What DD car will you buy for $25,000? Something quick enough of the line and midrange.

[AWGD8]

I am close to getting a second car since my wife will soon take my EX35. The car is paid off, but it will be out of warranty starting Sept. 2016.

I really want to experience a V8 powered car and I am looking at Mustang GT. My issue is I like the 2016 new body style, but the new GT is out of my price range. The old body style with boring interior of the 2013-14 fit the price range. Also, might be a problem on winter here in SE WI to drive.

I am also considering a 2013 G37x Sedan , but I might still long to make it go fast! LOL! I have been tweaking throttle tables of some of the G37x sedan and 370z members in the other forum and they send me their dyno at 300+ HP to the wheels with just bolts on and tuned. maybe this is enough for DD?

Also , there are new 4 banger turbos coming out this fall (Golf R , Ford focus RS , etc)

I am just looking for straight line performance within that budget. Not a lot of twisty roads here, but more bully Diesel trucks W/ V8 power.

Maybe an old EVO X and tweak it? Or the 2015 WRX non STI?
I am open for any recommendation.

[dreamingat30fps]

C6 vette? I think you can find one in that price range if you look hard enough.

[NJGuy]

Of the cars you mentioned, I like the G37x or WRX.

G37 because you are already so familiar with the platform and the mods on the EX are pretty much interchangeable.

WRX for something different. It's a decent daily driver with a pretty good reliability record and AWD to cover your concerns for winter weather driving.

I don't really know much about the Focus, but I myself wouldn't consider the VW for long term ownership due to my own preconceived ideas about reliability and dealership reputations. I'd also stay away from an Evo because Mitsubishi is hanging on for dear life here in the US; who knows how much longer they'll have a presence here.

[AWGD8]

Thanks for the recommendations. I am leaning towards the WRX 2015 and the G37x sedan . It seems that for DD fuel economy, the WRX wins between the two.

My 2008 EX35 AWD 5 speed AT , using my owned Economy tune map, I am getting 25.8 MPG (100% Highway on cruise control)

What do you guys get on the 7 speed AT MPG-wise?

[jrmotorsports55]

Can't beat a WRX for the money when it comes to performance and usefulness in bad climates. Only downside is the interiors are kinda cheap, and lacking in tech. I'd stay away from the EVO and VWs. The new Focus RS has the potential to be amazing, but I think it's going to be in STI territory price-wise ($40 ish). The loaner G37x sedans that I had were pretty quick. I've considered one of those used. My wife has the seven speed in her EX, and her mileage is really no better than my 5 speed was. The seven speed takes some getting used to as well.

Best of luck in the search, so many possibilities. I bought the VT for my daily and love it. Not the fastest, but still a lot of fun and it is more laid out than my EX was. Also a stick, and the mileage is amazing. My father in law just picked up a Ecoboost Stang, pretty cool car. The ride is amazing. Just not a practical winter car.

Jason

[AWGD8]

Thanks again for the recommendation Jason.
I really like the EX35. It has a very solid feel and comfort to drive, but I realized that it is really a very heavy crossover to use for DD.
The G37x sedan's fuel milage is probably much better than the EX35 in the real world scenario. The G is around 300-200 Ibs lighter and has 2 overdrive gears vs my 5 speed.

I do understand now the reason you bought the VT.
Right now the EX is still underwarranty and it seems like I have a very tiny oil weep behind the top passenger timing chain cover. I am worry that if the warranty is over, I really do not want to shell out $$$ for repairs.

[jrmotorsports55]

Yeah, I loved my EX, just needed something a little less costly to operate. So many options out there. I'm really looking forward to the QX30 when it comes out. We'll see what that has to offer.

[meanie]

