Want freedom? Want liberty? UPDATE

[AZhitman]

...or not? If you do, you gotta take the good with the bad.

Unfortunately, it seems, someone didn't get the memo:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/afgh ... ests_N.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... tml?hpt=T1

While details are sketchy, let me see if I got this right:

Some wackjob burns a Quran. People in another country protest that act, that occurred half a world away, under a Constitution that grants those rights. Then the people protesting the act are attacked?

I'm WAAAAY confused.

Then, the head of state in Afghanistan wants the US to PUNISH the guy for burning a book? Hell, we burn OUR OWN FLAG here in the US! C'mon, Hamid - Get a grip. That's what FREEDOM looks like.

[telcoman]

Here a wack job, there a bunch of wack jobs, seems there all over the world all chanting my religion is better then yours.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/02/world ... ml?_r=1&hp

Good thing we can't discuss the topic here.

Telcoman

[mattblancarte]

seems there all over the world all chanting my religion is better then yours.

This is mostly accurate.

[bigbadberry3]

Chanting would be A-OK, it's the beheadings and such that piss me off.

[themadscientist]

Ah religion. So passionate, so hypocritical, so ironic. And they wonder why the separation of church and state are so important. The frosting on the cake, Howie trying to establish equality of judgment. As long as those Muslims vote for Democrats, it's all good. Burn all the books you want, you can't kill an idea as easy, any idea.

[IBCoupe]

They're not flipping out because of religion, unless you can point to widespread riots in other Muslim countries. I haven't heard anything of the sort, but I haven't looked very hard.

They're flipping out because WE'RE THERE, and apparently WE'RE making a thing of religion. Granted, our military's not, and our politicians aren't, but that kind of distinction gets lost when in your mind, your country is being "occupied" by "America."

It's the same trend with suicide attacks. Suicide bombings don't trend along religious lines, they trend along a perception of foreign occupation.

[R/T Hemi]

@ Greg.


Many people equate a constitutional right to do something as a green light to do it. This is a new spin on a rather old story. All these things done in the name of one's God are. {and here I stop least I step over that no religion line} anyway, having not said what I'd like to have said, that's all I've got to say about that. I'd say there are religious nutjobs on both sides of the ocean.

[themadscientist]

I tend to view my rights expanding out until they meet another person's rights "bubble." At that point I stop proliferating mine and respect the boundaries of theirs if they are equitable and I expect the same.

[AZhitman]

We'll burn whatever-the-F*** we please. Flags, Bibles, Mein Kampf, brassieres, Qurans, draft cards, effigies... you name it, we'll burn it.

Don't like it? Don't care. There is really no further discussion to be had.

IB, I think in THIS particular case, this had more to do with the book burning. Sure, our "being there" doesn't help, but that's so sketchy (please help - no, go away - wait, come back - get out now - we want democracy - America sucks)... who knows?

p.s. R/T - I'm pretty sure I agree with what you'd have said if you'd have said it.

[themadscientist]

Don't forget rubber. Give me burnouts or give me prius!

[AZhitman]

Oooh. I forgot that one.

Yep, I did a TON of damage to Algore's panties today...

We took 4 classic Datsuns (no emissions required due to antique insurance coverage and historic vehicle plates), the Vette, the Frontier and the Cube across town to a benefit car show... HUGE caravan with NICO peeps coming in from CA to help us drive. Laid down a few smokies during the trip.

[themadscientist]

Patrick Henry would want a Skyline.

[IBCoupe]

IB, I think in THIS particular case, this had more to do with the book burning. Sure, our "being there" doesn't help, but that's so sketchy (please help - no, go away - wait, come back - get out now - we want democracy - America sucks)... who knows?

Of course it had to do with the book burning, but that's not the whole of the equation, otherwise we'd see rioting elsewhere, too. This still seems to be limited to small portions of Afghanistan.

When a country invades you and there are people saying that it's a war against Islam, you might not believe them. You might be aware, for example, of Muslim countries that are friendly with this invading country.

But then you hear that they're piling up your holy book and burning them. Yeah, maybe most people in Afghanistancan tell the difference, but from what I know of riots, it doesn't matter how many reasonable people are there; unreasonable people will handle things just fine on their own.

But again: this isn't about religion, or, at least, it's not primarily about religion. It's a tangential factor that just happens to feed into the tribal impulses already at play.

[AZhitman]

^ I'll buy that for a dollar....

[AppleBonker]

^ I'll buy that for a dollar....

I love you, Greg.

[AZhitman]

By the way: MSNBC contributor Bobby Ghosh says: “Burning a Quran is ‘Much’ Worse than Burning a Bible”.

Who the hell pays these people to say stupid s***?

