VP Debate:

[AZhitman]

My thoughts: Can we just jettison BO and JM and keep JB and SP as our candidates?

What'd you guys think of the VP debates?

[USsil80]

My thoughts: Can we just jettison BO and JM and keep JB and SP as our candidates?

What'd you guys think of the VP debates?

i agree they took the questions more to the point and i thought talked more to the people... i think SP won... she showed more of herself and more to the people...

[skylndrftr]

Its kinda hard to lose a debate when your participating in one that exists only in your own head and only with questions you feel like answering...

She got creamed. She looked stupid. If JB had been allowed to respond to the ridiculous and inappropriate things she said she probably would have started crying.

EDIT: a beer to whoever can provide a documented example of anyone besides Sarah Palin giving a 'shout out' during a serious presidential or VP debate...fail

[APEXi240]

So after the debate I am flipping between Fox News and NBC, and everyone was stating how well they thought Sarah Palin did, I'm guessing there was something I missed?

Nothing bothers me more than when a politician does not answer a question directly. Palin did that quite often in the debate. To me that came across as her not being able to answer the question, or defend a specific position, whether that was actually the case or not.

Also the moderator was absolutely horrible. How can you honestly ask the VP candidates "What are the causes of global warming?". I'm sorry I thought I was supposed to be watching a debate, not a history lesson.

[Eikon]

EDIT: a beer to whoever can provide a documented example of anyone besides Sarah Palin giving a 'shout out' during a serious presidential or VP debate...fail

A beer to whoever can provide an example of the last candidate that acted like a normal American. She did a nice job of showing her intelligence, yet speaking to the public likes shes one of them. Sorry you can't see that skylndrftr. Perhaps if you took off the dem goggles and you'd see things as they are???

[ishkabibble]

The moderator needed to cut Palin off and get her back on topic.

Very unproductive debate IMO.

[skylndrftr]

she didn't speak like a regular American. She struggled to remember the closest to relevant answer to the question she was (or sometimes wasn't asked). An American would answer the question he or she was asked, not the one she remembered.

Perfect example "her answer to a tax question was about her record on green energy. classic. Pathetic but classic.

[AZhitman]

Thanks for all your partisan nonsense.

Neither candidate answered the questions in every instance. There were a couple cases where both completely ignored the moderator's question (she didn't do a very good job, btw) and went off on an unrelated, canned tangent.

I find it very hard to dislike Joe Biden, despite our obvious differences of opinion.

[ishkabibble]

A beer to whoever can provide an example of the last candidate that acted like a normal American.

Dubya.

How do I collect?

[skylndrftr]

@ish...link? video?

@AZ

seriously? She actually said she wasn't going to answer the questions. She just talked about whatever she could remember. I'm not being partisan I'm being embarrassed that shes up for election to an office of power in my country.

[Jesda]

I like both Biden and Palin more after this debate.

Too bad the men at the top of their tickets aren't so amazing.

[sanioll]

I am a democrat in this election, and believe it or not Palin did better than my expectations. Biden on the other hand was told to hold back, and not attack her.

Her focus was herself, Biden's focus was attacking Mccain. They both did a decent job.

I watched CNN and their audience feedback meter ( modern clapping tool ), and felt like the meter guides the TV watchers favoritism. That meter is not a good idea.

EDITED BY MYSELF: removed last comments*****
Modified by sanioll at 12:16 AM 10/3/2008

[wingFeather]

Palin did an amazing job. She took charge, had great (truthful) answers, wisdom, sincerity... and all at the right times! Well done. She looks like the clear winner this time!

[wingFeather]

She actually said she wasn't going to answer the questions.

That is not exactly what she said. Please review her answer again.

[SmithSR]

Greg you are a typical Arizona republican. Ex: "Can we just jettison BO and JM and keep JB and SP as our candidates?" That says it right there.

WTF does that mean? Or have to do with...anything related to the VP debate?

Both Palin and Biden spent plenty of time hitting their talking points. Good show. They both did their jobs.

People are finding faults based on their own point of view here...

At least the Obama apologist debate moderator Gwen Ifill didn't make such an obvious point as to promote her pick(and subject of her new book). She stands to personally profit from an Obama election win, in the form of book sales.

The title of Ifill’s book? “Breakthrough: Politics and Race in the Age of Obama.”

[sanioll]

Oh no, my mistake, sorry Greg, I take that back.

Misread that. Thought he said jettison BO and Biden.