Prior to getting my 2011 EX 35 (which has a 7 AT) I had a 2010 G37xS. It seemed much quicker than the 10% hp boost over the 3.5 would suggest. Weight and aerodynamics I suppose. There are lots of bolt ons available both new and used. I put on a CAI which before and after dynos by one forum member indicated added about 14 HP at the wheels. I routinely got 22-23 mpg in mixed driving vs 18-20 for the EX. The interior isn't as nice as the EX and it seemed a bit more jittery on the highway as the tires wore (18 inch wheels), but the handling was sweet. If you really feel the need for AWD I think your options are limited, but if you are primarily interested in straight line performance there are lots of possibilities, but I would suggest narrowing down whether you want front or rear wheel drive (the former being better for winter, the latter for handling), and what you need for seating/cargo. For example, if a two seater with rear drive is no problem (assuming you are looking pre-owned) the C6 Corvette got suprisingly good highway mileage, (but is probably a lousy winter car) or the last generation Mustang 6 cylinder had a 300hp mill and a light body that reportedly got up to 30 mpg highway. The Hyundai Genesis Coupe is somewhat underated, and I assume is probably not too costly on the used market. Most often though as HP goes up mpg goes down, which is a bummer since we are in a muscle car golden age that eclipses even the late 60's early 70's with compelling vehicles from all the Amercian manufacturers. Even bread and butter mid size cars like a Camry sport 6 are surprisingly fast. Hell, my wife's 2012 Camry Hybrid has 200 hp, has plenty of oomph for the highway, and routinely gets 40-44 mpg. I have a buddy with a 6 ecoboost F150 that he gety 22 mpg with (2 wheel drive) and is pumping out over 350 hp. Go test drive a bunch of things and have some fun!

[AWGD8]

Meanie, thanks for the input and recommendation.
I was looking at the 2015 WRX on you tube and those straight line performance off the line is not promising, unless you rev the RPM at 5k to do a quick standstill launch.

I am leaning on the G37x sedan for now , but still open for anything coming this fall. Yes, i need an AWD. It seems that to get both performance and fuel economy, you need a lighter boosted car or more $$. =)

[serotta]

You can easily find a Corvette Z06 (2003 or 4) in that price range with fairly low miles. I have a 2003 Z and get 19 around town and 29 or 30 on the highway. The issue for me would be a DD in your neck of the woods. I have also owned a Turbo Subaru. I would find a WRX in the price range and never look back. Great car for the Northern US. Not so good on gas, but certainly a worthy DD with all the acceleration you could ever use.

[meanie]

Beyond the WRX or EVO for AWD I think you mostly are looking at the luxury marques (Acura, Audi, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus and Mercedes), and their comparable compact and mid size sport coupe/sedan machines. All have their various stengths and weaknesses and price points. The German cars seem to be perceived as prone to reliability problems, but if you could find a used M3 it would fill your need for speed, although probably at a high price point. An Audi S might be cheaper, but I am not sure would be much faster than a G. Mercedes has a host of high HP cars. I think the Lexus IS F is supposed to be very powerful, but there tend to be complaints about an overly stiff suspension, although you can't beat Lexus reliability. Not sure what Acura has in used cars. If you stay with a G see if you can find an xS to try out. Some were sticks (unfortunately not the AWD ones) , but the 7 ATs have really nice paddle shifters and a bolstered drivers seat (not everyone finds it comfortable, I did) as well as a few cosmetic goodies. Even better would be an IPL, which I think gets around 350 hp. Since it is the same engine a few performance bolt ons and remapping would probably bring any G 37 up to that level. If you could find one the mid sized M56 had a 420 hp V8, but I presume mileage to match. Best of all, but probably out of reach financially would be a Nissan GTR, aka Godzilla. It gives exotic car performance at a starting price of 100K, but when it first came out was in the 70-80k range. I am not sure where that would leave 09-10 models, but probably 40k and up, mostly up. They are AWD though!

[NJGuy]

Beyond the WRX or EVO for AWD I think you mostly are looking at the luxury marques (Acura, Audi, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus and Mercedes), and their comparable compact and mid size sport coupe/sedan machines.

Not sure what Acura has in used cars.

While I do like Acuras, I don't believe they offer anything better than the G37x from a performance perspective, which AWGD8 is focused on. The TL with SH-AWD is a bigger car and has 20+ less HP than the G37. The TSX I think is closer in size to the G37, but it comes in FWD only and has even less HP than the TL. If I were in a similar situation, I would actually consider the TL because it looks like it's the only Japanese mid-size sedan available with a V6, AWD, and a 6 speed MT. However, finding one that meets AWGD8's age and pricing criteria would probably be close to impossible.

hmmm... now I think I'm starting to tempt myself into shopping for one .

[AWGD8]

Thanks for the suggestions serotta!

[AWGD8]

meanie,

So far I am considering the G37x sedan, but I am also open for a used Q50.
Maybe wait next year? Though, I find the Q50 boring to drive, but very relaxing, I might go for it if the price is right.


