer service. Guess they have enough business at that location...

Mazda eventually came back and offered the Grand Touring Reserve at $417. Whoop-de-doo. Still don't understand the nearly $150 difference between the lease for a sport and the lease for a Grand Touring. ::

The Stinger, though cheaper in other markets, couldn't be had for less than $445/mo at 10k miles for a base GT with the 3.3 V6 in my area. I forwarded legitimate quotes from the mid-Atlantic states and Semir, my oh-so-knowledgeable sales guy, said in not so many words that if I didn't buy it from him someone else would and I should buy it somewhere else. Kia needs to fix their dealership model at some locations if they expect to sell such an upmarket car to upmarket clientele. Some kick a**, some suck. The sales guy here was a total sleeze.

I ended up with a damn decent deal on a 3.6R Legacy from a good dealership. The car was kinda my safety net. They forgave the 5 months remaining on my lease, made the first payment for "Subaru loyalty," tossed in the leather protection, and with 0 down, offered the lease at 12k/yr for $359/mo (effectively a sale price of just over 30k). Under budget and plenty of car. Its 100% quieter than my base model Impreza- even with the sunroof open. Power delivery is nice and linear, torque curve is nice, and the engine pulls strong. Handling is decent for a big girl, but it'll mostly live on the highway anyway. The Eyesight thing is pretty kick a**. I'm not one for self driving cars, but adaptive cruise is awesome. Especially in stop and go traffic. I didn't have to work the brakes or accelerator- car did it all. The Harmon Kardon sound system is very, very good. Seats are comfy, and even the rear seats are heated for some reason. Apple car play is neat too. I see why people like it. Overall, can't complain and I'll be much happier with it than my "penalty box" Impreza. Oh, and yes, I still agree that Subaru is overrated- especially if you're buying one. It was hard to argue with the high residual and good offer on the week of Memorial Day weekend.

frapjap wrote: ↑

Wed May 23, 2018 6:10 am

Kia needs to fix their dealership model at some locations if they expect to sell such an upmarket car to upmarket clientele. Some kick a**, some suck. The sales guy here was a total sleeze.

I've NEVER once heard a remotely positive Kia dealership experience story. They're all trashtastic, sleastastic, and worse than the stereotype used car salesman could ever be.

A non-auto-enthusiast friend asked me to go with her to test drive and shop for a new car a couple years ago. We ended up checking out a couple Kias. The lot dude was friendly enough, but I thought it was hilarious that the Kia dealership was more protective of a $13,000 Forte than the Honda dealership had been of a $23,000 HRV. They were so weird about it.
She ended up deciding to buy the Forte, and both salesmen were THE WORST. One kept bragging up "extras" like the stupid flashing CHMSL (which should be illegal and have been proven by research in Europe to make things WORSE, not better, in panic situations) that would cost money. I ended up shutting the guy down and letting him know that he was welcome to take the time and effort to remove the extras, but we would not be paying. He left them for free. So generous.

The finance dude was the sleaziest of all. He argued HARD that she needed an extended warranty. For a car with 5-year bumper-to-bumper and 10-year powertrain warranties, on a 5 year loan. He moved into scare-tactic territory and started telling her that the electronic stuff like the dash isn't covered by those warranties and it's always the first to fail. "So you're telling me the car is unreliable?" Even that didn't shut him up. He was deliberately preying on the uncertainties of a first-time new-car buyer and didn't even bother to hide it. He would talk to my friend, she'd look at me, I'd argue, and he'd ignore me and talk to her. Eventually she asked what I'd do, and I said I'd never even consider the extended warranty (especially for their cost).

Meanwhile, the dealership felt run-down and dirty and the staff all looked too young to even drive the cars they were selling. Not exactly a professional environment.

THEN she had to go back TWICE to re-sign paperwork that overzealous finance douche was too busy upselling to get right.

I've dealt with bad dealerships before, but the single Kia visit was worse than all of them combined, twice over.