[audtatious]

Good debate. Palin did quite well and did not get crushed by Biden. I highly doubt Biden was "holding back"

Palin stumbled a bit. She mentioned we are at pre-surge numbers in Iraq while we actually have 3k additional troops and she made a couple other stumbles as well. Nothing major.

Biden had his own screw ups:

1) While attacking Vice President d!ck Cheney, Biden said the vice president's only role is to support the president and to preside over the Senate "only in a time when in fact there's a tie vote. The Constitution is explicit." The Constitution, though, actually says the vice president is always president of the Senate.

2) He stated the ice cap is melting in his rant about MMGW and that is incorrect

3) 10+ years for getting "new oil" which is incorrect. We are looking at 1-2 years in some areas.

4) Stated he was for offshore drilling when in fact he has in fact compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.

5) He stated both Bush and Obama voted the same on the bill increasing taxes on individuals making over $42k/yr and that is incorrect. The bill went nowhere anyway but I guess that's not the point.

6) Obama did say he would meet directly with Ahmedinijad. Biden should have gotten that right as he attacked Obama for the statement

7) Biden stated he was for clean coal when in fact he has constantly stated there should be no coal plants in America. He even stated that coal was more dangerous than terrorism.

8) Stated McCain will raise taxes on healthcare when in fact McCain gives a tax credit to offset any increases

9) Alaska is NOT getting windfall profits from the oil companies

10) Gen. David D. McKiernan actually stated that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan. Palin had it correct

11) He stated McCain weakened regulation of financial institutes when we all know McCain helped bring the issue to light and called for more regulation

12) He the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the "G-20".

13) He was wrong in saying the Obama tax rates would be equal to Reagan's taxation. It would be higher.

14) He said that 100 million families would be affected by McCain's Medical plan. There are not 100 million families in the USA.

Now, if you want to argue the above, please do so. Find your facts and post them to show the above wrong. It's up to you to prove my points wrong not me to do your homework for you.

[APEXi240]

1) While attacking Vice President d!ck Cheney, Biden said the vice president's only role is to support the president and to preside over the Senate "only in a time when in fact there's a tie vote. The Constitution is explicit." The Constitution, though, actually says the vice president is always president of the Senate.

While I agree with you that Biden misspoke the point he made was correct. His point was that the Vice President is supposed to be an executive position, and not a legislative one. The only legislative duty being voting in the case of a tie. Also, typically the Vice President does not reside over the Senate whenever it is in session.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...tates

The Vice President of the United States is designated by the Constitution as the President of the Senate. The Vice President holds a tie breaking vote in the Senate and does not usually preside over the Senate. Since its conception, the role of casting a tie-breaking vote in the Senate has been exercised 242 times. The Vice President of the United States with the most tie breaking votes is John Adams with 29. If there is no sitting Vice President then the President pro tempore of the United States Senate serves as President of the Senate. In practice, freshman senators are traditionally assigned the role of presiding over the Senate in order to learn Senate procedure.

In addition, being the President of the Senate with no consistant voting authority (being able to vote on every issue), the position can be considered executive, not legislative.

9) Alaska is NOT getting windfall profits from the oil companies

Exactly what do you mean by this? She imposed windfall taxes on oil companies which generate revenue for the state of Alaska...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.c....htmlhttp://www.mccainfactcheck.com...shtmlhttp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/...=home

So, while Alaska is not simply "getting windfall profits" they are taxing said profits.
Modified by APEXi240 at 2:09 AM 10/3/2008

[audtatious]

It's not a windfall profit. That's what Obama wants, punish the oil companies based on their profits based at a flat percentage increase.

The Alaska Constitution has a requirement that the people must share directly in the state’s mineral wealth, thus the oil industry is taxed. When Palin came in as Gov, the state of Alaska was in a financial crisis. She worked in a bipartisan effort to increase the current 10% mineral tax, which was kept in place at that rate due to what seems to be the oil companies lining others pockets, to 25%. There is a escalator clause where the rate is dropped back to 10% during lean times in order to keep the oil companies from being crushed by high taxes when they are not in a boom like they are today. There are also additional incentives to developing new resources as well. It is effectively a risk-and-profit-sharing plan.

This is FAR different than a "windfall" profit which is simply a flat tax increase penalty with no constitutional requirement for such as they have in Alaska.

[smockers83]

Both made false statements. I was able to take issue more with what Biden was saying than I could with Palin, not because I disagreed with him but because he was using victimization tactics and didn't seem to understand certain issues. One of my biggest gripes with him was his constant use of Exxon Mobil as a victimization and also that he doesn't seem to understand.