I'll just stay away from 2014 Q50. (Lots of issues )

[AWGD8]

NJ, do Honda/Acura engines have better torque now? I find Honda likes to over rate their HP ratings, but short on torque. They always inlfate their HP by 30+

[meanie]

I think a good time to buy preowned is when lease terms are up. If the typical lease is 3 years (probably easy enough to check this at a dealer) then a number of cars should be coming back in at that point, and greater supply usually works in the buyer's favor. I have also found that while Infiniti dealers have more stock, prices on used Infinitis tend to be lower at other dealers. A saleman told me that around here (greater Boston) the dealers try to buy up used machines on non Infiniti lots to keep tighter reign on the market (i.e. keep prices high). I like the looks of the Q50, hate the name change, but am baffled that beyond adding the hybrid option, the power train is the same as the G37. The renamed G37 (Q 40) is an interesting prospect since they had to drop the prices to keep distance from the Q50. I think this is the last year of production. I don't know how they are selling but Infiniti tends to offer dramatic deals/incentives for left overs they want to move, so if they are not selling there may be fabulous deals on brand new left over Q 40s come the fall. A car I hadn't considered, but which got terrific reviews and is quite quick is the Volvo S60, especially the T-6. Plus they are nice looking for a Volvo.

[NJGuy]

NJ, do Honda/Acura engines have better torque now? I find Honda likes to over rate their HP ratings, but short on torque. They always inlfate their HP by 30+

I know in the past you could see Honda's motorcycle roots in their cars, where the engines were small in displacement, high revving, and highly strung. Low end torque? "What's that?" asked Honda . I'd say their engines now make better torque numbers than in the past, but I wouldn't ever call Honda/Acura a class leader in the HP/Torque department. For a lot of their cars I've never really looked for dyno plots to compare with the manufacturer's ratings.

10+ years ago, there was no industry standard as to how to measure an engine's power and torque numbers. So manufacturers were all over the place with the numbers that they published. I think about 9 years ago, there was a new SAE standard that came out for measuring engine performance. Honda started following it and they published new peak HP/Torque numbers. As a result of using the new standard, I think most of their engines, while unchanged, had lower numbers than the prior year.

From my casual and informal interwebz 'research' and reading, here are my opinions. Honda/Acura's published engine performance numbers look pretty accurate, where the dyno plots (when accounting for drive line losses) seem to match the engine ratings. While I haven't seen their dyno charts, Hyundai/Kia seem to overrate their engines. This is more apparent in the times derived from instrumented track testing. I wouldn't be too surprised with this, as they overrated the EPA fuel economy ratings on some of their cars as well. The Germans, on the other hand, appear to underrate their engines. The HP at the wheels seem to be just a hair shy of what the engines are actually rated at. I haven't read enough about other manufacturers to see if they had any trends in regards to reporting engine performance. Again, please note that these are only my own personal opinions .

[NJGuy]

A saleman told me that around here (greater Boston) the dealers try to buy up used machines on non Infiniti lots to keep tighter reign on the market (i.e. keep prices high). I like the looks of the Q50, hate the name change, but am baffled that beyond adding the hybrid option, the power train is the same as the G37. The renamed G37 (Q 40) is an interesting prospect since they had to drop the prices to keep distance from the Q50. I think this is the last year of production. I don't know how they are selling but Infiniti tends to offer dramatic deals/incentives for left overs they want to move, so if they are not selling there may be fabulous deals on brand new left over Q 40s come the fall.

I found the tidbit on the dealer practice of controlling supply and price on used Infinitis quite interesting. It doesn't seem to surprise me.

I think the Q40 is an interesting prospect as well. I think Infiniti could easily afford to drop the price on it, as the capital investments and tooling for that model (except for the badge on the trunk ) have probably been paid off a while ago. Not only did they have to drop the price to distance it from the Q50, but I think Infiniti needed some sort of stopgap solution in the entry level luxury market to attract younger buyers. The G25 was short lived. Also, the pricing of luxury cars across the board has steadily crept up, so BMW's 320, Mercedes' CLA, Audi's A3, and Acura's ILX were spawned to get younger buyers into those brands. I think Infiniti wanted to at least try to stay in the game and fill a void in their product portfolio with the Q40 while everyone waits for the QX30 to come out.