[IBCoupe]

That's not quite what he said. He said that the Koran to Muslims is not the same as the Bible to Christians. The New Testament is acknowledged by Christians to be a retelling of the story of Jesus by people who were there. According to Ghosh, the Koran is actually believed to be the literal words of God.

[themadscientist]

Don't care. Their freedom of religion ends at trying to harm others based on it.

[IBCoupe]

What was that responding to?

[HashiriyaS14]

Don't care. Their freedom of religion ends at trying to harm others based on it.

^^
This.

The level of offense to Muslims due to said behavior is totally irrelevant. You can't harm someone for offending you, no matter how bad it is, at least not in the United States.

It could be the word of God, it could be physically written by God, it could be God's copy in God's bookshelf. If you kill someone for burning it, it's all the same (under the law).

It pisses me off when people do lots of things, but that doesn't mean I get to go kill them. I have to suck it up.

[AppleBonker]

Who was arguing that they should be allowed to harm anyone?

[stebo0728]

The thing that I always wonder, if it pisses God (Allah) off so much that someone burns his book, why doesnt he strike them dead? Why do the lowly brethren have to do the dirty work? If God's not willing to seek retribution, why should his followers?

Hope that wasnt too religious in nature ....

[IBCoupe]

Stebo, there's this guy sitting in his house, and it's raining. Over the radio, he hears a warning: There's a flood brewing, and folk should evacuate. The man says, "I am a good man. I pray. God loves me. God will save me."

The waters rise and a man in a boat rows up to the man, standing on his front porch. The man in the boat yells, "Come with me, and we'll escape to safety." the man replies, "I am a good man. I pray. God loves me. God will save me." the man in the boat rows away.

The waters rise, and the man is on his roof when a helicopter approaches. From a loudspeaker, the pilot says, "I'm lowering a ladder. Climb up and we'll take you to safety." The man looks up and shouts, "I am a good man! I pray! God loves me, and God will save me!"

The man drowns. Standing at the Pearly Gates, he demands an audience with God. He says, "God, I was a good man. I prayed. I thought you loved me. Why didn't you save me?"

God replied, "You idiot! I sent you a radio message, a boat, and a helicopter! What the heck are you doing here?"

Yes, I stole that from The West Wing. Stebo, did it ever occur to you (or to the Preacher) that the riots might just be God's will.

[Eikon]

Yes, I stole that from The West Wing. Stebo, did it ever occur to you (or to the Preacher) that the riots might just be God's will.

Let's not go there! Bad idea!


Instead, I like this tangent... I LOVE The West Wing TV show. I think it's my favorite TV show of all time. Even though they are democrats in office.. lol

[stebo0728]

That little bit is actually way older than The West Wing, I heard it from the pulpit once 20 years ago, and no telling where he got it from.

And you make a good point but I cant expound upon why without risking permaban so I'll leave it dangling.

Cheers!

[IBCoupe]

Haha, I'm sure it is older. That's just the only place I heard it, and the question you asked, Stebo, though I'm pretty sure you weren't completely serious, made me think of it.

And the West Wing was probably one of the last great dramas on network television. I have a theory that, for every political issue, there's a West Wing clip for that.

[AZhitman]

That's not quite what he said. He said that the Koran to Muslims is not the same as the Bible to Christians.

I don't give a damn. He's no expert, and he's wrong. He needs to quit being an apologist.

Hash said it best.

[AppleBonker]

That's not quite what he said. He said that the Koran to Muslims is not the same as the Bible to Christians.

I don't give a damn. He's no expert, and he's wrong

Are you claiming you are an expert?

Edit: I've heard Muslims make the same claim. I have no idea if it is true (Bible = stories about God, Quran = word of God). Fact is, I don't know that it's being an apologist. If I use the word "retard" in public a lot whilst mocking things, it's probably more likely that I'm gonna get stuck in the jaw by a parent with a handicapped child. While not condoning the violent act, I understand how my actions may have contributed to it.

Let's be honest here, have we seen a history of violence out of a segment of the Muslim population? What would we expect to happen if we taunt/tease them?

[stebo0728]

Haha, I'm sure it is older. That's just the only place I heard it, and the question you asked, Stebo, though I'm pretty sure you weren't completely serious, made me think of it.

And the West Wing was probably one of the last great dramas on network television. I have a theory that, for every political issue, there's a West Wing clip for that.

Well I was only half serious, although I do tend to say alot of times, if God wanted it done, he'd do it himself, but I get the relevance of your little story too ...

[stebo0728]

Let's be honest here, have we seen a history of violence out of a segment of the Muslim population? What would we expect to happen if we taunt/tease them?

AND ....... [drumroll] ....... the terrorists win.