What we need is a debate where the moderator has all the facts in front of them or people are in the back doing fact checking as the debate is going on and the moderator corrects and calls them out on them. Otherwise people who support either side are going to say their side won. If we have constant and real time fact checking, we can actually see who knows their stuff.

Also, using polls like the networks are using to determine who won is ridiculous. The polls are influenced by those who have already predetermined who won because they've already decided who they're voting for. Plus you have uneducated people (doesn't mean people who aren't smart, just ones that don't keep up to snuff) who are going to believe things that were actually false.

[audtatious]

Yeah, it would be nice to have "truth" directed to each candidate in each debate.

The more people who look at the debate the more information concerning mistakes are coming out. Palin made more mistakes than I noticed while somewhat listening to the debate itself and Biden seems to have made more than I listed above as well.

[APEXi240]

http://www.investopedia.com/te...x.asph ... rofits_tax

It doesn't state in either of the two links I read that a windfall tax has to be a flat rate.

In addition, you are correct and I misread the articles I posted that it was a windfall tax. However, it does seem like this revamped "progressive oil tax" comes to the same ends with a similar means as a windfall profits tax.

Under Palin's plan, called ``Alaska's Clear and Equitable Share,'' oil company profits are taxed at a 25 percent base rate, up from the previous 22.5 percent. When the price rises to $30 over cost, or about $52 a barrel, the tax rate rises 0.2 percent for each dollar. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/...=home

Despite its name, the crude oil windfall profit tax . . . was not a tax on profits. It was an excise tax . . . imposed on the difference between the market price of oil, which was technically referred to as the removal price, and a statutory 1979 base price that was adjusted quarterly for inflation and state severance taxes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windfall_profits_tax

The only difference I see between the two is that one is based on the difference between the market price and the production price, and the other is based on the difference between the market price and a statutory price. To me it seems that they are splitting hairs over the name.

But I do obviously concede the fact that Alaska is not receiving any "windfall profits taxes".

I do also apologize for editing my post after you already responded to it, but I wanted to address your first point and didn't want to add another post (to my post count ).

[Eikon]

A beer to whoever can provide an example of the last candidate that acted like a normal American.

Dubya.

How do I collect?

Nope.. you're thinking of a billionaire, son of a President, who just happened to have a Texan accent. He's very much the opposite of Palin. She's truly a middle-class American. Sure in the past few years she and her husband have done very well for themselves, and are now most likely millionaires... But I think she's the first real middle-class, normal, American we've had in a very long time.

My thoughts: Can we just jettison BO and JM and keep JB and SP as our candidates?

What'd you guys think of the VP debates?

I sure do agree with you. I'd rather have either of the VP candidates in the Oval Office than I do with either BO or JM. I really do like Biden. I think he's a very experienced, intelligent man, with great character and good leadership skills. Too bad BO is standing in the way of us having a real leader. I guess he's just one heartbeat away though...

Speaking of one heartbeat away.

I saw a commercial on NBC last night during Leno's show that really pissed me off. It was damn offensive!!! I seriously wanted to get out of bed and go punch somebody. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRY3njcGgWUWho the *#$& do they think they are running smear ad like this? Why the hell do I care what a bunch of liberal retarded nurses in California think negatively about Palin?

We need campaign reform bad! It should be against the law for special interest groups to run smear ads. If they want to talk up their own candidate.. fine.. but to simply take smack against another... that's shameful! If BO wants to do that... let him man up and say those things. Same goes for the Republicans.. Special interest group ads are horrible!

[Eikon]

What'd you guys think of the VP debates?

Oh yeah... to the point at hand... what did I think of the debate:

I thought it was weak for both sides. I thought the moderator was terrible. I thought it was devoid of any real substance and fact. I thought Palin missed a chance to really show her stuff, but since the only reason anybody really watched the debate was to see if she'd be a disgrace to the Republicans (which she was def. not), it turned out just fine.

She wasn't more impressive than Biden, and most people think Biden did better, but all the "pundits" were talking about afterwards was Palin's performance. That's probably not fair to Biden, but it's the way it is.

I was really dissapointed with both candidates really...

They had a couple of hanging curves they could have hit out of the ball park, bu they both settled for a bunt down the third-base line.

I was very dissapointed with both parties answers on the Economic mess. It showed me that neither of them had a grasp on what's really going on, and that scares me because they were supposed to have been trained and prepped by the "best and the brightest" advisors.. which means that nobody in Washington really has a clue.