[meanie]

I agree they need more of an entry level model. The G25 was a loser. I got one as a loner once. It not only was a serious dog, but inexplicably the mileage wasn't particularly better than the G37. They also restricted most of the luxury and option packages so that it was pretty bare bones. The G37 has accounted for most of Infiniti's sales for years, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the Q50 makeover is primarily cosmetic and interior appointments. The dimensions, overall shape, and powertrain haven't really changed, but why take the chance of messing with a winning formula? Yet, when I reflect on what other companies are doing with turbos, direct injection, cylinder deactivation, lighter materials and, of course, hybrids, it seems like an opportunity missed. The planned upcoming models are compelling, although I worry a bit about the Mercedes connection. My mother in law had a lightly used E 350 that she got rid of after a few years due to expensive and frequent repairs.

[AWGD8]

Great info and suggestions guys! My EX is in the shop again . ( See my new thread that I started )

Now that car is in the shop with known vq oil leak issue, I am holding off considering getting a G. I was surprised that they will work on my car the following day and have a Q50s AWD hybrid loaner ready.
This is the second time I drive a Q50. The first one was a 2015 Q50 awd only. Both are boring to drive , but If I have to choose I will take the non hybrid one. The hybrid is very inconsistent with the power delivery. Sometimes it is quick other times it is boring flat. Maybe bec. they gave me a 2014 version?
I heard the rwd hybrid does 4.9 secs 0-60... The full time gas engine is smoother.

When I told my wife the cost of the oil leak to fix my EX35, she agrees that we might trade in the car before the warranty expires. $200-250 a month car payment for a $25,000 car is not bad if I get a certified used one. I do not think I can afford to pay any transmission or engine issue in the future without warranty. Warranty is cheap! Peace of mind is priceless....

[AWGD8]

So i found the window sticker of the loaner car they gave me and found out it is worth $51k

Also the HP is 360 and has 472 Foot pounds of torque (combined gas and electric)

Sadly, I did not feel an orgasmic amount of torque, i guess maybe the car is too silky smooth and quiet.

I wonder if it is the same as the 2015 hybrid?

[meanie]

If they are using a hybrid as a shop loaner they must not be selling very well, as it is an expensive car to put free miles on. The reviewers typically describe it as fast and a really comfortable highway car, but generally dump on the drive by wire feel and handling, and really hate the brakes. Regenrative braking is something Toyota has gotten right but has been a problem for some other companies. The 0-60 numbers are (I think) faster than the G37, which always felt pretty quick, so I wonder what has changed. Infiniti has always promoted their linear power curve (is that an oxymoron?) which they had a particular term to describe. I have found that with both the G and the EX the smooth, building acceleration doesn't feel particularly dramatic unless I row my own. Did you try manual shifting?

[AWGD8]

Meanie, as I read further regarding the 2014 Q50s AWD hybrid performance off the line, it is the quickest of the bunch. Magazine tested it @ 4.8 secs 0-60 MPH and 13.5 secs 1/4 mile @ 102.9 ET. The power is there, but it does not overwhelm you with torque that pins you to the seat. (The midrange is pronounced once the momentum builds) It is just too smooth and power is linear. There are times that i felt a sling shot feel taking off from standstill, but the torque seems controlled. ( As I mentioned not all the time, very inconsistent feel) Unlike the V8 power, the whole twisting force is instant and could make you loose control of the line.

Yes, I used both Manual (paddle shifter) and D mode. On manual mode, the power is short since when it is starts to pull, it cuts off when you shift. On D mode I could feel the torque or power better since I do not have to shift and the forward momentum is continuos.. Definitely quicker than the gas version, but the transmission on the hybrid , most of the time can be caught sleeping when using D mode. Yes, I did set it up on Performance mode too.

When cruising and under EV light on, the tach is at 0 RPM while cruising. There are times when I start the car from the parking light, I could not hear a thing. Then as I drove around the engine is not running at all , the battery is only driving the wheels. No sound as I navigate around the parking lot. (RPM @ O ). Just weird!

Handling is great ! The steering gets firm on performance mode and I am sure the 19" rims with a 40 series tire profile helps a lot!
Breaks is very sensitive, it grabs too much...

[NJGuy]

Ha, check this out. It looks like Nissan likes to keep building and selling old models when the new models have been on the market for some time (i.e. Rogue). The article does mention the Q40. And they're not the only ones either; GM seems to do it as well.

http://jalopnik.com/nissan-is-selling-o ... 1708504803

[AWGD8]

NJguy, that is very interesting. Yes, it is very obvious that the new Q40 is just the remainder of the last G37 sedan with a new badge.

BTW, can anyone pick this up now? 2 years ago, this cost around $50+ grand!
http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-BMW ... =105068074

0-60 MPH = 4.6 secs
1/4 = 13.3 secs@107 MPH.

[meanie]

Thanks for the review AWGD8. You make the hybrid sound more appealing than the reviewers. Now that they are adding that technology to the QX60 (ie. JX) almost half the current line up will offer a hybrid model. I'd really like that option for a QX50, but suspect it would be too pricey. The quiet accelerartion can seem freaky, my wife has a Camry Hybrid and it makes little electronic grunts to warn away unwary pedestrians. I was checking reviews on the G37 IPLs and to my surprise most folks found it way too little bang for fairly serious bucks. It seems to me a better deal is to get a lightly used G37 (or new Q40) and add a grand or two of bolt ons (CAI, exhaust, remapping, and perhaps heavier sway bars) that should yield performance to equal or better the IPL and come close to the hybrid. The My G37 site has lots of accounts of people trying various mods, some used stuff for sale, and online vendors that offer deals.

[AWGD8]

meanie,

After driven the Q50s hybrid AWD for 3 days. I just found out some tricks. If you want to accelerate quickly from dead stop, you only need to press the break halfway, just enough for the break to grab. Doing this will prevent the engine to switch to electric. When you floor it there is no delay on the take off. So the engine and electric will work together side by side giving you 472 foot pounds of torque!

I am just worried about the reliability with this car in the long run, specially the battery which is very expensive to replace. But the smoothness and power is like a spaceship feel. No noisy growl like the V8 and yet it accelerate like one! The passing power in the highway is unbelievable... smooth and effortless.

When I dropped it off at the Infiniti dealership and rolled out with my EX35, there is no comparison...

[NJGuy]

I was checking reviews on the G37 IPLs and to my surprise most folks found it way too little bang for fairly serious bucks. It seems to me a better deal is to get a lightly used G37 (or new Q40) and add a grand or two of bolt ons (CAI, exhaust, remapping, and perhaps heavier sway bars) that should yield performance to equal or better the IPL and come close to the hybrid. The My G37 site has lots of accounts of people trying various mods, some used stuff for sale, and online vendors that offer deals.

The G37 was also praised on Jalopnik a few days ago.

Typically I wouldn't consider a model from a luxury brand to be a good value, but in this case it seems that you actually get a lot of car for the money.

[AWGD8]

I will be checking out this car on Saturday. I might trade in the Ex35 and get this one if it is pristine clean as the sales guy promised. ( i know not to trust them, but they only take 5 star car rating )

It is a CPO for $22,000 with less than 23k miles.

http://www.infinitiofnaperville.com/cer ... 5c2a65.htm


What do you guys think?

[meanie]

So, I was at my dealer's today for an oil change and walked about the show room. Still getting use to the new designations, and since they had a theme (all the cars were Pearl White) was getting confused when I saw that the regular 3.7 but fully loaded Q50, Q70 (old M), and QX60 (old JX) all had 55k stickers, while the lowly QX50 (EX) came in at 43k (adding the Touring pack would have made it about 45k). The G use to sticker under the EX, but now, not counting the soon to be discontinued Q40, the QX50 appears to be the entry level vehicle. I wonder if the price will go up substantially when the 2016 mildly refreshed model comes out?

AWGD8, I don't know what is a good price for a 2 year old G in your area, but if you check sites like Autotrader for comparison you can figure it out. I haven't found that NADA or Kelly Blue Book accurately reflect what things really sell for locally. You will pay a bit more for a CPO, and of course, when a trade in is involved you have to look hard at what they are offering you for that versus what you could bargain them down to without a trade. While only 2 years old the 2016s should be out in 3 months or so, and while 22k miles sounds good, my sense is that value drops precipitously at 30k miles. I don't know why since they are not even close to out of warranty. If looking at 2013s you might try to find one with mileage in the low teens and compare prices. On the other hand I bought my 2010 G37xS in 2012 for 33k with 12,000 miles on it, and eventhough it was the S model with nav, it was probably not as pristine as what you are looking at. I suspect the price drop involved in keeping the Q40 in the lineup has affected G resell values, so I really am unsure what kind of deal this is.