We've had a thread here on NICOclub about global warming that has far more intelligence than either of the candidates showed when they were asked that question. Palin really blew it on this one.. She said she was governer of the only arctic state, yet failed to show that she had any knowledge of the issue... she just gave a canned non-factual response.

Neither person gave any substantive answers on foreign policy either. Biden showed more savvy and knowledge by continually attacking McCain's similarities to Bush. That will surely win him points in this segment, and probably was main reason he's seen as having "won" this debate. He continually linked McCain to Bush and the fact that there is not a difference in planning on the war. I personally believe McCain and Bush are doing the right thing, but most of America does not agree, so points to the Dem's here.

The whole topic of "what should the role of a VP be?" and should the powers be expanded... What a stupid moderator! Get that crap out of the debate. Nobody cares! What a waste of time that was.

As for zingers... Biden failed miserably in my opinion on his "bridge to nowhere" comment. That is such a misunderstood issue. She killed the damn thing. If anything it's a feather in her cap rather than -1 for her. Why he chose to use that one-liner I have no clue. Most of the pundits highlighted her zinger about Biden looking at the past instead of forward.. that was mildly effective, but not a great zinger at all.

[spngr311]

My thoughts: Can we just jettison BO and JM and keep JB and SP as our candidates?

I was thinking the same thing after watching the debate. I will say this, I do not like Obama (almost every word out of his mouth sounds like something Stalin or Marx would say), but I do like Biden after the debate. While I may not agree with some of his views, I do have a good opinion of him.

[audtatious]

I do also apologize for editing my post after you already responded to it, but I wanted to address your first point and didn't want to add another post (to my post count ).

I must have made a clear and logical response that you accept. I do apologize for the post count remark. I personally realize that some grammar and analogy mistakes will happen on here dependent on when posts are made. The propensity for errors and non-clear thought (or the typing of clear thought) is directly proportional to the amount of time you have remaining before you have to leave or do something else

[Cold_Zero]

Who won the VP debates?Easy, the Philadelphia Phillies! Ha, watched the game instead and then was treated to the Cubs choking (again). I would flip back on commercials.

[AZhitman]

Biden failed miserably in my opinion on his "bridge to nowhere" comment.

I WISH she had said, "But Joe, you voted for it." ...and smiled.

Because, both HE and Obama DID vote for it, there's already been discussion here about it.

[AZhitman]

Greg you are a typical Arizona republican.

Oh no, my mistake, sorry Greg, I take that back.

Misread that. Thought he said jettison BO and Biden.

No problem brother. I'm FAR from a "typical Rep"... If you've not gathered by now, I'm a social centrist, very left on some social issues and very right on others. I AM a fiscal conservative, proponent of smaller government, hate the U.N. and world treaties, and probably a hard-line right-winger when it comes to foreign affairs and our military.

Like I said, I find it VERY hard to dislike Biden. I think a McCain / Biden or a Biden / Palin ticket would be solid. Obama scares the piss outta me.

[96Qowner]

What'd you guys think of the VP debates?

Good way to phrase the question - better than asking who "won" the "debate".

Because, first of all, it wasn't a debate. Unlike the McCain/Obama debate, there was very little debating - just the typical parallel position speeches and talking points, like almost every so-called political debate. I thought Ifill did a seriously mediocre job of moderating. "Would you like to respond, Governor?" "Would you like to respond, Senator?"

"Uh huh, as matter of fact, I would, Gwen, thank you so very much. May I do so now?" *groan*

Ifill was constantly going to another question before the current question was finished. Several of her questions were simply stupid, like whether the role of the VP should be broadened into the Legislative branch. Who cares??? Is this a pressing issue for the American people? Uh ... no. What do they think causes global warming? What difference does it make? What's the point of the question? Is this a pressing issue for the American people? Uh ... no. Ifill could have made them spend 10 minutes on what changes in economic plans would be necessary post-financial crisis. Instead, she let them both off the hook and went on to another question. Ifill could have made them actually nail down their tax and spending plans.

Immediately after they finished, I started flipping between CNN and FOX. FOX, of course, thought Palin "won". CNN, of course, thought Biden "won". The national polls say that Biden "won".

More importantly, tens of millions of people got a chance to see both of them answer questions for an extended period of time. It's unlikely that Biden surprised many people. It's QUITE likely that Palin surprised millions of people. I'm sure she set millions of people's teeth on edge with her speech patterns, and I'm sure she warmed the hearts of millions of people. The end result is that it was all about Sarah Palin, and to that extent, she was the winner, regardless of the dual recitations of policy positions and talking points.

Now, we'll see how much the polls shift in the coming days.